Friday, March 02, 2007

Does The Mormon Church Literally Kidnap Babies And Children And Strip Parental Rights From The Fathers And Mothers? It Sure Looks That Way!!
















I received an awesome, incredible, revealing and tragic Email from Galatian, the creator and writer of the"Exposing Mormonism" blog. If you haven't checked it out yet, you all really need to, as it's great!! She wanted to tell her story and has chosen "Mormon Truth" as the place to tell it. I'm incredibly honored that she would want her story published here and I hope that it will help many of you out there that read it. Every time I think that I've uncovered everything there is and that nothing else will surprise me, something new comes along and I discover more skeletons, that I didn't even know existed.

I cannot believe what Galatian and her brother have been through, due to this evil Mormon cult and I'm sure that many of you will also be shocked, TBMs included. I cannot even imagine their pain or anguish and their story just fuels my fire and helps me understand even more, why I must do what I'm doing and expose this damn Mormon cult every chance I get.

So, here is Galatians story and we both look forward to your comments.

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I joined the church when I was 14. I lived in foster care and had a horrible upbringing filled with abuse, trauma and a lot of struggles. One day when I was home alone, two sister missionaries came to my door. After an initial conversation I let them in, and we had a discussion about the BOM. The sisters were so kind and gentle and sweet - they appeared almost angelic.

I, in a confused and miserable state, broke down in tears over their kindness and loveliness. They gave me a copy of the BOM and told me to read it and pray to see if it was true. Then they scheduled another time for a visit.

I thought about it, and could feel myself bursting with emotion. I was ABSOLUTELY SURE (even though I had never read it once) that the Book of Mormon was true. How could it not be? I felt wonderful, cared about, sought after, and these two women had been so incredibly loving and kind and filled with a gentle radiance about them that captivated me. How could it not be true? Of course it had to be!

From the very first visit, I was entirely positive that every word in the BOM was absolutely true. I was later praised for my unceasing faith, for not questioning, for my miraculous instantaneous testimony and conversion. Looking back on it ... I now see the reality.

I was miserable, lost, alone, confused and in horrible sadness. I was living in a bad situation, and then these two pretty, kind, sweet angelic-appearing women came to me, promising me that God loved me, that I was sought after for a special "truth" that 99% of the world didn't have, and that I could finally find love, acceptance, and the "right answers" in my life. It was just too appealing to turn down.

It was so good - it had to be true! I needed to believe. I desperately needed to cling to that hope ... that something good had finally happened to me. That God had sought me out and that everything would finally make sense!

Anyway, I'll quickly carry on here and skim through. Basically, I ended up having more and more discussions with the missionaries. We did it in secret (as my foster parents would disapprove) and I was very naive. I'd only just begun investigating Christianity less than a year earlier ... and I didn't know very much. To my uneducated mind ... this was Christianity. Wasn't it?

The missionaries "taught" me how to pray, the "true" history of Christianity and the scriptures, and the "extra" truths that no one else had. I felt so loved by them, so cared for, so wanted and important and special. As soon as the initial 6 discussions were done, the missionaries pressured me to be baptized. I wasn't ready and didn't want to quite yet, but I felt I had to. I agreed.

They told me I needed to get my parents' permission. So I told my foster parents who were greatly displeased and would not allow me to join the church. I was so angry at them! And yet again, it confirmed to me the validity of the church. If these horrible, abusive, mean people hated this church (and these two beautiful girls) and didn't want me to go -- it really must be a good thing after all !! I became even more desirous to join. They would not allow me.

Eventually I ended up running away from that foster home, and temporarily staying with my friend and her family (who were LDS members). I was relocated to another home, and ended up being baptized into the church at 15 years old. I was confirmed soon after. I was overjoyed to finally be able to take the sacrament, and to hear the "truth" and to be a MEMBER of the church legitimately at long last.

I'll skip all the years that follow because it would take too long to write at length about. Suffice to say, that my membership in the church wavered in and out. Some times I was active, other times I was inactive. This was due to bouncing around through different foster homes - and personal problems I had.

I often would fall into old patterns of behavior - drinking, doing drugs, etc. At other times, I would pull myself together and I would stop all negative activities, rid myself of bad acquaintances, and I would go to church. OH I TRIED SO HARD!!

I went to church before school (early morning classes), I went to activities, I went on Sundays, I attended the classes, I read my BOM for HOURS every night, reading it over and over. I studied, I prayed, I strived like never before to be good in God's eyes. But to no avail.

All the youth at church made fun of me and gossiped about me. I was a loner (no family in membership), I wore second-hand clothes and lived in a group home and they thought I was odd. They spread rumors about me that I was a "witch" and a "lesbian" and other cruel things. I felt unwanted, not good enough, second-class, and so I would go back to my old friends and ways.

Years passed with massive confusion. Despite my anger at the church youth, and some of my own questions/misgivings, I ALWAYS "KNEW" THE CHURCH WAS TRUE and never doubted for even a minute. I always thought that I was a terrible person for going inactive, and that I would surely burn in hell (or not make the celestial kingdom anyway) because I was always screwing up and making mistakes.

At times my heart was in agony as I thought about what a worthless failure I was, that didn't deserve to live, that would never make it to heaven and who was disappointing God and not as good as everyone else at church. And yet...my soul somehow felt relieved!

When I was out of church at times I felt happy, I felt GLAD not to be there...I felt somehow more free. And these feelings only confirmed to me what a horrible, unfaithful person I was that was destined to be punished for my disobedience and feel God's eventual wrath.

Fast forward to the age of 18. I was renting a place with two of my best friends. I had started going to church but then stopped again as I just sometimes couldn't face going. Oh I had stopped drinking and doing drugs, and I was doing nothing "wrong" but I just couldn't bring myself to go.

I felt worthless and it somehow felt wrong to be there.Keep in mind that during all of this ... I was always completely chaste. Despite my rebellions and mistakes, I always held chastity in the HIGHEST regards.

Having suffered abuse as a young girl, and having a proud demeanor of self-respect and dignity ... I had never even pursued the thought of anything "sexually sinful". The first time I kissed someone I was 17 years old! By 18, I was as chaste and well behaved as possible. I had stopped going to church -- but I still read my scriptures and "knew it was true".

After suffering through a difficult break-up with an ex-boyfriend (and many other things in my life) I met Steve. He lived down the street, and he was so handsome and kind. I fell in love with him almost instantly. We became friends, and then after my breakup, we began to date one another. I simply adored him and loved him with all of my heart.

At first everything was well, but little frustrations began to show. He despised my membership in the church, and was tired of me always feeling guilty about absolutely everything and being afraid of "being bad". And worst of all, I could not be physically intimate without feeling horror and revulsion and fearing for my eternal soul. (As I had read the old quotes by church leaders that it was better to die or be dead than to lose your modesty/chastity)

One night, I had sex with him for the first time. It somehow ... just happened. Afterward, I left his house and went home and cried. I cried and cried and cried. I felt so alone ... I couldn't even bare to talk to God.

For the next four days I stayed in bed and cried. I only left to go to the bathroom and then I would get back into bed. Steve would come by daily to visit and I would send him home. I refused to talk to anyone. I didn't tell anyone what happened.I lay there, in my agony, thinking of my eternal suffering and loss of the celestial kingdom.

I thought about what a worthless person I was, how I had disappointed God, what a terrible promiscuous whore I was and how I was unfit to be a member of the LDS church. I could never face going back now!

Eventually I got out of bed. Even though I was alone and numb and wanted to die (except I was afraid to because I would have to face God) I just went through the motions ... and I began to see Steve again. I gave up the church and going ... because I knew I was a terrible person, unfit for membership, doomed to the lowest levels of heaven -- and a horrible sinner bound for torment. I just gave up.

And so Steve and I resumed our relationship and continued being intimate. I felt confused. I loved him, I loved being close to him and everything that involved, and yet ... I felt so guilty and horrible and terrible. Surely I was a terrible person! Renouncing the very church of God for such sinful activities! I was doomed!

Later that year, I became pregnant. It was of course, an accident. I was in denial for a long time ...until finally I could deny it no more. At 3 months, the pregnancy was confirmed by a test and a doctor. I just wanted to die. I could not believe it! Here was ME, the renowned chastity queen, the total virgin, the one nobody even dared try to touch -- pregnant at 18!

And to think of all the times I had judged teenage mothers for being "sluts" and thinking they were no good, and spiritually deficient and fools - and here I was one!!!

I broke down and went back to church. I need guidance and support. Telling my bishop the truth was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I could barely squeak the words out. He looked disapproving, but was kind about it. He suggested that I see someone from the church as a support. I agreed. He set me up with a kindly older lady who was from LDS Family Services.

I began to see her constantly. She promised me that I was not going to be forced into a decision, but had to consider one myself. She told me to weigh the alternatives of keeping my son, versus giving him up for adoption. The choice was mine to make, she told me. So did the Bishop. I was so confused and I just felt in agony. I didn't know what to do.

As time wore on ... the pressure grew. At first it was subtle, but then it became almost outright at the end. The lady from LDS Services told me that she thought I should give my baby up, as I was too young and couldn't care for it properly - besides that, my baby needed a good two-parent home with temple worthy parents. Even the Bishop himself told me that I needed to give my baby up for adoption.

Soon everyone was pressuring me, telling me what to do, or at least telling me behind the thinly veiled guise of "advice" and assuring me it was still my "choice". I began to look for adoptive parents. I looked through books and books of parents that had been screened carefully by the church. Somehow it just didn't feel right - but I felt that I HAD to find the right set of parents.

It was God's will, I convinced myself. I looked and looked but could not make a decision. The pressure from everyone grew and grew until it choked my very being. Time was running short as the pregnancy grew further - and I soon began to feel desperate.

All the meanwhile, my poor soul suffered such suffering as is indescribable. Only if you have been in my position, can you understand. I was young, I was scared, I was in a vulnerable situation and grew more terrified as time wore on. I knew nothing of babies or being a mother. I was broke, I was alone, I was so confused.

Despite my fear, I loved my baby. I loved this beautiful person growing inside me so much that my heart ached. And I would cry and cry and cry myself to sleep every night. I would cry until my face swelled up and I couldn't breathe. What was the right thing to do???

Surely I wasn't worthy enough to keep this child, and YET ... I loved it with all my heart and the thought of giving it up to some strangers tore me apart and made me want to die. I wondered if I did it ... if I would end up dying of a broken heart, or committing suicide. And yet, I felt I had to.

Finally I chose an adoptive couple. They were both young. The mother was pretty, the father was handsome, and they had 2 adopted children already. They had been on missions to Japan, spoke Japanese, were wealthy with great jobs, and had the PERFECT LIFE so it seemed. These were the people, I was sure of it!

I gave my permission to contact them and they were notified of my decision. One of the things that bothered me though, was that they had specified that they were only willing to take a child that was 1/4 Native or Asian, no more.

So had all the other parents ... they only wanted Caucasian children, or children that were specifically no more than 1/4 of such and such a race. Some even specified they didn't want any non-Caucasian children. Such racism boiled my blood and disturbed me (hence we see the racism in the church playing out again!!).

My soul cried out in agony. I prayed and cried to God and begged him to affirm to me that I had made the correct decision. I had no idea what to do, and I told God that I only wanted to do what was right. Whatever the decision ... it needed to be the right one, and the best one for my child.

Things began to move forward and it seemed that this couple would adopt my baby. As I imagined the thought of them at the hospital, taking my baby from my arms and taking him home ... I would cry for hours nonstop. It felt so wrong ... and yet it must be God's will, right?

To help me with my decision, the lady from LDS services put me in contact with another woman who had been through this. Apparently, years ago, this woman had given her child up for adoption and was now a happily married, temple-going woman with 3 children. This conversation was supposed to ease my mind and help me realize I was making the right decision.

One day, this woman and I got the opportunity to speak. She lived in another province and we spoke by telephone. We made small talk, and then got down to the deeper issues. She told me her story, and how she had given her child up for adoption. She told me how she was now happily married with 3 more children, and how she felt that it must have been God's will and the right thing to do.

I then asked her if she was happy with her decision, or regretted it at all, or how she felt when she decided. What would I feel? Would I know that this was right too? How had she known?I'll never forget for the rest of my life ... that woman's voice. It began to crack and break and she began to cry as she told me how heart-wrenching it was for her, and how it had broken her heart.

The pain in her voice seared through my soul and I felt myself shaking and crying as she talked. She could barely speak above the quiet sobs and gasps. Her pain, even these 15 years later ... was so intense, so apparent, so tangible that it shook me to the core. We got off the phone, and I had the feeling that this woman was somehow broken inside and that she had hidden it from herself all these years.

I had a sick feeling in my stomach. I felt nauseated and terrified. I had a horrible feeling ... a suspicion in the back of my soul that this was not right. That somehow this was not right. If it was right ... why did I feel so sick? Why did I feel so coerced? Why did I feel so uncertain and why was I in so much pain?

I got down on my knees and I prayed to God for hours. I prayed like never before in my life. I said that I knew it was wrong to ask for signs, but that I NEEDED a sign to tell me that this adoption was the right course and the will of God. That it was "meant to be".

Only about 3 days later I got a call from LDS Family Services. I was told that the adoption could not go through. The couple had pulled out citing personal problems and a family emergency and needed to relocate to the United States right away. Due to many reasons, the adoption was not possible. I KNEW THIS WAS MY SIGN. Looking back on it all these years later, I realize that may have been a sign true ... but the real sign was the feelings in my heart and my soul that told me NO and fought against it every breath of the way.

