Saturday, May 20, 2006

Do Mormons Preach That You Must Get Past Joseph Smith And Have His Approval, To Get Into Heaven? YES, They do!! Also, Was That A Nativity Scene?!!

Hey guys, I spent a lot of time and wrote a lot of posts over in Mormon Discussions back in February, March and April and I wanted to bring the best of those posts here, to my blog, where they belonged and should have been in the first place.

I spent way too much time over there pretty much preaching to the choir or TBM Apologists, when my time is much better spent here with you guys, on my blog, where I can more easily connect and help people and find those that really need the help. Or, I should say, where they can more easily find me and the things that I have written.

I will be putting those posts here on my blog over the next several days, as I think they will be very beneficial to a much larger audience here and helpful to those that are seeking the truth about Mormonism. On Mormon Discussions, or any chat site for that matter, your comments, no matter how great you think they are, or how long you spent researching and writing the posts, only have a very short shelf life, or as long as that particular post is hot.

After that, they fade into obscurity and do nobody any good. If your main desire is to help a lot of people and that is your main goal; by not transferring them to a blog, you are wasting your time and not reaching the people you should be.

So, after the thread is no longer hot, as I mentioned, your comments are pretty much lost, unless someone goes searching for everything you've said or stumbles across them while browsing old posts. Here on my blog however, they are archived, easily found through searches of my blog and also found through Internet search engines, like Google and MSN, Yahoo, etc.

I strongly encourage anyone and everyone, that has a lot to say on different chat sites, regarding Mormonism, to start your own blog, so that your comments can do more people more good than they will on just the chat site. I think chat sites like Mormon Discussions, are great, I'm just saying, start a blog and transfer the best of your comments over to your blog and you may help a lot more people. I've learned this back in my RFM posting days and then again, in Mormon Discussions the past few months.

I sincerely apologize to my readers for my absence and neglect of my blog, which was also due to all of the work that I've been putting into my podcast and the technical issues that I was having. Everything seems to be resolved for the time being, so I'm back and things should return to normal.

Trust me when I say that I have been continuing to read, study and prepare future posts and podcasts and talk to a lot of different people and TBMS to find out how they are thinking, without them knowing where I stand. I can pretend to be a TBM really well, after 30 plus years of practice.

Anyway, this particular post was written in response to a poster, "The Real LSD", who didn't believe that the "Joseph Smith Nativity scene", was really any sort of nativity scene at all. In my response to "The Real LSD", I shared the quotes about Joseph Smith being "the only way into heaven" to try and help clarify, that the Mormons have deified their beloved Prophet Joseph Smith.

First I will share the original comment that pretty much started the discussion and begged my response and then I will share my responses and "The Real LSD's" responses. There were others that weighed in on the subject, but this was mainly a discussion or debate, between myself and "The Real LSD", since it was my assertion and original post that was under attack.

There were several people that agreed with "The Real LSD"(mostly TBM Apologists) and several that agreed with me.

The Real LSD said:

1st comment-I honestly don't see this as any sort of nativity scene.

2nd comment-Here are my comments about the scene in question, the placard and the comments...picking up on the spirit of Samuel:

It's not a nativity scene. It's a damn historical scene. It is no different than viewing Lincoln's cradle. Please try to get out more, okay? His stinking birthday is in December. The placard gives glory to the savior and encourages the viewer to think about the "messenger" that brought about the lousy restoration. If Moses were born in early December and the cradle was a basket...would we be having this inane conversation? I say no. I am no fan of Joseph Smith or the LDS church. Quite the opposite is true. I do see this issue as outright hype by critics. LSD

My response to the 1st comment entitled-Give me a break guys, it's a damn nativity scene!!:

First I want to say that I updated the post that "The Real LSD" posted here. It needed an update after the discussion going on here and for those that don't believe or consider the "Joseph Smith nativity scene" to be a "nativity scene." Just what the hell was it? What do you guys consider it to be? A coincidental, Joseph Smith, as a baby infant in his crib, in 1805, right after he was born scene? Give me a damn break!!

Anyway, I updated that post at the top, for those that are interested. Also, look up nativity in Websters, it may help you out a bit.

Also, here was a special Christmas tribute I did, to the greatest man to ever live on earth, according to himself of course. This link includes some amazing, stunning and beautiful shots of the plastic doll, I mean Joseph Smith, as a small infant, laying in his little crib, back in 1805, in Sharon, Vermont. Isn't he so cute and adorable? Oh man, it brings tears to my eyes!! PRAISE TO THE MAN!!

Here is part of a post I wrote on December 23rd, which was a 200th birthday tribute.

According to the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith deserves all of the praise he's getting this time of year. After all, we cannot be saved without him...