During all of this, Steve was away. He had since moved to another city after our breakup, and I had eventually told him the news - which had stunned him. I knew he was also afraid and shocked. He asked me what I was going to do, and I told him I did not know. And during the course of all these months the LDS Family Services had plotted with me.

They told me that it didn't matter whether Steve agreed with the adoption or not -- they had ways to coerce him to agree, or to guilt-trip him or force him to agree. And if that did not work they told me, then they could secretly sneak me into Alberta (as I live in British Columbia) where I could give birth to the baby and give it to an adoptive couple. There were loopholes, I was assured, that could make sure Steve could never see his baby, or at least never get custody.

There were many sympathetic judges and cities where the Mormons always won custody battles and there were "many ways" that were told to me of how I could sneak off and deceive whomever I wanted.To be honest, all I wanted was for Steve and I to reconcile. All I wanted was for him to be a father and for everything to work out. But by that time, it was not looking like an option. Things were too badly damaged between us and the relationship did not appear to have a hope of being repaired.

Even to the end of my pregnancy I was being coerced, pressured and guilt-tripped into giving my baby up for adoption, fleeing to Alberta, etc. The pressure was unrelenting and pretty overwhelming. Finally at the end I put my foot down and unequivocally stated that I refused to give my baby away and that I was keeping my child.

I was terrified, but I felt a peace in my heart that I had not felt for the last 8 months. I knew it was the right decision. This was MY CHILD. It was conceived by the man that I loved. GOD had GIVEN ME this baby, and just because I was young, or single, or imperfect did not mean that I did not deserve to be a mother and love this child.

In July, 2003, I gave birth to my baby boy. He came out perfectly, with no problems. I named him Thomas. I hoped that I could raise him to 'be like God' and to be a valiant and good person. I believed that despite my flaws, I could do so. The woman from LDS Family Services was there, as well as one of my best friends: Angela (also a church member from my hometown city).

I suppose this is the part where I should interject and state a few things. Yes, I was pressured immensely. I was guilt-tripped, manipulated and coerced. I firmly believe that. But I would also like to add that a few of the people I dealt with (from LDS services) did not behave that way, and that some people were very fair and non-judgmental.

Also, despite her pressuring, the woman from LDSFS was very kind to me, and helped me out in other regards - financially, getting prepared, helping me every step of the way. I look back on it, and I don't think that any of them were bad people - I believe they only had the best intentions - but they are so brainwashed and consumed in the cult ... it's all they can see.

They honestly believe that single mothers are lesser people and don't deserve to have their children. They honestly believe that they are doing the right thing by pressuring mothers and taking away children. Maybe in some cases it is the right decision, but I believe that in most cases it is not -- it's not necessary, it's not "morally correct" or a superior solution, and that children are being taken from their vulnerable mothers every single day.

Anyway, I had my son, I took him home and I began to raise him. Things between myself and Steve had completely soured and despite my grievances with the church, it was very helpful to me during this time, and so were many members. (Although I attribute that to the personal kindness of my friends, not to the church itself)

Let's fast forward a bit here ... cause this is where it gets even more disturbing. During the next couple years that followed, I was on and off in my activity with the church. I still strived to be a good person and live by all its standards, I still read the scriptures and I occasionally attended, although more often than not I stayed home.

I always felt judged at church, and out of place, and it somehow felt wrong to be there. I didn't feel the 'Spirit' anymore, and I was beginning to have questions. I had another friend who told me flat out that the church was wrong, and had told me to read the Bible. I had read the New Testament and the more I read it, and studied, researched and investigated, the more I began to get a sinking feeling that the church was not true. But I refused to believe it.

I lived in denial and continued to push all the bad feelings and thoughts and instincts away. THIS WAS THE TRUE CHURCH! I KNEW IT! And one day I was sure I would atone for all my sins, and become the wonderful molly-Mormon and finally fit in and be good in God's eyes again.

Michael had just turned two years old. Steve and I had reconciled, although it was rocky at best. I still loved him like a love-crazed teenager, and we tried our best. He was still sickened and repulsed by my membership in the church although he did his best to be patient about it.

One day, I got a call from my younger brother. He was deeply grieved and worried. It turns out that his girlfriend (18 years old) had accidentally become pregnant. She and her family were MORMON. They had broken up, and now things were really becoming dramatic.

It turned out that although they were members, like so many LDS people they were complete hypocrites. His girlfriend Jenny drank, did drugs, partied and thought the church was complete BS. Her parents fought, and her dad was abusive physically and did cocaine. That, among with many other issues and problems. All the meanwhile, they held callings in the church, dressed perfectly and attended on Sundays, and 'behaved as acceptable Mormons' outside of closed doors.

Now Jenny had been intimate with my brother (a non member and atheist) and the pregnancy had been the result. She was afraid and confused. She did not want to keep the child as she felt she could not be a mother so young, and could not afford to live on her own. She also did not want the child to grow up in her abusive, dysfunctional home. She also wanted the child to have a two-parent home with all the the necessary support and proper care.

At first she lied and denied the pregnancy. But through sources, my brother found out about it. Then she admitted to it, but refused to state that my brother was the father. Finally she gave in, and admitted that he was. She then wavered with her considerations on what to do.

Sometimes she seemed to want to keep the baby, but she also changed her mind constantly. My brother told me that her parents were pressuring her to give the baby up for adoption, and that she had been seeing people from LDS Family Services who were counseling her to do the same.

My brother had offered to take custody of the child, but Jenny refused his offer. Her parents and LDSFS also vehemently denied his offer. My brother was afraid and worried and didn't know what to do. He loved his child and desperately wanted to have custody and keep his baby.

I was immediately concerned. I knew about the resources at the church's disposal. I knew of its scheming, conniving and barely-legal ways. I knew what my brother was in for. I began to give him advice and instructions at once. I told him everything I knew and gave him all the ammunition I could. He immediately got lawyers and began legally doing everything he could to prepare for the birth and ensuing court case.

All the meanwhile LDS Family Services harassed him, and tried to guilt-trip him, coerce him and used scare tactics to try and make him submit. He continually refused to sign any papers, make any agreements or consent in any fashion to the adoption.

By the end, Jenny had decided to give her child up for adoption and had chosen a birth family. As much as the church harassed my brother, they could not make him give in.

Jenny lied about the birth date and gave birth to a baby girl in September 2005. My brother would never have known except that a mutual friend felt guilty and told him the truth. He tried to see his daughter in the hospital but was not allowed and dragged out. I later tried to return with him again, citing his rights and the insanity of the situation - but we were not allowed to see his daughter, and unbeknownst to us, Jenny had already left the hospital.

All the meanwhile I had tried to be calm, rational and fair. I had tried to contact Jenny and her family and explained to them that I was also a member of the church. I tried to meet with them, or talk to them, or work out a meeting with their Bishop. I was ignored and shunned by everyone. Later I was told that I was mocked, as I was a single mom and not a 'good enough Mormon' (which is rich - coming from that family!).

I offered to have my brother live with me, and to help him raise his daughter. Steve and I had broken up, but I had graduated college and had a high-paying job, nice house, and most importantly I had parenting experience and felt I could help my brother in any way necessary. Plus I loved my niece.

I did all I could. I helped my brother, consulted with him, helped his lawyers, and I even wrote affidavits and tried to patch things up through the church. As UNBELIEVABLE as it is -- I STILL THOUGHT THE CHURCH WAS TRUE. Yes that's right. I still believed it, and much to my brother's disgust and irritation, I would continually defend the church citing that it was the TRUE church. Instead I blamed Jenny and her family.

I blamed a few over-zealous people in LDSFS who I felt were wrong, but doing what they thought was right. I still, even then, was so brainwashed that I thought it was God's true church on earth and that my brother was somehow just having a bad experience with a few bad apples.

After Jenny gave birth to my brother's daughter, she secretly fled to Alberta. There, my niece was given to the adoptive couple. My brother was not notified, had not given his consent, and could not find his daughter as LDSFS hid the location from us. We only found all this out by going through the court.

The court case ended up having to be moved to Alberta, and to Lethbridge city (one of the places I'd been told was "sympathetic to the Mormon cause") and to a sympathetic judge. After endless battles in court and much arguing-the ruling was handed down.

My brother had lost his case. He had lost his daughter. I had lost my niece. The adoptive parents were given full custody of her. To this day, I don't even know how this was possible. My brother was the BIOLOGICAL parent of that girl, NEVER gave consent for her adoption, and fought every step of the way. How he lost...I don't know. The only thing I can surmise is that it was made possible by the LDS church's tactics. Firstly, Jenny and her family got free lawyers and everything they needed paid for by the church.

Secondly, the LDS church dragged my brother's good name through the mud, and mine too! Earlier, my brother's friend had been killed. He'd been stabbed nearby a bus stop and died in my brother's arms - while he tried to save him. The LDS church went out of its way to portray my brother as a no-good loser and even insinuated (practically claiming outright) that my brother had been the killer or somehow at fault for the stabbing!!

They tried to portray him as a drunken, drug addicted murderer who was unfit to parent. They also claimed that because we'd grown up in foster care that we were mentally and emotionally unstable and did not understand how "families functioned normally" and were unable to parent. They personally dragged my name through the mud as well for daring to help my brother. They said that I was broke, on welfare, a single mom and that I was an unfit parent.

I fought back with testimony and written affidavits explaining my education, job, living circumstances and history with my son. The LDS church went so far as to investigate both myself and my brother and tried to bring up every single possible negative or piece of gossip/dirt that they could find!

A few interesting things to take note of: firstly, some of the people taking my niece away from my brother were some of the same people I had dealt with through LDSFS and even though they were bound legally by privacy policies, they knew all my personal information and history with my son, confessions, etc. These same people that had tried to convince me to give up my son-were now helping take away my brother's daughter.

Secondly, they managed to win in court even without my brother's consent, without proving any of the lies/mud they slung at either of us, and even though they had effectively kidnapped my niece. They helped transport her to another province, hid her from my brother, and refused to tell her whereabouts. Isn't that kidnapping? Especially when my brother is biologically the father and has done nothing abusive or illegal? How did that not become an issue???

Thirdly, even though I myself was a member and explained that in court and even said I would help raise the little girl in the LDS church - I was still mocked and judged because I was a single, unmarried mother and because my family was not Mormon.

I'm sad to say that my brother lost his case, lost his appeal and nothing has been done since. This September it will be 2 years since his daughter was born. He has not seen her once and is not allowed visitation. He has not been sent any photographs or letters by mail, nor has he been updated on her condition or life. He has not seen her, or heard anything about her EVEN ONCE.

My heart aches for my niece. And every time I picture her and my son playing together and all the time we're missing with her...my soul aches. I can't even imagine what my brother must have gone through.

During the course of his case, my brother sent out emails. He tried to get all the help that he could from anyone possible. Something very interesting happened with that ... he sent out a chain letter. (You know, those chain emails you get in your inbox, with stories that you're asked to forward??)

He explained his whole story and what was happening, and he asked everyone to forward the email to 10 other people. To prove its authenticity he even included his number on it.Then something happened ... my brother began to get phone calls and emails from all over the world.

People showed their support and voiced their dismay over the story. But even more importantly he got STORIES BACK from all over the world (but particularly the USA) of parents this has happened to! It turns out that all over Canada and the US... every single day...parents are losing their children to the LDS cult. He heard hundreds of stories from Mormons, former Mormons, non-Mormons about how they had lost their children.

In so many cases, the church had just taken the children to another province or state and they had never seen their child again. Or the church had overwhelmed them in court with unlimited money and lawyers and PR and they had lost their children. Or mothers had consented to adoption (from pressure and guilt and force) and changed their minds only to have the LDS cult refuse to return the children, or find a legal loophole to keep them from getting their children back.

Countless fathers had been lied to, conned, out-manipulated, out-spent, or just plain had their children kidnapped from them. Especially non-LDS men who wanted to keep their children but never had a chance. THIS IS HAPPENING EVERY DAY!

Look, I know in some cases it is good. I am sure there are great LDS adoptive parents (I even know some) and maybe it was the right choice in some cases. I'm not saying the option shouldn't be available. What I am saying, is that the LDS church pressures mothers under unbearable guilt and sometimes force-to give their children up.

And that the church uses loopholes and barely legal (and UNETHICAL) ways of winning custody of the children from fathers or mothers or both. And that EVERYDAY children are being literally kidnapped and taken to different states or places and hidden from parents - and then given to adoptive parents who are privy to this crime.

I'm not saying this happens in every single case. But from what I learned from my brother - this is happening to hundreds of thousands of people every year in Canada and especially the USA.

That is WRONG and IMMORAL and should be illegal and stopped. That is why I wrote this to you Samuel. I believe that people ought to know about this, and that someone should be investigating the LDS Family Services and their conduct in cases, their financing (of lawyers for members, etc) their tactics and legal maneuvering, and the legality of fleeing with children to other states, and of taking children without parental consent or knowledge.

Yes most ex-Mormons or non-Mormons know about all the other dirty skeletons in the LDS closet, but most people don't know about this one. And this is a BIG ONE. These poor children don't have a say. These poor parents who have been conned, out-spent, out-maneuvered and lied to and stolen from-they don't have a choice!

AND HOW CONVENIENT FOR THE MORMON CORPORATION that these little children will grow up in Mormon families-being indoctrinated their whole lives and paying tithing and growing up and having more little Mormon children ... and thus bringing in new generations of faithful cult members. These poor kids don't stand a chance!

It really just boils my blood. It really does. It makes me sick to my stomach. To think that the massively wealthy Mormon corporation/LDS cult is stealing children and lying and outspending poor single parents or dads who are desperate to KEEP THEIR OWN BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN! I mean WHAT WON'T THIS CULT DO??? Obviously nothing, as we know. They are sick, sick, sick bastards.

It's amazing what this world has come to when parents can't even keep their own children and can be out bought and out PR'd by a CULT in Christian guise.

Anyway, you'll be shocked to know that during all of this I was still so brainwashed (this is the power of the cult) that I still believed the church was true! Even after my niece had been stolen! I blamed individuals and circumstances instead of the cult itself.

But it was the straw that broke the camel's back...I wondered how this could happen? I wondered how God's true church could do this? I wondered how the Spirit could have guided these people to do this? How could it have happened? And it got me thinking, and wondering. It started me on a journey of personal reflection.

I remembered my friend and his Bible challenge...and how I'd begun to learn the truth but had been afraid and ignored it. I remembered all my questions and inquiries that had been pushed down. I remembered all the hypocrisies and oddities I had repressed in my own mind and never explored. Everything began to come back with a vengeance. I remembered my own experiences with my son-the scare tactics, guilt, pressuring, and the sneaky, oily way the church Family Services operated.

I thought back to how I'd never been happy, never been good enough, how I'd lived my life in fear and guilt. I thought about how suicidal I was when I first lost my virginity and when I had almost given up my son. I thought about everything long and hard.

And then I began to research. And I learned the truth and the scales fell from my eyes. I learned about Joseph Smith's masonry. About his polygamous wives. I learned about Brigham Young's racism and his killing squads. I learned the TRUTH about the Mormon pioneers, the MMM, the way the BOM was really translated. I learned and learned everything I could. I researched.

Initially I only researched to REASSURE myself that the church was true. I still believed it was true, but I had unsettling doubts in my heart and a sinking feeling in my soul. I knew I had to be rid of it - so I needed to reconfirm the church's authenticity. That was my intention. I figured that everything that had happened to myself and my brother was because we weren't good enough people, or were being punished, or it was just God's will.

I even thought (I hate to admit it now) that maybe this was happening to my brother because he wasn't Mormon, or because other Mormons were more faithful than I was.

But the research and honest analysis proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church is a fraud. I learned about JS and the fake papyrus translation, the plagiarism, his pedophile ways, the changing stories, why he really died and everything surrounding all the history and lies I'd been told.

Needless to say I was stunned and horrified. I cried and couldn't believe it had all been an illusion. For YEARS I had been in a cult and living a lie. I'd been brainwashed, manipulated, and it had all been a lie. I can't even describe the absolute terror and horror and loneliness of that moment. I've never felt so confused and alone and scared in my whole life (save it be my pregnancy).

That was roughly one year ago. So here we are now. I am now an ex-Mormon who knows the truth about the cult and tries to expose it however I can...especially to my best friends that are still in it. My brother has lost his daughter and will never see her until she's 18. Even then, she'll be a brainwashed Mormon dedicated to the cult. I'm so enraged that she's going to grow up in this cult!

I am doing OK. My son is well enough, and yes, we've had struggles and hardships. It hasn't been easy. I've been frustrated and overwhelmed at times. But together, we've made it through. I love him more than anyone, more than life itself. He's been worth every minute of it. Every tear, every sorrow, every irritation, every single moment good or bad - he's been worth it. And I will love him for the rest of my life with the kind of love no one can understand. He is my angel.

I am 23, he is turning 4 this summer, and we are doing OK. I know that one day I will get married and have a good family and an amazing life. And I don't regret keeping him for one second. And I never will. When I think back to the way the LDS cult almost manipulated me into giving him away (despite my reservations and sorrow) and how willing they were to steal him from Steve and be complicit in kidnapping him to Alberta--it makes me shudder to think of what could have happened. I was so close to losing my son. So close.

And other women that aren't as strong or stubborn as me have probably lost their children and don't have them today. I think back to that broken voice on the phone...and I feel so sad for her. I'm so grateful to have my son.

I look back...and I see it all now. I see it all so clearly. I see the way I was CONVINCED the church was true, and the way I bought into it all. I see a young girl that needed friendship and guidance. Who was curious about God and the answers to life...and who got charmed into a cult, because she didn't know any better. I needed to believe. I needed it.

I see the way for years I lived in guilt and terror. The way I hated myself and always felt second-class. I see the way I suffered and how much of my youth it really did steal from me.

I look back at the situation with Steve. I can't blame the church for all my problems, or all my conduct, or every consequence - but I see how it contributed. I see how it helped ruin my relationship with one of the people I've loved the most in my life. The way it helped split us apart. The way it emotionally damaged me. I should have been overjoyed to find love. I should have enjoyed intimacy and sharing myself after an abusive childhood. Instead I was suicidal and horrified and scared of eternal punishment and being a rotten person not fit to live.

I see the way it has mentally, emotionally and spiritually damaged and scarred me. It will take years to recover. And people wonder why I'm so upset?? They wonder why I speak out against the church? They wonder why Samuel does? IF ONLY THEY KNEW!!

I see the way the church almost stole my son. I see the way they stole my niece. I see the way they lie, manipulate, brainwash, re-write history, steal children, steal money (tithing), and pretend to be Christian when it is anything but.

Now I see people that I love...still obsessed, still consumed, still fully brainwashed and dedicated to the cult...paying their hard earned money (so the church can buy malls and pay to steal kids), wearing 'magical underwear', taking satanic/masonic vows and rites in a fake temple, and reading silly books that were made up and have been PROVEN to be frauds. Yet the cult continues.

That is why I wrote this email. I hope you will share it. This is my story of my involvement with the cult. I know it's long. I tried to keep it short and skimmed through it - but such a tale does need telling and can't be confined to a few paragraphs. This is a synopsis of the 8 years that the LDS cult stole from my life.

It's the tale of two children--one that was nearly stolen, and one that was. It's the tale of how that cult hurt me, and damaged me, and made me live in terror and guilt.

I won't deny their are some good things about the church. There are good people. And on the outside it looks like a respectable, goodly Christian organization. But if you dare to scratch beneath the surface...the layers begin flaking off, and you discover the truth. It is a cult. It is a bad one, only an illusion of goodliness and Christianity.

I know the truth and I won't stop telling a single soul until I die. And I personally consider it one of my missions in life to help bring down the LDS cult in my lifetime.

I hope that those who might happen to read my story will discover the truth about the fraud and cult that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I hope that any young mothers out there will know that they deserve to keep their children, and that there is nothing wrong with being a single parent if you are doing your best and love your child. Please know you don't have to give your child away.

This is not God's church, and it isn't God's will. You're not bad for getting pregnant, and we're not evil sinners for making love, or having a beer, or not paying tithing, etc. I hope and pray that the LDS cult will be stopped, and that no one else falls victim.

Lastly, I sincerely wish that someone would investigate LDS Family Services. While it may do some good, it also works in secret codes of silence, suppression, force, manipulation, and literally is kidnapping countless children with absolutely no one to answer to.

It's pretty difficult for a parent or parents to stop a multi-billion dollar corporation/cult with endless resources, money, and a mega PR and spin doctor machine/ campaign. It's absolutely stunning that this is happening. Someone needs to stop it, and these poor parents need to be helped.

Like the ones that phoned/emailed my brother - they feel helpless. They don't have the money or backing to fight the church, they can't find their children, they lose in court and they have no one to turn to. Let's never let this happen to another parent again.

As for my brother...he is doing okay. He was very depressed and suicidal for awhile, but he has pulled himself out of it and is managing. He has a good job, some good friends, and I've moved close by him. We are close and see each other very often. He hopes to one day see his daughter, and says that eventually he wants to have more children when the time is right and when he's with the right person.

All I can say now is: I urge everyone, everywhere, to leave the LDS cult, to investigate the TRUE FACTS and to help others still caught in the deception. This organization is even more evil than most of us know...

Galatian

=======

Thank you again Galatian, for having the strength and courage to share your experience with Mormon Truth readers and the world and for trying to help others, so that they don't suffer what you and your brother have. Some people would have just wanted to move on with their life, but I salute you for trying to make a difference.

Give your brother our best as well, as I cannot even begin to comprehend his pain, after what the Mormon cult has done to him, his daughter and your neice. I'm still stunned, saddened and sickened by what he has gone through and still going through because of this damn Mormon cult.

Hopefully someone out there reading this story, will be able to know what to do legally, to help your brother or some Attorney will volunteer their services to help him. If anyone can do this or knows someone that can, PLEASE step forward and try to right this wrong and heal the heart of this young man, his daughter and sister. This a great injustice and it needs to be resolved by somebody, somehow.

I'm sure that you will all be in Mormon Truth readers thoughts forever, after reading this post. I know that I'll never forget it, as it has had a lasting, powerful impact on me and re-confirmed how important what I'm doing here is and to never give up, because too many people and families are being destroyed and ripped apart by this damn cult called Mormonism, every single day!! They are ruthless and show no mercy and have no plans on ever stopping; so neither do I.

Thanks yet again Galatian, you're the best and know that you or your brother, always have a place to come, if you ever need to share your pain or need people to support you in a time of need!! Think of us here in Mormon Truth as your extended family.

Samuel the Utahnite

Labels: ,

94 Comments:

At Friday, March 02, 2007 11:13:00 AM, Anonymous Jason said...

Wow Galatians,
I was really shocked when I read your story. I mean, this is not only brainwashing of members to believe nonsense (which most churches do!), but they are criminals performing crimes.

Have you ever considered bringing this to a wide public? I think this is not only interesting for Samuel's readership, but for a greater public.
Maybe you can find a TV-journal sending an episode about this.

I suppose that especially since Mitt Romney wants to become president, people might be interested in the illegal practices of Mormon Inc.

And maybe, other parents will also bring their story to the public.

Wouldn't that be a great thing, to show the world what crimes are performed by the "Lord's Church"?

I encourage you to publish this to a greater audience. This blog can only be the beginning.

My heart goes out to you, Galatians.
And thanks, Samuel for posting this mail. The truth will prevail !!!

Jason

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 11:49:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Galatian...

Thank you for sharing this. I'm sitting here at work reading your story. I don't know what to say. I'm in shock. I have to admit that growing up in the church, I've never heard any stories about adoption. I have heard that sometimes a bishop will encourage the mother to give up the child to adoption. But, after hearing this, my heart aches for you and especially your brother. Having children of my own, I would never, ever wish this pain on anybody. I just am floored knowing that the church is capable of responding like this....
I wish to express my sincere apologies for the pain and suffering you and your brother have gone through. I don't condone any action like this. I would hope that this is just the result of certain corrupt individuals within high positions in the church but, who knows. In any event, this is great knowledge for all of us to have. If more people, within and without the church, know about this, maybe it can be prevented in the future...

Mark in Boise.

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 1:51:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

A truly heart breaking story. I thought I had heard all of the sad ex-Mormon stories but this one takes the cake. It is pure injustice that this organization thinks it has the right to take children away from their biological parents. The mother might want to adopt, but what about the father? Even if they are not married or Mormon, the church has NO RIGHT to take away the rights of the biological father.

I agree 100% with Jason. Take it public. Show the world what this "only true church" is really doing in the background. Bottom line, they are getting every kid possible recycled into the church to produce more little mindless TBM tithe payers, furthering their own ajenda.

Not only is it wrong that they shut out the non-Mormon parent and give them no say at all, what about the needless guilt and shame they heap upon the mother? They feast upon the mother's emotions and self loathing to manipulate her into doing whatever they want... again, getting that baby recycled into a "good Mormon home".

And they claim they are all about family. Bullshit!

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 9:26:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

Samuel,

Thanks once again for your support and encouragement. I appreciate you posting my story, and I hope that whether or not it generates a significant response - that it may touch some people out there. For some, it may help them see the light of truth regarding Mormonism. For others, it may help relieve pain as they realize others have been through this situation and suffered too. Perhaps there is a mother out there who the article may help, either presently or in the future. All I can hope is that it reaches people and helps to impact them in a positive way.

So thanks again. You are one in a million pal =)

Btw, I am sorry I missed the Thursday Skypecast. I don't usually get home from work until 6 pm PST. I don't know if the sessions are 1 or 2 hours, but I hope to be able to make them in the future.

Thanks for all you do, and I will be working on some new articles in the near future, to help you and all the others - in exposing this cult!

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 10:53:00 PM, Blogger typh34 said...

galation,

Ray said "A truly heart breaking story. I thought I had heard all of the sad ex-Mormon stories but this one takes the cake."

I have to agree. This is the saddest ex-Mormon story I have heard in years. I wish you well in your recovery. I wish the best for you and your son. I can understand why you thought the missionaries were so appealing. You didn't sense they were deceiving you because they believed their message and it gave you hope for something better. That is the trap with the church. I'm glad you are free. You've done nothing wrong. You have saved your son from a life of emotional darkness. I hope your brother wins his battle.

Thankyou for sharing, and thanks for your part Samuel.

Typh

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:39:00 AM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:58:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow! What a shocking story. After I read this I went to the LDSFS website and one of the frequently asked ?s was:
Do I have to tell the birth father about the baby if I place for adoption?
This was their response:
Laws vary by state. It is important to be informed and learn about both your rights, the baby's father's rights and any grandparent's rights in your state of residence. A counselor can help you access this information.