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him."- 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted

"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life."
- The Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Mag., Nov. 1998, pp.70-71

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"- The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought! But it is true"-The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91

"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312

(You see that TBMS and Apologists? That is where us antis or EX-Mormons, get the idea that we are condemned, and anti-Christs, or Sons of Perdition!! It came from one of your beloved Prophets of fraud!! At least we have laws now to protect us from "BLOOD ATONEMENT.")

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- The Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

"It is to be feared that in course of a century, some gifted man like Paul, some splendid orator, who will be able by his eloquence to attract crowds of the thousands who are ever ready to hear, and be carried away by, the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal of sparkling oratory, may command a hearing, may succeed in breathing a new life into this modern Mahometanism, and make the name of the martyred Joseph ring as loud, and stir the souls of men as much, as the mighty name of Christ itself. Sharon, Palmyra, Manchester, Kirtland, Far West, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Ramus, Nauvoo, and the Carthage Jail, may become holy and venerable names, places of classic interest, in another age; like Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, the Mount of Olives, and Mount Calvary to the Christian, and Mecca and Medina to the Turk."-

The Prophet Brigham Young, History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.40-41

These and other teachings are why so many people say the Mormon Church is not Christian:

What are non-Mormons to make of how Mormons adore Joseph Smith at Christmas time?
And you Mormons wonder why people think you worship Joseph Smith more than Jesus Christ, and are not Christians? I say that the Mormon Hierarchy are Smithians, not Christians!! Most TBMS probably aren't even aware of some of these teachings, but the fraudulent Mormon cult Hierarchy sure knows, don't they? For those that don't believe that last year was dedicated to worshiping Joseph Smith; you need to re-connect with reality!!

So have at it Bishop Lee and all you other pathetic Mormon Apologists. Explain to us Anti-Christs, how these statements aren't valid or how we are greatly exaggerating or distorting them. I can feel the crap rising already and the vultures are circling. Maybe Piranhas would be a better word describing someone like Bishop Lee. I can't wait to hear your ridiculous excuses and pathetic reasoning...

Here is the link to the video, for those that feel the desperate need to relive that great glory of Joseph's 200th anniversary party of his birth, once again:

I loved the choice of music for the show. They kicked it off with, "We thank thee O God for a Prophet", followed by "Joseph Smith's First Prayer", "The Seer, Joseph the Seer", then "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief", which John Taylor sang to Joseph before he was killed. Then, the choir went nuts with "Ode to Joseph" and then they brought it home with the all time favorite/cult classic, "Praise to the man." Now, that song is truly a CULT favorite with a strong CULT following!!

Good thing they don't and didn't worship him though, they were just "revering" him. I guess it's like the whole, "SACRED", not "SECRET" BS. When I went through the temple before the changes in 1990, it was SECRET!! Of course, that word, among a plethora of other things, including the penalties, was deleted by the Mormon God/Jesus/Adam, in 1990.

Of course, it wasn't really a "change", just an incredible, faith increasing/promoting moment, that both showed and proved, once again, that the Mormon Church receives modern day revelation from an ever changing God who kicks it on Kolob. It also had nothing to do with the 3,000 + surveys they sent out regarding what people liked and didn't like in the temple ceremony, did it?

That Mormon God sure is a funny dude, isn't he? You would think that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, perfect being, as he supposedly is, wouldn't need to constantly make so many changes and correct past errors and mistakes. I'm sure that he pretends to screw up and change things, just as a test and trial of everyone's faith, right? That would be the Mormon Apologetic spin.

Of course, it couldn't be his Prophets, Seers and Revelators that are screwing up, because they aren't EVER allowed to lead the Church astray, under any conditions. Adam...I mean God, would remove them before he would allow that to happen, right? Maybe when they spoke that BS on several occasions, they were just speaking as men, right? Of course they were....LOL!! Is it just me that's having a good belly laugh right now? Ha Ha!!

Please allow me to close with some incredibly inspirational and familiar words:

Praise to the Man

31243, Hymns, Praise to the Man, no. 27
(I love how they list it as a song to sing VIGOROUSLY....LOL!!)

1.Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2. Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872

Music: Scottish folk song

Best wishes everyone, especially those of you that are CULTISTS and don't even know it!! May you somehow, someday, wake up out of your brainwashed slumber and see the light and have freedom!!

Now, here was my response to the 2nd comment entitled-Are you serious LSD?:

"Real LSD",

Do you think that they ever even considered, for a second, setting up a "Jesus Nativity scene" in the Admin building, instead of a Joseph Smith "damn historical scene" that "is no different than viewing Lincoln's cradle." Well, since he was greater than Jesus Christ, according to Joseph himself, I highly doubt it!!

Maybe you need to get out more LSD!! Did you go down there and personally see it, as I did?