E.M.

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish my mum had givne me up for adoption. I'm 13 and my whole life the only thing I've seen her do is struggle and work. She's always tired and it breaks my heart and makes me feel so guilty because I know I'm the reasen she has to work so much. I know she loves me. I just wish she had loved me enough to give me to a family with a mum and a dad. I would give anythign to come home from school and have someone who loves me waiting for me at home. I hate coming in to an empty house. She keeps promising it isn't going to be like this forever but it isn't going to ever change. She doesn't have time to finish school so she just keeps working. I love my mum but sometimes I hate her becuase she did this to my life. But I know she did it because she loves me and thought it was right. Your son is lucky you got to go to college and get a good job. I don't know about mormans exept my friend is supposed to be one but they don't go. Its sad about your neice, but maybe this is better for her. Tell your brother people are praying for him and your neice to find happiness.

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ A mormon apologist in disguise. They're so pathetic.

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:53:00 PM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 1:41:00 AM, Anonymous Angry Guy said...

No, he/she is a 13 yo boy/girl who has no relationship to "Mormanism" and miraculously came to this website by accident.
The bad orthography proves that it was written by a youngster, doesn't it?

Sorry, little boy/girl, but we don't buy your story, and I have to agree, it IS pathetic, and you disgust us because you mock the tragedy of Galatian's original story.

As if a child would ever think about leaving his own mother and growing up in a family.

Coming from exactly the same background
(my parents divorced when I was 4, my Mom had to work the whole day, so I had to stay at my grandparents or later come back to an empty house), although it was not ideal and I didn't like it, I never thought to leave my Mom only to live in a more ideal family.
That is nonsense, and it is pathetic.

Hey, "Morman", your church is all about families, so why do you destroy mother-child relationships???

Angry!

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:43:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

If I may, I would like to direct everyone's attention to the comment section of the previous blog talking about the upcoming Skypecast conference.

We have a fanatical Christian "nutjob" spreading his flith about how murder is okay and Calvary Christian Church is the only true church and how you will burn in hell if you don't join it and pay your tithes.

This one got overlooked because it wasn't the top blog for very long but I think everyone needs to go there and see what this nutcase is saying. It appears as if this CCC is an even worse cult than the LDS church, and apparently they believe it is okay to murder anyone who doesn't obey them.

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:02:00 PM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

Hey everyone. For those who are not familiar with me, my name is Eric Hoffman. I run a small ministry called "One Living Truth." I received an email from you, Ray. But you gave me a new email address and I am not sure to trust it is really you. So I will post what you wrote here.

Before doing so, I will let everyone know that the poster in the previous post (Samuel's Skypecast post) in the comments area has called himself "True Christian." This person is dishonest, unstable, and lost in his own identity.

He has posted on my forums under the following names for the past YEAR:

-Danny
-True Christian
-Jane Winsley
-Christian
-Peter
-Don
-Christoph
-Scientist
-Martin
-Dharma12 (who has posted here as well)
-Jeremy
-James
-Chuck Smith
....the list goes on!! There are more, but I think you get the point. This person has posed as a Buddhist, Mormon, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Christian (both emergent and conservative). It seems that this person is sincerely insecure and needs help.

So...the email that "Ray" supposedly just sent me goes as follows:

"Eric,

It is me, Ray. Please use this email when writing to me from now on.

I have an important question to ask you and I would like a sincere answer. Just recently there has been an individual over on Samuel's blog (it could be you as far as I know) claiming that, get this, YOU are Jesus reincarnate.

This person then goes on to state how you are so faithful that you would be willing to follow the word of god to the extreme and murder your own child if they rebel. Dtn 21:18-21

My first question is, are you claiming to be Jesus reincarnate?

My second question is, are you truly prepaired to kill your own child if they do not follow your religion exactly?

Please answer these questions thoroughly.

Keep in mind that no matter what answer you give, your pure word of god which is flawless (Proverbs 30:5-6), says you should kill your rebellious daughter. But what about Deut 5:17 which simply states: "Thou shalt not kill."?

Do you see the flaws in the Bible, Eric? One passage tells you to kill, then another tells you not to kill.
First of all, how can you not see the contradiction when it is so clear? Secondly, in spite of this and other obvious contradictions, how can you continue to believe that this book is inspired of god? Thirdly, how can you believe in a god who authored such a flawed book? I mean, if god is all knowing, why does he give conflicting commandments? Why would any god instruct humankind to kill their own children?

If this is a true commandment, why did Jesus eat and talk with sinners? Why didn't he just kill them all?
And if killing is a sin, then god is a sinner because he not only teaches his follwers to kill, but has killed himself many times (great flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, fire from heaven that killed Baal's priests, Red Sea drowning the soldiers of Pharoah, etc). Your god is a murderer, Eric. And I want nothing to do with a hyprocritical, murdering god.

Simple logic:

- According to god, murder is a sin.

- But god murderes.

- Therefore, god is a sinner.

- God is Jesus.

- Jesus is a sinner.

- How can a sinner save us from our sins?

More Logic:

- god is god

- god says murder is a sin

- god murders

- god is a sinner

- god cannot sin

- therefore, god is not god

Eric, how do you explain all of this? Can't you see the lie that is Christianity? Why don't you get over the need to condemn everyone to hell when your own scripture proves that god is a sinner and a liar.
Rejoice in the good of people and stop the condemnation. God hasn't called you to be his one and only true messenger because your god doesn't even exist. You and your Calvary Church believe that murder is okay. Doesn't that strike you as being slightly odd? Even cultish?

I can tell you are an intelligent person who is very level headed and thoroughly thinks things through.
That is why I am so amazed that you have not noticed all of the obvious flaws in Christianity; and why you continue to believe fairy-tales and superstitious nonsense. You are living in a dream world; one which doesn't even exist.

It's like me telling you that I am a true Jedi Knight, that I really have the force and I have a light-saber.
You know that's ridiculous because Starwars is just a story... Well, Jesus and all that other crap is just a story too. Think about it. Use your brain and you will realize it.

It's not easy because I had to escape from that type of thinking to realize the Mormon church is not true.
But I had to apply the same critical thinking to Christianity and I saw that it just doesn't add up.

By the way, two more serious questions...

1. How many Mormons have you actually brought out of the LDS church?

2. How many of them have joined CCC?

Just know that I don't hold you in the regard that Samuel does, but I agree with him 100% that you have no right to claim to have the only truth, therefore everyone else goes to hell. I mean, this is exactly what the Mormons believe, so what makes you any different or better than them?

When I see your guy making comments that murder is okay, that really creeps me out and I am wondering if you honestly believe that? If you do, then I don't want to be your friend either for two reasons: 1. I can't advocate murder for any reason, and 2. how do I know you won't try to murder me because I am not a member of your faith?

Can you see that your founder is just as big a fraud and liar as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? What proof is there that your leader is a true prophet?
There is none, dude and you will have to level with that someday, just as you ask the Mormons to do.

Looking forward to your reply and I hope you will address all the questions I have asked.

Sincerely,

Ray"


Ray, did you send me this? The person who sent this asked me to use his new email address. Ray please email me and let me know.

This person does NOT represent the Lord's heart neither does he speak any truth concerning Christianity.

In His name,
-Eric
Galatians 4:16

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:38:00 PM, Anonymous madampince said...

Nothing about Galatian's story surprises me. In my years growing up in the LDS cult, everyone praised adoption as allowing them to raise children in a "covenant" home. With adoption less popular than it used to be, and with more bishops less willing to excommunicate girls who become pregnant, they're pulling out all the exortion stops to force the most slightly willing single moms to give up their babies.

Never forget -- if a child is born in anything but a "covenant" marriage, the LDS cult considers it a lesser being.

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a sad story. Can we all agree the LDS Church is a unethical pile of crap?

Galatian,

Kudos for the strength to keep your son. :)

Bond

 
At Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:25:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

-------I wish my mum had givne me up for adoption. I'm 13 and my whole life the only thing I've seen her do is struggle and work.-------

After all the struggle your mom has put in you still want to be put up for adoption? You're either a troll or a liar.

-------She's always tired and it breaks my heart and makes me feel so guilty because I know I'm the reasen she has to work so much. I know she loves me.------

If you know she loves you why are you saying you want to leave? Troll, liar, or ungrateful little shit; take your pick.

------I just wish she had loved me enough to give me to a family with a mum and a dad. I would give anythign to come home from school and have someone who loves me waiting for me at home. I hate coming in to an empty house. She keeps promising it isn't going to be like this forever but it isn't going to ever change. She doesn't have time to finish school so she just keeps working.-----

She just keeps working....to feed your ungrateful ass. Troll, liar, or ungrateful; take your pick.


------I love my mum but sometimes I hate her becuase she did this to my life. But I know she did it because she loves me and thought it was right.------

You're alive aren't you. You could have been aborted. You want some cheese with that whine? Troll, liar, or whiner; take your pick?

------Your son is lucky you got to go to college and get a good job. I don't know about mormans exept my friend is supposed to be one but they don't go. Its sad about your neice, but maybe this is better for her. Tell your brother people are praying for him and your neice to find happiness.-----

Yeah her son is lucky. She worked her tail off and did what she wanted to do with her life.

I'm going with a combination of troll and liar. With a side order of BS.

Bond

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 12:24:00 AM, Anonymous A True Christian said...

Eric,
I am really shocked about your post here.
Do you deny the Lord's word? You stated that I don't speak any truth concerning Christianity.
But I directly quoted from the bible, which is the word of God, do you disagree?

Moreover, I assumed that you believe in both the new testament AND the old testament, which you have confirmed in the forum.
I agree with you that capital punishment is biblical. But so is killing our disobedient children.
Jesus Christ commanded us to do so in the old testament. I have quoted the relevant passages.
Have you fallen away from God's true word?

I have put great hopes in you to be a speaker of the one living truth, and now you deny the words of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
You are not Jesus reincarnate.
You are a wolf in sheeps' clothes.
I am sad about this great apostasy.
Your True Christian.

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 2:54:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

I don't know if Anon from Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:27:26 PM is really a 13 year old or a Mor(m)on apologist, but all I know is that when I first read it, I thought instantly MORMON APOLOGIST SCUMBAG!!

To angry guy; I've had enough experience over the last few months with Mormon apologists, to know that one of their tactics(when they want to appear to be foreign, or a young kid) is to purposely misspell words, so that everyone will THINK that it's really a 13 year old kid.

Mormon apologists are among the most loathsome, offensive, valueless, devoid of any morals people I've ever met in my life. They will lie, deceive call you every name in the book(and then bear their testimony) and literally say or do anything, to prove their cult is true and to protect the image of their cult. They are mentally unstable and I believe completely psychotic, to put it nicely.

I've gotten a lot of these type of comments lately on several of my 200 + posts and I'm sure that many of them are just Mormon apologists pretending to be some kid. If you read the above post again, some simple words appear to be purposely misspelled, but the commas and periods sure seem to be in place. I don't believe that a 13 year old who can't spell basic words is going to be spot on with commas and periods.

Let's review the misspelled words:

givne, reasen, mormans, exept.

I'm just not buying it. And why would some random 13 year old kid, who isn't even "Morman", and only has one inactive "Morman" friend, give a shit about my blog or what's on it regarding "Mormanism."

Mormon apologists are the scum of the earth and pretending to be a kid, is just another one of their dirty, filthy tactics. It was probably Daniel C. Peterson or one of his FARMS goons, after they read how damaging the post was from Galatian. What these guys need, in all seriousness; is a special room with padded walls, a straitjacket and some good meds. Even that probably wouldn't help them and they'd still be mumbling..."I know Joseph Smith is a Prophet...I know the church is true...etc, etc.

Samuel

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 7:38:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know a lot of 13 year olds who profess to hate their parents, but it's usually because their parents won't let them go to the mall or whatever. Kids I know who grow up in single parent homes usually have more responsibility than other kids, so they're more understanding of what their parent is going through. Point being, yeah, that wasn't a 13 year old above.

They were right about one thing though, Galatians, and that is that your son IS lucky. I totally admire you for how much you have accomplished in such a short time. Being pregnant is tough enough on it's own, but to add working with LDSFS, dealing with your relationship with your son's father, giving birth to your son... all of the things you went through you went to college at the same time AND did well enough to get a good job... that's just amazing.

I hate that you feel that the church let you down. People can be stupid, petty and cruel. We aren't all like that. I wish you and your son all the best, and we'll remember your family in our prayers.

-M.A.

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 10:14:00 AM, Anonymous Denver said...

Hey, M.A.,
the problem is not that "people can be stupid", that is, individuals can make mistakes. The problem is that the LDS church as an institution puts pressure on mothers in difficult situation to give away their children. Thus, they can artificially create "perfect families" by giving children to temple-worthy married couples.

Galatians pointed out that this is not an individual story, but that many mothers suffer from the same problem, because it is an institutional practice of the LDS church system to tear apart non-ideal families to create ideal ones.

So, don't apologize for individuals, apologize for the evil practice of your church. That would be the appropriate step.

Denver

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 11:33:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

-------Mormon apologists are the scum of the earth and pretending to be a kid, is just another one of their dirty, filthy tactics. It was probably Daniel C. Peterson or one of his FARMS goons, after they read how damaging the post was from Galatian.--------

Now Samuel you know that if DCP or any of the other FAIR knuckleheads were to repute this story they would submit 48 well written pages with several ad hominems against Galatian. They would also include the LGT, pseudo-DNA evidence and a witness by the Holy Ghost in their defense of the Church.

They would also mention that she is an angry anti-Mormon whose moral compass is being manipulated by Satan, magnetic energy given off by Kolob and the spirit of Jerald Tanner. Then they'd bring in the fact that they "know" she made it all up because she was "offended" by someone at Sacrament.

The "13-year-old" is probably just some idiot teenager or something. Maybe they should be writing for FARMS...

Bond

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 12:02:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You need to understand man that your mother is doing her best to help take care of you. you sit and talk about how unfair it is that you come home alone and no one is there to say they love you. Sorry but I cant help but think your a sad 13 year old if you are 13
Parrents love you no matter what happens weather its religous or if its regular life.The love they hold for you is so strong and its sad to see that you to self centerd to see that. From what I see your just a selfish person and not only that if your not a real 13. Then its sad to try to come in and cuase problems. I would have to say I agree with Samuel the Utahnite 100%

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 12:09:00 PM, Anonymous Roderick said...

Hey Samuel,
when I read your blog, I thought that there might be a new ecumenical movement between the religious right and Mormonism.

The comments by "A True Believer" and Eric Hoffman regarding putting your disobedient child to death are very similar to Brigham Young's doctrine of blood atonement, aren't they?
The bloodshed of this innocent young person must atone for its disobedience.

Rather than seeing the theological differences, to me Mormonism and Evangelicalism seem to be so similar that an ecumenical movement to spread their Christian BS all over the world would be more than suitable.

Unfortunately, in huge portions of America, these conservative and unscientific beliefs are very common, and not every Moron is a Mormon, as our friend Eric proves.

But fortunately, in the end the truth prevails, and freedom of thought have brought forth freethinking intellectuals who don't obey to (barbaric) moral rules invented 3000 years ago and who disagree with mythical stories about a world created 6000 years ago (hey Eric, how did the dinosaurs which were created at the fifth day get so deep into the ground? Did they dig their own graves, or did Angels like Moroni dig them into the earth on 7th day while your weak God had to take a rest?)

Hey, True Christian, why did Jesus command us to love our neighbors, but you preach only hatered and violence? You contradict your own Lord and Savior!

Anyway, luckily there are people who found out the Truth about Mormonism as well as Christianity.
So keep up the good work, Samuel.
Let the Truth shine like a beacon in the night.
Roderick

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 3:25:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

hey ,

Just a quick experience or two I had in Gospel Principles class . This is the Mormon Church class where the teacher asks a question and two Ward missionaries ( church members ) give the answer so we get indoctrinated ! lol

we were reading about Tithing ( the church is obsessed with it ) anyway on page 210 of the Gospel Principles Book it says " for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming " D&C64:23 ... So I asked what does this mean , does this this mean that If I don't pay tithe I will be set on fire by Jesus Christ ? No one would answer , I said this is a serious threat and one relpied its cool to pay tithes , a few laughed and the class moved on ??? This is Mormonism for you , No answers to nothing or avoid .

It reminded me of Catholic Indulgencies in the middle ages or whenever which The Mormons are quick to criticize and yet they are doing the same , Pay Tithe so you won't be burned !! hahaha

Another one was when I asked who were the less valiants in the pre existence .Of course they were gobsmacked as there were 3 blacks in the class !! lol The answer was there were no less valiants !! Bullshit ......... later on without any blacks in sight one told me there were no less valiants but some of us were more valiant than others ( ie whites more valiant and those born especially into white mormon families )!

Elder Joseph

 
At Monday, March 05, 2007 11:21:00 PM, Anonymous Demon of Kolob said...

The Mormons are trying to make sure all children born to a`LDS are raised in the Cult. They will even break the law when they can get away with it.

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:05:00 AM, Anonymous ray said...

Because as they see it, the ends justify the means.

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:05:00 PM, Anonymous Demon of Kolob said...

Yes they must hold to all members they can since the internet and people like Samuel are having an effect on membership

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Huh?????? Since when are white people are more valiant than black people????? I thought Mormons believe all people born in the last days were the more valiant spirits.

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:59:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Well, to the last Anon at 12:21:52 PM, you obviously have much to learn and are probably about to start the journey that most of us already have, if discovering truth and facts is what you want. Trust me when I say that we didn't really know much about that either.

For me, it was the catalyst that started my journey and hopefully the following quote and corresponding links, will help you to start your journey to "the real Mormon Truth."

It's like telling American Indians that they are Lamanites, who are cursed with a dark skin and descended from a filthy, evil, cursed people....yeah, how inspiring!!

Here is a great view of Kimball's "Inspired Racism" and what Kimball really thought of "The Lamanites/American Indians" in this October 1960 Conference talk:

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents-on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.


Mormon Racism

More Racist Quotes!!

Best wishes and feel free to ask any questions you might have, as there are plenty of us here willing to help, if you want to know "the Mormon Truth."

Samuel

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:17:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Sorry, here's the Mormon racism link again from the last post.

Samuel

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith once said, "A prophet isn't always a prophet." Meaning not everything a prophet says is supposed to be taken as doctrine. Of course the mormon church has a racist history. Who wasn't racist back then? Where's the big secret???

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

----Joseph Smith once said, "A prophet isn't always a prophet." Meaning not everything a prophet says is supposed to be taken as doctrine.----

Ah, the old "the Prophet is speaking as a Prophet when he says he's speaking as a Prophet" argument. Hello silly argument, it's been awhile.

This argument is a complete get-out-of-any-crazy-statement free card. It removes the "Prophet" from any responsibility from his words, because it allows him to say "I wasn't speaking as the Prophet, it was the opinion of a man".

It doesn't matter if he's speaking as a prophet or as a man, he's still the leader of the LDS church, and has to be held responsible because his opinion is influential. I would bet most LDS people think the Prophet is speaking as the Prophet at all times (because he's a freaking Prophet of God), so any statement he makes is God's word.

----Who wasn't racist back then?----

No everyone wasn't racist "back then". Ever heard of abolitionists?

----Where's the big secret???----

It's a secret to the people who don't know about church history and don't know about the "Prophet's" statements and views on issues. You'd be suprised how many people who "know" LDS church history don't "know" LDS church history.

Bond

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:18:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

I agree with Bond. That's a ludicrous statement. True, most people were racist back then, but shouldn't the PROPHET OF GOD have the inspiration and instruction not to be???

THINK ABOUT IT.

If abolitionists (not "God's representatives on earth") could see the Truth (about everyone being equal) then why the hell can't the prophet of God??? It's pretty freakin simple. Racism in the church is another HUGE RED FLAG that it's false -- but most people have been indoctrined into the falsehood of it all, including the racism, and they are blinded by the cult.

I made a short video on this for YouTube (I had to cut it down to 5 mins) and I'll be posting more. It's:

www.youtube.com/galatian23

I thought it was important that we reach out to mormons on YT - since Samuel's videos were unfairly taken down without notice. I've noticed that's happened to almost all the "anti-mormon" aka "truthful" material on Youtube ... def a TBM somewhere up there pulling strings.

Anyway, the whole "prophet when he's speaking as a prophet" bit is INSANELY RIDICULOUS. No problem though, if Gordy Hinckley should be caught in a gay scandal, or with a prostitute he can say it's his "off time" from being a prophet .... only when he's 'speaking as a prophet' ....

I guess that explains underage-marriages, minor-rapes, RACSIM, blood atonement, wrong theology/doctrines, false prophecies ... on and on.

GLAD WE'VE GOT THAT CLEARED UP!!!!

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:42:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

PS - by the way, it even says in THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE that blacks are the cursed decendants of CAIN. And prophets past have taught that, as well as because of the supposed 'disobedience in the pre-existence'. I'd dig out the exact quote for you, but I can't find my POGP at the moment. Just look up "Cain" in your book and I'm sure you can find the quote. Or watch my video on YouTube ... I have like 1/100th of the quotes available by past leaders.

Besides, for MOST people - this is actually still taught today! I was taught this at church, and my TBM friends all believed it ... so it's not an isolated thing.

God this RACIST, BABY-STEALING, MONEY-GRUBBING CORPORATION/CULT just makes me sick!!!

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:22:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW:

On my previous post, please insert "not everyone was racist "back then'" for "No everyone wasn't racist "back then"". *Proofread Bond, Proofread*

Bond

 
At Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:45:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

I went and saw the Joseph Smith movie today. As you can guess, people were sniffing and sobbing as they walked out.

Naturally, the video was a complete white wash. When he was translating the plates it showed him sitting at the table with the plates in full view. No stones, no hats. In fact he was looking straight at the pages and reading right off them. Odd, but that even goes against the traditional Mormon story where he sat behind a sheet.

There were lots of black people in the movie and they were treated like everyone else.

One scene showed a camp in pre-Nauvoo (I believe) where people were sick and dying in the swamp. Joseph was going around healing every one of them like it was no big deal.

And when Joseph and Hyrum were leaving on their way to Carthage, the whole town waved them sadly off, knowing that they were going to their deaths.

Of course, no mention of the lost 116 pages. No mention of Joseph's marriage to anyone but Emma. No mention of Joseph having a gun or getting drunk the night before his death. Nothing about his bank, nothing about blacks being denied anything, etc.

There was one scene where Joseph was visiting his brothers grave, and a girl comes up to him and asks him to tell her more about the Book of Mormon. "Of course..." he replied. The scene ended but I half expected him to say, "just drop your panties and I'll tell you everything I know."

Joseph was portrayed as a fellow who was always happy, smiling and cheerful. It was definitely designed to be a tear jerker. Of course, once you exit the theatre, there are about a dozen beautiful and friendly sister missionaries there to ask you what you thought of it and what your favorite part was.

There's no question that this film is totally inaccurate as anyone who is half informed should know. It is obviously designed to give Joseph Smith a perfect image, which it does.

Overall, a huge misrepresentation of the facts, but what else should we expect from the church? If anyone still thinks the church doesn't lie and deceive people, just watch this movie. The movie is free, but they are hoping that it will eventually earn them 10% of your wages for life.

 
At Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:58:00 AM, Anonymous Demon of Kolob said...

Galatian
Is it Ok to post your elsewhere? This needs to be told.

 
At Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:53:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

Demon of Kolob, feel free to post my story anywhere you like - and that goes for everyone else too. You have my permission to re-post anywhere, at any time.
Thanks guys.

 
At Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:02:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

M.A.(Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:21:19 PM), that you? I think you left the same exact comment on one of my other posts, in response to the Mormon racist teachings and Brigham Young cheerfully, in the name of the Mormon God, sticking a javelin right through the heart of both a cheating wife and her lover?

You are forgetting that you've been promised, as a Mormon, that you cannot EVER be led astray by these "men of God", without God literally removing them. Let me post the quotes proving this, as a reminder and maybe they will jar your very selective memory:

M. Russell Ballard said:

"God bless you to keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. We WILL NOT LEAD

YOU ASTRAY. We CANNOT."

Then President Benson taught:

"The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet, The prophet will NEVER LEAD THE CHURCH ASTRAY and The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—REJECT THEM AND SUFFER.

In Declaration #1, in the Doctrine and Covenants:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to LEAD YOU ASTRAY. It is NOT IN THE PROGRAMME. It is NOT IN THE MIND OF GOD. If I were to attempt that, THE LORD WOULD REMOVE ME OUT OF MY PLACE, AND SO HE WILL ANY OTHER MAN WHO ATTEMPTS TO LEAD THE CHILDREN OF MEN ASTRAY, from the oracles of God and from their duty."

M. Russell Ballard then says again:

"You keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. WE WILL NOT LEAD YOU ASTRAY. WE CANNOT."
=======

Now, these are Apostles and Prophets teaching this, so were they leading astray, deceiving and lying then or are they doing it now?

I'm simply holding these corrupt cult leaders to their own pronounced standards of excellence and near perfection and infallibility that they assure everyone they have. They cannot error, or make a mistake, EVER, that would in any way lead the Saints astray; that is the repeated promise, right?

So why were these so called "men of God", then allowed to teach such horrible hate, lies and falsehoods, such as; that blacks are cursed by God, with a flat nose and black skin, sexism, homophobia, blood atonement, polygamy, polyandry, God sanctioned adultery, etc, etc, etc?

You really need to re-evaluate your beliefs M.A. and who and what you believe in and why, because it directly reflects on who you are as a person. Put these men to the test!! They promise they cannot ever take a misstep and can NEVER be wrong(lead astray) in their teachings....EVER!!

So now, use your own common sense, re-read their teachings, use your brain, think logically and see if you agree with EVERY single teaching and EVERYTHING they say or have ever said. If you don't, they are false Prophets and the church is false and nothing more than a corrupt cult corporation, masquerading as a church. Like Hinckley proudly declares; there's no gray area, it's all black or white.

Study up on Joseph Smith's child-brides as young as 14, that he sex with, along with 10, 20, 30 + other women, all behind Emma's back of course, in complete secrecy, while he lied about it publicly, denying to his last pathetic breath that he was even a polygamist and that all of his accusers were PERJURERS and that he could prove that. LIAR!!

Read about how Joseph Smith married other men's happily married wives and had sex with them too. Wouldn't this be adultery? In what world is this not adultery? If this was Gordon B. Hinckley or the current leader of the JWs or the SDAs or some other church that I'm describing; would you consider it to be adultery and openly condemn it or defend the man the same exact way you defend and justify Joseph Smith and his pathetic behavior?!! Explain to me why God sanctioned adultery (in secret, behind Emma's back) , really isn't adultery, in your convoluted world of mass confusion and bullshit.