The placard states:

We are beneficiaries of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, a work which had its earthly commencement with the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith, in the hills of Vermont on a December day in 1805. As we commemorate the birth of the baby in Bethlehem, the Savior of the world, may we also remember his messenger, Joseph Smith and rejoice in his life and sacrifice.

Larry C. Porter-1978

LSD said:


The placard gives glory to the savior and encourages the viewer to think about the "messenger" that brought about the lousy restoration. If Moses were born in early December and the cradle was a basket...would we be having this inane conversation?

LSD, are you actually comparing Joseph Smith to Moses? For those Christians that believe in the Bible, that would be blasphemous!! Likewise, saying that he was greater than Jesus Christ(as Joseph Smith claimed), or second only to Jesus Christ(John Taylor), is equally blasphemous, to those that believe in Jesus Christ. I just hope that you aren't actually making that same comparison to Moses, as Kim Clark did, when Hinckley called him to be the President of BYU-Idaho and leave Harvard.

Kim Clark Post

(I actually got an Email from his Son on this post, who wasn't too happy, but was still very respectful and he just wanted to express how he felt)

First of all, the entire purpose of the scene, was glory to Joseph Smith, when it says, "We are beneficiaries of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, a work which had it earthly commencement with the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith, in the hills of Vermont on a December day in 1805."

Then it states, "As we commemorate the birth of the baby in Bethlehem, the Savior of the world, may we also remember his messenger, Joseph Smith and rejoice in his life and sacrifice.

First of all, according to the "most correct of any book on earth", Jesus was born in Jerusalem, not Bethlehem. OOPS!! Secondly, there is nothing to rejoice in, about this scumbag Smith, especially, his life and sacrifice. What sacrifice?

He robbed and defrauded people of their money(Treasure hunting, bank failure) wives and dignity, not to mention virginity(D&C 132), if you were one of his 14,15 or 16 year old wives. Joseph Smith was a criminal and a sick predatory pedophile, plain and simple!!

Also, worth mentioning, is that the quote they used, wasn't even something current from one of God's anointed Prophets or Apostles, rather a quote from the 1978 Ensign from an obscure guy named Larry C. Porter, (Ph.D. in History of Religion, Brigham Young University) who is Professor Emeritus of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University and someone that contributes over at our favorite place, DCP's playground, FARMS.

Deseret book

Wouldn't you think that God's current blessed, inspired "mouthpieces", could have come up with something on their own?

Did anyone bother to listen to the opening prayer of the "Joseph Smith is next to God" birthday party on December 23rd? Anybody notice how Packer Praised Emma as Joseph's WIFE, singular, with no mention of the other wives at all? They are truly living in a fantasyland of fraud and deception and they know it!!

Packer said:

Our holy father in heaven, on this sacred occasion, we thank thee for the privilege in being here and doing honor to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the restoration......

.......We remember as well, in this commemoration of Joseph Smith the Prophet, his wife, Emma Hale Smith, elect lady, his sweetheart, wife and mother of his children. We pray that uh, her memory will likewise be blessed......

Once again,
here is the link, for anyone that either needs to hear it again, to be able to engage and ignite your bosom, or for those that want to torture themselves.....LOL!!

Usually we agree on most things LSD, but to be honest, I have no clue why you can't make the connection on this one, when it's so obvious and clear. You have to consider the whole picture, the whole year, the birthday bashes and celebrations, the gigantic murals of Joseph Smith, kids dancing all over stadiums and then this "nativity scene." Would it be better to call it a "birth scene." Does that work? Like I said, maybe you are the one that needs to get out more, not me. Maybe the Fairboard is causing you to be sucked into the cult thinking and is melting your brain a bit....J/k!!

No hard feelings LSD, sometimes we just have to agree to disagree, and go our separate ways, as this is obviously one of those times. By the way, I know that you aren't a big Joseph Smith fan. If we can't agree that it is a "nativity scene", can we at least agree that it's ridiculous and tasteless, when they consider themselves to be Christians and deny "worshiping Joseph Smith?" By the way, what do you consider a "nativity scene" to be LSD? I'm just curious. Is Jesus Christ the only person that would qualify as a "nativity scene?"

Best wishes,


This was the next response by "The Real LSD":


I will answer you this way. I am simply telling you what I see. I see a historic scene commemorating the 200th anniversary of the December birth of a man whose theology and methods I strongly disagree with set up on a college campus.

If this were set up outside the temple, ward or stake, with no presentation of the birth of Jesus Christ, then I would take exception.

It is perfectly understandable to me that you strongly disagree with my opinion on this. Your views are based on years of service in the LDS Church which I have none, an awakening of awareness that led you to reject the church which I have not experienced and a sense of betrayal that I can only try to empathize with.

No, I have not been to BYU nor was I tuned in for any of the JS birthday celebrations. So yes, you know more about that than I do, though I do think I see the "big picture".