However, nowadays, if you even masturbate, you're screwed, must confess it to the Bishop, can't serve a mission, can be sent home from a mission, but Joseph Smith was committing adultery with probably, at least, 33 women in secret(some of them children) because "God commanded it" and "would have his angel kill him with a flaming sword", if he didn't, while promising Eternal Life with him, to his victims. I mean the First Presidency has even condemned oral sex in 1981, but their church/cult was founded by an adulterous pedophile and wife stealing scumbag and thief.

Anyway, do your homework, know the "true Mormon history" and then get back to us, because you appear to be in the dark and very naive, just as I was 20 months ago. It's not easy finding out one day, that you were in a cult your whole life and that the entire foundation of the church today and all the way back to 1820, was based on nothing but fraud and lies.

However, great freedom of mind, thought and expression, that you've never had, await you, when you finally make your exit from the Mormon cult and it is a great feeling!! Then again, maybe you and many others like having their mind controlled by your cult and can't function independently, because it scares you too much?

By strongly and openly claiming that they can't or haven't ever lead the Saints astray M.A., as they do clearly claim, and that it was okay to murder your wife and her lover if they commit adultery, that it was okay to kill blacks on the spot, for mixing their seed with a white person; they have absolutely led you astray(by their own definition) and are a complete fraud...it's just that simple!!

Hold them to their own declared standards of excellence and promises!!

Here is the quote I referred to above, that M.A. justifies as "just" a "Prophet not speaking as a Prophet" and also...apparently...no big deal!!

Brigham Young:

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, YOU WOULD BE JUSTIFIED and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I WOULD NOT PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH HER HEART, and I WOULD DO IT WITH CLEAN HANDS." (J. of D., Vol. 3, p. 247-A discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, March 16, 1856.)

So advocating murder, is just no big deal M.A.? Do you see how far you have to lower yourself, in order to defend these pieces of scum? You really want people to think of you on that level? Do you often, in everyday life, defend murderers, liars, thieves and sexual predators/perverts, or just the Mormon variety, that are in the Mormon Hierarchy, past or present?

Do you M.A. love your wife so much that you would follow the teachings of BY and "PUT A JAVELIN THROUGH HER HEART...WITH CLEAN HANDS", if she cheated on you?" I sure hope you DON'T love her that much, for her sake!!

The Mormon gospel is simply beautiful and beautifully simple, isn't it M.A. and all of you other Mormon apologists out there in La La land? Isn't it just wonderful?!!

By the way, where did M.A. and all of the other Mormon apologists go? Mormon Hierarchy's sins got your tongues?!!

Samuel

 
At Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:45:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

It is a difficult thing when faced with all of this information you have never heard before. It makes sense and yet, the church just can't be false! You've lived with it all your life and you have a testimony.

This is a very difficult time, as Samuel said. It is a time of serious soul searching and learning how to be honest with yourself.

You know that murder is wrong. You know that Brigham Young taught murder. You know that Brigham Young was a prophet! It doesn't add up! It doesn't make sense. How could a prophet say things like that? You feel like your head is swimming and sometimes you even feel sick in your stomach.

Then one day, it's gone, the confusion inside your head. And the answer is crystal clear. And the answer is so obvious that you wonder why you never saw it before? Suddenly, common sense steps in and the whole picture comes into perfect focus.

Which is more likely, that angels showed Joseph Smith where golden plates were buried or that he just made it all up? Which is more likely, that God and Jesus visited Joseph or that he just made it all up? Which is more likely, that Joseph Smith was threatened by an angel with a flaming sword, or that he would just say anything to get a piece of ass? Since the temple endowment so closely resembles Masonic rituals, which is more likely, that Joseph Smith plagerized the ceremony or that God revealed it from heaven? Why does God care what underwear you wear? Why does God care if you are black or white?

One of the things that hit me hardest was the realization that Mormons think they are buying their way into heaven by paying tithing. Ironically, the Bible encourages tithes, but not to the extreme that Mormons put on it. In fact, the bible says that the gospel is free! Doesn't Jesus himself say something like, "come unto me and I will give you food without money and drink without price"? Now it's more clear than ever. The church threatens you with damnation if you do not pay THEM! There is no bank account with the name of Elohiem on it. There is just a bank account of "The Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric, INC." You then realize that the Mormon church is a huge business that is wearing the disguise of a non-profit organization/church.

You then further realize that you never did actually see any miracles. In fact, you never saw anything, at all, that really proves the church is true. All you saw were sobbing people at Testimony Meeting. All you saw were men in suits telling you to pray, pay, and obey.

You then realize that over 99% of the world is not Mormon and those non-members, who don't have a guiding "spirit", do just as well in their lives as you do in yours. They are happy; they are successful. And you always thought that you could only be happy and successful with the aid of the spirit. Now you can see that it's nothing but a huge lie, and the church has deceived you and lied to you ON PURPOSE.

Then, when you have received that sure knowledge about the falsity of the church, some self righteous jerk dares to call you a son of perdition and accusses you of all manner of terrible things. Then it becomes even more clear that the church is a cult and the members will say and do anything their flawless leaders tell them to. They say we masturbate because their leaders say we masturbate. They say we commit adultry because their leaders say we commit adultry. Then it becomes clear that members of the LDS church are mindless zombies who do not have the ability to think for themselves. You feel sorry for them and want to help them see the light and learn how to use their own brains. When you approach them with this awesome news, they reject it flat out and call you a liar. They prefer to keep their minds in bondage. The truth is so clear to you and yet they refuse to see it; all the while they are calling you evil, angry, and confused. All you want to do is help them, and they spit in your face.

This is the life and paradigm of an ex-Mormon. It sucks, but it's true.

 
At Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:02:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

And the part that sucks most, is that since all of your family and friends are TBM, not one of them is interested to hear your point of view. All they ask is, "what sin did you commit that caused you to lose your testimony?"

The life of an ex-Mormon in Utah is lonely. No one cares about your point of view. The only thing they want to hear out of you is you confessing everything to your bishop. The cult members view you as a threat treat you as such. It's not like you left the church and suddenly became a rapist, sex predator, but that's how you get treated.

It is then that you realize how damaging Mormon dogma is to people's minds. They have a superiority complex and god has authorized them to remove anything that opposes "the work". You then realize, without a doubt, that you just got out of a cult that will stop at nothing to squeeze every dollar out of you and keep your mind locked up in mental shackles.

And the more people scream "Masturbater!" at you, the more clear it is that you were in a cult. It then frightens you to death when you realize that you treated ex-Mormons exactly the same way back in your TBM days. TBM's just do what they are told. In fact, everything they say is entirely predictable, because you were indoctrinated with the same exact crap yourself.

Damn it sucks. You wish people would just open their eyes and be more tolerant. This is the life of an ex-Mormon.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:07:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reading your pathetic "tear jerker" posts are disturbing. Several of you are just of hate mongers so full of anger (towards your own misguided choices)and rage (for not wanting to admit responsibility for the consequences of your actions) to the point that you will do anything to justify or rationalize your situation to help you feel good about, or to believe that the sins that you have or are comitting are not leading you to destruction. I think its great that the child was placed with a family that would give him a better chance at life. You cant argue that allowing the child to stay with the biological father who has a history of unstability (and apparently still does have emotional unstability's in the form of suicidal thoughts) would not be in the best intrest of the child. What i think is sad is the fact that society is in a trend of swaying away from doing what is best for the situation to doing what is "right" but not necessairly in the best intrest of the individuals. God would do what is best for us, and I just wish more people would look at what is best for the individuals involved as opposed to what they want for their own selfish desires. Amen.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:45:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Samuel, you asked where all the "mormon apologists" went? I think we're starting to realize it's pointless to try to answer you because you don't ever actually read what we write anyway. In response to your quote about Brigham Young and finding your wife in bed, I actually said I have no idea. I don't know when he said it, who he said it to, in what context, what the circumstances were... I don't know any of that, so I have no idea about it. Years ago, my stake president also happened to be the father of a close friend. I hung out at their house a lot. I overheard him on the phone with a coworker saying something like, "if those guys try to come in and steal our ideas again, I swear I'll get my gun and shoot up their office!" Did I take that as a sign that now the church teaches if we're wronged we can go shoot people? Honestly? I found it hilarious... but no, oddly enough, I didn't go out and start shooting people.

Here's the thing. I investigated other religions. I've investigated the mormon religion. I've read the anti-mormon material. I know what people say about Joseph Smith (I'm really kind of suprised that you weren't aware of his multiple wives) and Brigham Young (although the one about the javelin is a new one). I like what the mormon church teaches. I like the idea of a loving Father in Heaven. I like the idea of the atonement. I like the idea of of life after death. I like believing there's a purpose to this life. I like the teachings of the Book of Mormon. If it turns out that it's all made up from somebody's imagination, so what (as I am brainwashed, it only seems fitting that I should quote the Prophet)? I live with good morals and values. I live with hope for a life after this one. I pay tithing. I follow the Word of Wisdom. I see miracles every day. I feel the love of my Father in Heaven. Why is that such a bad thing?

Ray, I only lived in Utah a short time, and I told you what I think of Utah mormons. I had people wondering what awful sins I must have commited because I was 27 and still single - and, because I didn't have a clue what so and so said in his talk at the last general conference (I didn't even know who so and so was!), I must have been on the road to apostasy. So even though I don't have a clue what it must be like for you as an ex-mormon, Ray, I do know how intolerant and judgemental Utah mormons can be (and yeah, here's me judging and lumping all Utah mormons into one stereotype!), and that's most of why I come to this site, because not all mormons are like that. Nobody deserves to be outcast because of how they choose to believe.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Have at it Samuel. I'm always amused by the wonderful spin you put on things!

-M.A.

ps - to the anon at 10:07...
Not everyone leaves the church because of any sin THEY committed. Intolerant morons like yourself made my older brother feel like crap every sunday simply because he had bad acne and he didn't dress in trendy clothes, and by the time he was 13, he was completely inactive.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:05:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

-----Reading your pathetic "tear jerker" posts are disturbing. Several of you are just of hate mongers so full of anger (towards your own misguided choices)and rage (for not wanting to admit responsibility for the consequences of your actions) to the point that you will do anything to justify or rationalize your situation to help you feel good about, or to believe that the sins that you have or are comitting are not leading you to destruction.-----

Hey look it's the famous "you left the church so you can sin" argument. Hello silly argument, it's been awhile.

Hey knucklehead, instead of the hit and run posts, why don't you show up at a Mormon message board and have a real discussion/debate. Samuel even has links to a few on his page. I'll make it even easier on you, so you don't have to look.

www.mormondiscussions.com

Bond

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:57:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

hey ,

I was just thinking about Donny Osmond . I've looked on his website and he seems to be very devout in his faith . BUT what about that part with advertising the lottery here in the UK . Surely this is Hypocritical? What about his ethics and Morals . He should know that the lottery destroys many lives ( people who are obsessed with buying so many tickets each week that they don't eat or cloth themsleves or their families properly ).

Then isn't it irresponsible of him to be seen participating in the draw in effect giving it credibility and basically his stamp of approval, and accepting payment for his service at the same time ?

Would he advertise Alcohol too if it promoted his album and he got paid.

I couldn't find this addressed on his FAQ ! No Doubt he is probably not answering this topic .

So I will give it a try and maybe if enough of us email him and ask him about his promoting the lottery and whether it conflicts with his belief and see what he says or see if he'll ignore us , in effect censoring !!

Surely as a latter day saint he should be teaching the world not buy lottery tickets and instead use the money more wisely as in Provident Living .

He's a hippocrite like all the rest of them.If he's comfortable promoting the lottery in Public like that , whats he capable of in private ?

Elder Joseph

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:08:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

CHECK THIS OUT FROM DONNY OSMONDS FAQ ! SOMEONE ASKED ABOUT THE SEER STONES IN A TOP HAT !! LOL DONNY'S ANSWER ? TYPICAL MORMON APOLOGIST STYLE !! THE QUESTIONER MEANS MARTIN HARRIS AND NOT RICHARD HARRIS UNLESS HE/SHE KNOWS SOMETHING WE DON'T ! LOL


Did Adam & Eve really originate from Missouri?
Did Joseph Smith interpret the gold plates to Richard Harris through seer stones in a top hat?

Response There is a place in Missouri a little north of Independence, which was originally named Spring Hill. It was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that this is a site where Adam and Eve were after being banished from the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago. It is now named Adam-on-di-Ahman meaning Adam walked with God.

As far as I know, this information is just a matter of spiritual interest, but has not much to do with our learning and living the gospel of Christ to prepare ourselves to dwell with our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and Adam and Eve.

There are at least 5 references in the Old Testament of the Urim and Thummim which was attached to some kind of breast plate through which seers (prophets) could look and receive information from the Lord. These clear stones and the plates were delivered to the Prophet Lehi in Jerusalem and brought on the journey to the "promised land" (Ancient America) about 590 BC. They were eventually placed in a hand made vault by the last living prophet of that ancient people. His name was Moroni, the same who appeared several times 1400 years later as a resurrected being and now heavenly messenger to Joseph Smith and once to three other witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer. He was the same who delivered the plates to Joseph Smith along with the Urim and Thummim and the breast plate. The witnesses were shown these by the heavenly messenger, Moroni and Joseph was instructed to prayerfully use these to translate the transcriptions on the plates by the gift and power of God. Only after sincere prayer was Joseph spiritually enabled to complete the translation even with the aid of the Urim and Thummim. Oliver Cowdery was the scribe to write the translation during most of Joseph's verbal translation. This translation was published as The Book of Mormon in 1829 and anyone today can obtain a copy, read it and pray to the Lord of its truthfulness so they can determine for themselves its truth.

There are those, who want to limit the way God does things, by poking fun at things like these sacred stones, and I am sure the translation could have been done in other ways if the Lord willed it, but this is the means he provided and which was used as in ancient time.

Thanks for the question. I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Donny Osmond

HOW CAN DONNT BE SINCERE WHEN HE'S MISLEADING ABOUT THE TRANSLATION . MAYBE HE NEEDS TO LISTEN TO RICHARD BUSHMAN OR GRANT PALMER HIMSELF !

SINCERELY

ELDER JOSEPH

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:25:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

um, okay, but it's donny osmond. does anyone in the world really care what donny osmond does????????

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:36:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Ray, thanks man for once again describing perfectly what it's like to be an ex-Mormon. It's amazing how these TBMS and apologists always say that "we've chosen the easy path." EASY PATH?!! Where? Are you kidding me?

Oh, you mean the path of losing family, loved ones and the respect of the entire community where we live, if we reveal ourselves as anti-Mormons? You mean worrying about the personal safety of ourselves, families and loved ones, if people discover who we are? That easy path?

The easiest path there is, would be to just fade away, go inactive and do nothing at all, with no desire to ever help anyone know the "real truth" that we've discovered.

In the sense of continuing to fit within the Mormon Village, that would be the easy, least difficult path to take, not the one that most of us are on here in the ex-Mormon community, especially those who comment a lot, blog, talk to others about their doubts, and commit a lot of personal time, etc.

I've literally dedicated my life to this cause over the last 20 + months and it hasn't been easy in any way shape or form. Those of us that choose to be active, are called every name in the book, like Ray mentioned in his last 2 comments. We are called liars, adulterers, masturbators, weak, pathetic and on and on and in my case, many of the adjectives are presented after some form of the F word.

But Ray, you nailed it man and I'm just glad that you and everyone else has a place to come, where you can vent and openly express how you truly feel and where lots of people can read your opinions.

Thanks Ray!!

Samuel

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:55:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Anon(Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:25:20 PM)

You mean the Donny Osmond who is personally flown in(probably on Huntsman's/Hinckley's private jet), every 5 years to serenade the rotten son of a bitch at his live, televised Birthday bashes?

Yeah, that Donny is who we are talking about and he's been one of the most famous, celebrated Mormons, from a one of the most famous, celebrated and well-known Mormon families in Mormon history, since the 1970s.

So, whoever you are anon, it is a big deal and why I wrote the post and why many have responded, including Ray, Elder Joseph and others.

So, maybe the world doesn't give a shit what Donny does, at least in the USA, but the Mormon Hierarchy kiss his ass up one side and down the other. Next time, use a little logic or do a little research before leaving a half-assed, uneducated comment!! In reality, most of the world, that isn't affected by Mormonism, doesn't give a shit about anything to do with Mormonism.

Thanks Elder Joseph for your research and comments regarding Donny. This man is best buddies with Hinckley and is getting used to serenading his ass, with tears in his eyes.....what a JOKE and Donny is a complete hypocrite!!

Samuel

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:55:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Samuel,
Okay, I went back and re-read the other comment about Brigham Young and the javelin and all that (so I could properly respond), and I'm curious about one thing. Have YOU yourself done the research on that particular quote, or is it just something you copied off someone else's anti-mormon site? I'm going to assume the latter, because you seem like an intelligent person. How about this. You research it. Tell us where Brigham Young said it, when he said it, what made him use such an extreme example, and how it was really meant to be taken. While you're at it, try looking up the Biblical reference he used and based that quote on. It's funny how people who just hate the church will take a few words from a church leader and turn it into this huge big awful thing, when really it's nothing horrific at all. Not accusing you personally, Samuel, just a trend I've noticed on anti sites. Have fun researching... or calling me brainwashed. Whatever makes you happy.

-M.A.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:59:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey -isn't it kind of hypocritical of you gripe about Hinckley being friends with Donny Osmond, the gambler, or whatever, when you gripe all over your site about how mormons have dropped your friendship because your a antimormon now?

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:06:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Samuel, you asked where all the "mormon apologists" went? I think we're starting to realize it's pointless to try to answer you because you don't ever actually read what we write anyway.

Oh you mean I won't ACCEPT your bullshit excuses? Of course I read what you write, but it's the same old bullshit, over and over and over, as you excuse your beloved Prophet Joseph Smith, that you literally PRAISE in song. Am I supposed to just lay down and agree with everything you say? Do you agree with everything I say? Obviously not and guess what M.A.? We are never going to agree on 90% of what we talk about. Do you expect that to ever change? You're free to say whatever the hell you want in defense of your pathetic cult leaders and I'm free to call bullshit, just as you are on me and often do.

Always remember M.A. it is you who has tracked us down and engaged us, in a clearly anti-Mormon venue, where the majority will strongly disagree with most of what you say and find you reasoning and logic sorely lacking in every way, shape and form. And you thought it would be different? Yeah, like I could go to FAIR and find people sympathetic to my anti-Mormon cause? Like Daniel C. Peterson would be nice to me? The guys an asshole and is much worse than I am. Give me a break!!

In response to your quote about Brigham Young and finding your wife in bed, I actually said I have no idea. I don't know when he said it, who he said it to, in what context, what the circumstances were... I don't know any of that, so I have no idea about it.

Now you appear to be the one that isn't reading what I write. To repeat what I already posted in my last comment; The quote is located in The J. of D., Vol. 3, p. 247 and it was A discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, March 16, 1856.

Oh and who was he addressing?(I'll tell you, since you're too damn lazy and apathetic, to care enough to do the research) He was addressing the BISHOPS of the church, IN THE SLC TABERNACLE. I don't think you can get much more official than that M.A. Now explain how I'm twisting this one upside down and into a pretzel!! Am I a LIAR?

HERE IS THE LINK

Years ago, my stake president also happened to be the father of a close friend. I hung out at their house a lot. I overheard him on the phone with a coworker saying something like, "if those guys try to come in and steal our ideas again, I swear I'll get my gun and shoot up their office!" Did I take that as a sign that now the church teaches if we're wronged we can go shoot people? Honestly? I found it hilarious... but no, oddly enough, I didn't go out and start shooting people.

First of all, he sounds like a great guy and very worthy of being a Stake President. Secondly, nice try M.A. to compare the words of some lowly Stake President to a "Prophet of God." Talk about a weak argument. The words of Mr. SP, don't even compare to the words of Brigham Young.

Oh yeah, and did the SP actually teach his ideas to an entire congregation of Bishops, from the pulpit, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City? Yeah, obviously not!! Do you have a better comparison that at least comes close as a comparison. That example is actually quite embarrassing and you need to do better than that M.A..

Here's the thing. I investigated other religions. I've investigated the mormon religion. I've read the anti-mormon material. I know what people say about Joseph Smith (I'm really kind of suprised that you weren't aware of his multiple wives) and Brigham Young (although the one about the javelin is a new one).

M.A., please enlighten us all and tell us where you learned about Joseph's polygamous wives? Was it Sacrament meeting, Priesthood meeting, Sunday School, Seminary, Institute, on a mission, in the MTC, in the temple, on a tour of temple square, in the new Joseph Smith movie, or on the official Joseph Smith website? Also, you shouldn't be surprised that I didn't know, because 90% or higher of all ex-Mormons didn't know. Why didn't we know? BECAUSE IT ISN'T TAUGHT M.A.!!

Also, it's clear when you say, "what people say...about Joe and Briggy", completely ignoring that it isn't "what we say" rather WHAT THEY SAID!! DO YOU REALLY NOT GET IT? Am I and everybody else just making this shit up out of thin air? Why don't you try dealing with the ACTUAL WORDS OF JOSEPH SMITH AND BRIGHAM YOUNG, SINCE YOU LOVE TO QUOTE THEM SO MUCH. QUOTE THEIR BULLSHIT FOR A CHANGE!!

I openly challenge you, to show all of us, where this subject is taught, in an official church manual or in the standard works, any of the required missionary books, the Ensign, New Era, Friend or any other OFFICIAL book that is used in church, in an official capacity!!

We'll be waiting M.A.!! Why the hell would we know something that isn't ever taught or ever discussed, and how and why would we even know to look for it?

I like what the mormon church teaches. I like the idea of a loving Father in Heaven. I like the idea of the atonement. I like the idea of of life after death. I like believing there's a purpose to this life. I like the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

A loving Father in Heaven? That will burn your ass to a crisp, if you don't pay your tithing to LDS Inc? Yeah, very nice!! So you don't believe that there can be "life after death" or even a "purpose to this life", if you aren't Mormon?

Now, that's a very sad commentary and proof that you are brainwashed and don't even realize it. Yeah, if I believed as you did, I guess I would have killed myself after finding out it was a fraud. I guess we can all see now why you HAVE to stay. If you left Mormonism, the "one and only true church", then you would have ZERO purpose in life and wouldn't be able to believe in "life after death" anymore? Oh, did I just twist your words again....please show me how, or explain them more clearly, okay?!!

Hey M.A. I know you have at least one kid...so are you ready for that kid to be asked at 11-12 years old(in private, behind a closed door), if he/she masturbates or looks at porno? Are you ready to allow the personal sexual life of your child, to be turned over to an unqualified, possibly perverted, voyeuristic Bishop?

If it turns out that it's all made up from somebody's imagination, so what (as I am brainwashed, it only seems fitting that I should quote the Prophet)? I live with good morals and values. I live with hope for a life after this one. I pay tithing. I follow the Word of Wisdom. I see miracles every day. I feel the love of my Father in Heaven. Why is that such a bad thing?

So, if you left the church, would you no longer "live with good morals and values?" You mention again "hope for a life after this one", which you confirm wouldn't exist if you weren't Mormon, right? Guess what, I still have hope for a life after this one and to be reunited with my loved ones and I'm not even Mormon. How can that possibly be?

Okay, so you pay your tithing...so what? Yeah, you waste 10% of your money, in order to buy your way into heaven and to get a "stay out of jail" card. If you paid the church say $5,000/year for the next 30 years, you realize that's $150,000, right? And what do you get for it? Where does the money go? Got proof of that? Does the church get back to you and tell you what they've done with your $150,000....of course they don't and never will, even though Hinckley claims they do.

So, if you weren't Mormon, you'd be drinking, smoking, eating even more meat than you do, drinking coffee and tea, maybe doing drugs, with no hope of anything? Wow, maybe you should stay Mormon, because it appears your life would tank right into the toilet if you ever left the church and didn't have old men in suits telling you exactly what to do.

You said, "I see miracles every day." Please share with all of us these miracles(unless they are too sacred in nature), that you see everyday, that wouldn't happen, if it wasn't for the fact that you're a Mormon. Then explain how God is no respecter of persons, unless you're a Mormon of course, God's chosen and special people.

You said, "I feel the love of my Father in Heaven. Why is that such a bad thing?"

So, the only way you can convince yourself of "the love of your Father in Heaven", is through Mormonism. So nobody else on the planet can feel what you feel? I guess it's true, since only faithful Mormons are worthy of "The Gift Of The Holy Ghost" and all of the other slugs in the world, the 99.95% of the world, are only eligible to feel the Mormon holy ghost for brief periods of time and can't have that "constant companionship" until they are baptized Mormon and obeying all the Mormon rules.

Yeah, you're right, "why is that such a bad thing?" LOL!!

I think you summed it up perfectly though, when you said, "If it turns out that it's all made up from somebody's imagination, so what." So there you have it folks...so what?!!

Now, that's a man with true drive. Hopefully you don't take your "so what Hinckley attitude" into all other aspects of your life, because that would just be pathetic. See what the cult has taught you?

Ray, I only lived in Utah a short time, and I told you what I think of Utah mormons. I had people wondering what awful sins I must have commited because I was 27 and still single - and, because I didn't have a clue what so and so said in his talk at the last general conference (I didn't even know who so and so was!), I must have been on the road to apostasy.

Yeah, isn't it amazing that Zion-Utah, is filled with the most pathetic, hypocritical, judgmental, asshole Mormons on the planet? Damn, you would think being so close to the Mormon Vatican of Salt Lake City, they'd be the best and strongest, most loving and understanding. Utah, is a true representation of what Mormonism is really all about.

Having lived the majority of my life in Utah, with Utah Mormons, I definitely know what I'm talking about. Mormons outside of Utah are 10,000 times more friendly and accepting than many of the pricks here.

At least we can agree on this subject M.A. and the way they treated your brother is typical, normal and disgusting. It happens all the time.....especially if you happen to come home early from your mission or some awful thing like that...Mormon God forbid!! Too bad you didn't stay on that road to apostasy, but then again, your life would be worthless and pointless if you had, right?

So even though I don't have a clue what it must be like for you as an ex-mormon, Ray, I do know how intolerant and judgemental Utah mormons can be (and yeah, here's me judging and lumping all Utah mormons into one stereotype!), and that's most of why I come to this site, because not all mormons are like that. Nobody deserves to be outcast because of how they choose to believe.