This much I know. I have LDS friends in real life and also LDS, ex-LDS and questioning LDS e-friends, all of whom I try to offer my friendship and respect to. Some are TBM's, some are uncertain about their church and some, like you, have become a strong voice of criticism of their former church, Craig Criddle (whom I've known for years) comes immediately to mind.

On this board, I very much appreciate your efforts and the intent behind them. I admire what drives your passion to expose the LDS church in order to influence people away from the church. On the other side of that is a Kerry Shirts, whom I also admire on account of his loyalty to his church and his willingness to devote his time and efforts to defending what he loves.

Are you asking me to choose between you? Samuel, I choose ALL of you. Each one of you, a Criddle, a Samuel, a Shirts, has something to offer me personally in understanding the LDS people and what drives them. You all are on different paths, that's for sure, but I have learned something about the people of Mormonism from each one of you. I wouldn't trade those insights for anything!

Do I need to agree with someone in order to support or admire their efforts? Ask Criddle or Shirts if I've ever disagreed with them or they with me. Disagreement isn't the end of the line between people, it is a chance to grow. Hopefully, as this board continues on, you and I will learn and grow from our participation here

I then responded with this post entitled-Thanks LSD:

It's all good LSD, no worries. I do have to say though, that this setup, was not just on "a college campus", it was "Jesus' personal college campus", the baby, pride and joy of the Mormon Church. As the "Road to Hana" mentioned; I didn't see any other "nativity scenes", setup on campus, namely one based on Jesus Christ. I know that they never had one when I went to school there and I didn't see one this past year, but maybe I missed it and somebody can enlighten us with "further light and knowledge."

Also, why would where it was setup, change what it actually is? It is what it is, right? That one confuses me. This is the "one and only true college of Jesus Christ", isn't it? Shouldn't the college that is owned and operated by Jesus Christ, through direct revelation to his Prophets, Seers and Revelators(aka-Board of Directors), place more emphasis on Jesus Christ, than Joseph Smith? Then again, it is named "BRIGHAM YOUNG" university, so maybe not. I guess it makes sense that they would put Joseph over Jesus, doesn't it?

The BYU mission statement says:


The mission of Brigham Young University--founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.

All students at BYU should be taught the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any education is inadequate which does not emphasize that His is the only name given under heaven whereby mankind can be saved. Certainly all relationships within the BYU community should reflect devout love of God and a loving, genuine concern for the welfare of our neighbor.

I would say that putting up a Joseph Smith "birth, nativity or historical birth scene", over say, Jesus Christ, at Christmas time, When you claim to be uber Christian, is a little peculiar, especially for a Church that says, in their personal college's "Mission Statement", "Any education is inadequate which does not emphasize that His(Jesus Christ) is the only name given under heaven whereby mankind can be saved." (Please re-read the Joseph Smith is the only way into heaven statement above, if any of you still believe that the Church believes it is only through Jesus Christ.)

I guess, that in reality, since they consider Joseph Smith to be so close to Jesus Christ, at least 2nd, but 1st, according to Joseph, that I guess it's a wash, as they are almost one in the same. That is what I'm talking about.

Just for fun, let me end with Joseph's greater than Jesus quote, which I never get tired of sharing. Of course, we all know that he really didn't mean that and was just "boasting", due to the specific group of people he was talking to, at the time. LOL!!


Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people.How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-412).

Isn't it just wonderful? Wasn't Joseph Smith just wonderful, next to deity, greater than Jesus Christ himself? Come to think of it, if he was truly that wonderful, according to himself and others, then he did earn and deserve that "birth scene" or whatever you want to call it, at BYU. I think they did the right thing and I stand corrected.....NOT!! Just having a little fun!! Of course, personally, I don't care what the hell they do, I'm just trying to hold them to their supposed, "We are Christians" standard and expose their hypocrisy to the world.

Take care LSD and best wishes. You are a great asset to this board and I also hope that you will be around for a long time. Trust me LSD and others, when I say that this church has destroyed and is still destroying and separating families everyday, as I write this very post in fact. As long as they continue to do what they do, mainly, sending out 50,000 + missionaries, to deceive and defraud people into their cult, through lies and deception, I will continue to do what I'm do, with the TRUTH.


And finally, "The Real LSD", responded with

Would you like me to argue this post with you, Samuel?


I felt no need to further the discussion, as I had said all that I needed to say and felt that I had made my point crystal clear. If after everything I said, you can't see it as a nativity scene; what can I do? In the end, of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I think the evidence is pretty clear and in my opinion, you'd have to be fairly dense or blinded, to not be able to see it for what it was...A DAMN NATIVITY SCENE!!

Take care everyone and it feels good to be back writing on my blog, which I love doing and I'll try not to be away so long again in the future. Thanks for your patience and Emails of support during this time!!

Samuel the Utahnite

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