M.A. I think people who choose to believe, defend, justify and excuse horrific and awful things and the horrific past teachings of Mormonism, do absolutely deserve to be outcasts. I keep hoping that you aren't one of these people...which is to say a pathetic Mormon apologist, who will do or say literally anything to defend your cult and cult leaders.

All I can say is that anyone who can defend, justify and excuse racism, polygamy, polyandry, adultery, sex with 14 year olds(by grown married men), sexism, homophobia, blood atonement, etc, is a very PATHETIC, DISGUSTING human being. If that's you M.A. then I just defined who I think you are. There are no excuses or justifications for the things I just listed.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Have at it Samuel. I'm always amused by the wonderful spin you put on things!

-M.A.


I'm glad that I amuse you so much with my "wonderful spin." Actually, you don't recognize it, but I speak the truth and it is "spin", that is your middle name. I'm both amused and disgusted by your complete lack of human decency and the need you have to defend all of the filthy sins of your past and present cult leaders. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if you defend and justify racism, you ARE A RACIST!! Not too hard to follow the logic there, is it M.A.?

ps - to the anon at 10:07...
Not everyone leaves the church because of any sin THEY committed. Intolerant morons like yourself made my older brother feel like crap every sunday simply because he had bad acne and he didn't dress in trendy clothes, and by the time he was 13, he was completely inactive.


Well, we agree again on something, which is bound to happen once in a great while, even when we are diametrically opposed on most everything we believe.

Samuel

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:22:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

The belief that ALL people who leave the church and become "sinners" is just another whopper spun by your flawless church leaders.

For anyone who wants to continue to spread this evil gossip, you need to open your eyes.

I no longer believe in the church. But, by Mormon standards, I am still temple worthy, other than paying tithes and having a testimony of the church. Now I am not sitting here saying this so you can all applaud me and tell me how great I am. I am saying this so that you can see that, once again, your leaders have lied to you.

Your leaders create LIES to scare you and keep you away from us. Why? Because they do not want you to hear what we have to say!

Chicken shits!!! If the church is so true, what are they so scared of? Shouldn't truth defend itself? They don't want people to know that Brigham Young taught murder was ok. And racism.

Brigham Young died owing the church $1,000,000. He had a bad habit of tapping into the churches tithing fund whenever he wanted. Bet you didn't know that did you? Samuel, maybe you could do a blog on that some time.

Anyway, if you TBM's and apologists ever want us to take you seriously, you need to cut the shit and stop the pathetic stereotyping. You are all just proving yourselves to be as intolerant to ex-Mormons as Brigham Young was to blacks. Show me anywhere where Jesus says you should defend your faith with insults and judgements. In fact, doesn't he say you should love your enemies, do good to them who desiptefully use you, etc...? We haven't even despitefully used you, so how much more are you supposed to react with kindness towards us, not hostility.

Every person who comes in here accusing of sin is not only a gullible sucker, but also a hypocrite. If you want to defend the Lords true church, do it as he would do it.

P.S. You're welcome, Samuel. It's a pleasure to post here. Thank you so much for everything you do!

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:06:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

To whomever (Anonymous) said that he/she is more or less GLAD that my niece got taken away and that she's better off ... you are a pathetic, sick fucked-up individual!!!

As a TBM - I guess in addition to defending RACISM, Blood atonement, PEDOPHILIA, ADULTERY and on AND ON ... now STEALING and literally KIDNAPPING CHILDREN IS OKAY WITH YOU TOO?? Wow, that's fucked up, even by Mormon standards.

But hey it's the "true church" so I guess anything is justifiable right? Even kidnapping??? YOU BET!

My brother was "suicidal" so therefore he's emotional unstable and unfit to parent?? I'd be suicidal too - if anything happened to my son, or he was kidapped from me or I lost him somehow. That's the NORMAL reaction of a loving parent!!! Of course he's gonna be devastated!

But I guess it's better for my niece to be in a TBM home .... with parents who will teach her that blacks are inferior and cursed (but it's NOT racism) that pedophilia is okay (only when the prophets do it!) that adultery is acceptable (only when the prophets do it) and that she's 1/4 derived from a "filthy, loathsome, abdominable" people - that used to be Jews!!! LOL.

My niece is going to grow up in a cult, believing lies her whole life (and be devastated when she finds out the truth because I WILL TELL HER), with psycho TBM's parents (they are willing to kidnap a child so I can only imagine ...)

MAN THIS LITERALLY MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH AND SHAKE WITH RAGE!!!

Mormons are sick fucked up people, or TBM's I should say. Samuel is 100% right ... these TBM apologists are the scummiest lowly disgusting germs of the earth!

They defend: racism, pedophilia, adultery, murders, blood atonement, sacriligeous theories, and on and on ... it makes me sick!

Go look at some PHOTOS OF WHIPPED AND SHACKLED slaves ... and then read the quotes of Brigham Young, as I did, and I literally CRIED when I realized the horrific nature of the racist teachings.

Maybe your 14 year old daughter or sister or friend will have sex with a 35 year old man ... then come back and tell us how it's so NORMAL and NOT pedophilia.

Maybe your gf/bf/spouse will cheat on you .. but it's okay because GOD'S ANGEL COMMANDED IT!!! RIGHT???

Take YOURSELF or your LOVED ONE and put yourself in that situation ... then go back and read the quotes of your CHURCH LEADERS ... and tell me that it doesn't make you sick to your stomach!! But it probably wouldn't ... because you're a TBM and you'll suck back every droplet of BS with a smile on your face - proclaiming it all to be true!

I really hope that you aren't a parent, or that you never have kids ... cause you are one sick, fucked up individual. And if you do, and someone does kidnap your child/niece/family member ... then you might have a bit more sympathy for my brother. If anything happens to your child just remember "it's God's will" and he/she's in a "better place now!"

YOU SICK FUCKER!!!!

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Samuel, I knew you wouldn't let me down. Always good with the twisting of the words. Tell me now, where exactly did we get confused? Cause I don't remember ever saying, "...nobody else on the planet can feel what [I] feel..."? Or "...if [I] weren't Mormon, [I'd] be drinking, smoking, eating even more meat than [I] do, drinking coffee and tea, maybe doing drugs, with no hope of anything..." Or that, "...[my] life would tank right into the toilet if [I] ever left the church and didn't have old men in suits telling [me] exactly what to do..." Nowhere in my comment did I ever say or imply that only mormons are good people. But again, it was an amusing read.

As far as Joseph Smith and polygamy... can't say where I learned it, cause I have no idea. If I didn't have to prove it, I'd just say I probably learned it at church, but since you need proof, I won't say that yet. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Brigham Young and the javelin... I actually DID look it up (I mentioned that in my last comment). I wanted to know if YOU had because again, you seem intelligent, and if you'd actually read all of what he said, and the scriptures it was based on, you wouldn't bother trying to say whatever it is you're saying here. Read Numbers 25:6-13. Brigham Young took an Old Testament story and applied it to his time. And the meaning of what he said is comparable to when the Savior said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I grew up in the church and have had all the various required interviews, and I can honestly say that I've never been asked by any church leader any questions about masturbation or pornography, so no I won't have a problem letting my son or daughter be interviewed by their Bishop or other leaders when the time comes.

You kind of missed my point when I said if it's all made up, so what? My point is this... I'm happy being a mormon. I enjoy life as a mormon. If it turns out that someone just made it all up, so what? Whether the church is true or not, my life has been blessed and enriched by the things I believe. And YES, many of the same things I believe are taught in other religions too. Most of my best friends are nonmembers, and they all go to different churches. They are wonderful caring people who would do anything for anybody and I see how blessed they are in their lives because of the good things that they do, and oh, did I mention that these good and wonderful people are nonmembers??? I have never said or been told (except by you, Samuel) that only mormons are good people. I know plenty of good people who don't even believe in God.

Anyway, I do appreciate the time you guys take to answer my comments. If nothing else, it's opened my eyes to the way I think of and treat other people in and out of the church. Samuel, obviously, this is your site and you do what you will, but if you wouldn't mind toning down the language in your comments to me, I sure would appreciate it.

Ray, sounds like you've had a rotten day. Hope it gets better. You have always been nice to me, and if I have ever said anything to offend you, I sincerely apologize.

Elder Joseph, where in the UK? I served my mission in England and loved it there. I'm hoping someday to go back for a visit... don't worry, I'm not trying to look you up so I can get my crazed mormon buddies together and take you down for all your anti activities - LOL!!! Just noticed you mentioned being "here in the UK" and got curious. Loved it there!

-M.A.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:55:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Hi M.A.

Actually I've had a pretty good day... my last comment was not necessarially for you but for anyone and everyone who thinks they are doing such a good job defending the church by accusing everyone here of being awful, filthy sinners.

No, you have never offended me and I have personally enjoyed having you here. I believe you are happy being Mormon and I think that's wonderful! I think Mormons (and everyone) should defend their faith. But I do not believe that vulgarity and name calling is necessary at all, ESPECIALLY coming from TBM's who profess to live a higher standard.

That's all I'm trying to say.

 
At Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Intersting that the church has always claimed that 'the best interest of the child' should be considered first, just like the UN and every court around the world would do.
All these would prefer that a baby is adopted into a stable 2 parent family, but only if the relationship between the parents can't workout.
But as usual Samuel and his angels will twist and turn arguments to blast the mormons.
But this story could fit just as well into The Miracle of Forgiveness as a good example on why sex outside marriage is wrong and often brings about hardship and pain.
Honestly not much of a scoop for samuel the utahnite!

 
At Friday, March 09, 2007 3:21:00 AM, Anonymous Galatian said...

Yes, the United Nations and other organizations state that it is preferable that a child be raised in a two-parent, father and mother home. Of course that's the ideal and preferable - who wouldn't want that?

But last I heard, the U.N. and other organizations were NOT advocating the kidnapping of children ... that's the MORMON CULT's specialty! The one you defend and justify ... kidnapping to add to the list! Wow ... and to think here we have TBM's talking about "mental health"! what a joke!

Glad that MORMON INC. didn't exist 2000 years ago ... they probably would have guilt-tripped and coerced Mary and then taken her baby away and gave it to a wealthier couple with greater status .. hmm, King Herod perhaps? I imagine he would have had the resources to look after baby Jesus ...

 
At Friday, March 09, 2007 7:45:00 AM, Anonymous ray said...

Since when does the church have the right to take away the voice of the father? If the father is not allowed to be involved in the decision of wether to adopt or not, then who's best interest is really being considered??? THE CHURCH!

Anon, you are a heartless individual. Do you not appreciate the fact that Galatian's neice was adopted away IN SPITE of the fact that her brother did everything in his power to see and keep the baby?

How can you possibly justify this and keep defending it like it's actually ok? Show me any other adopting agency with policies like this. Since when is the biological father not allowed to be a part of the process, unless he is dead or some other extreme case? Guess what? Even non-Mormons have rights! Did you ever realize that? Non-Mormons are people too and they have kids and families that they love, just like you do.

So what gives LDS, Inc. the right to split families and take away the right and voice of the father?

I agree with you... in many cases, adoption is the better choice. But when the church jumps in with all it's authority and does not allow the parents to make the choice for themselves, that is just wrong.

Even if mother and father do not get along, they made a baby together and they and only they have the right and responsibility to decide the fate of the baby. NO ONE ELSE. NOT EVEN YOUR PRECIOUS CHURCH! They are only supposed to be there as a support in helping the parents carry out their wishes.

 
At Friday, March 09, 2007 11:01:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

-----Intersting that the church has always claimed that 'the best interest of the child' should be considered first, just like the UN and every court around the world would do.-----

What the church claims and what it actually does are two different things. At the end of the day the only thing the church is interested in is that the tithing keeps rolling in and that the Mormon elites stay in power.

----All these would prefer that a baby is adopted into a stable 2 parent family, but only if the relationship between the parents can't workout.
But as usual Samuel and his angels will twist and turn arguments to blast the mormons.----

Samuel's Angels? I think I see another TV show on the horizon.


----But this story could fit just as well into The Miracle of Forgiveness as a good example on why sex outside marriage is wrong and often brings about hardship and pain.-----

Miracle of Forgiveness? WTF? This story is another example of the LDS church using its bureaucracy, money, and influence to screw the little guy/gal.

Bond

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:05:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Galatian: crap! Church doesn't 'kidnap' anyone; if you know of any such kidnappings you should just report it to the FBI. Social services, which that girl requested, just advises single mothers to put the kid up for adoption as the best option for the baby not the mother -even though the mother will probably never forget the baby or get over him, and because of this fact it is always better not to have sex before marriage, and because of these difficult cases and the pain they bring, Kimball would've probably used this story in his book had he known about it (i'd say).
And 'Ray' you obviously have no idea how courts work in most places. They will all really ignore the dad and let the mom decide on adoption -ignoring the dad unless she is asking for child support payments off course. Get your facts right!!

The comment on 'Samuel and his angels' was brilliant on my part, of course, since you can see here that just like Lucifer, Samuels angels are out to defend his philosophy and keep up his war attacking the church that his family belongs to and the church of his youth -just like Lucifer does.

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:12:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another fanatical TBM who knows it all.

For them we are all just sons of perdition and they can only hate us. What Christians!!! really.

And off course he doesn't add his name to the comment.

Bond

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:13:00 AM, Anonymous Galatian said...

^^ I can't even respond to this. WITNESS EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE: this is the demented mindset that Mormonism breeds!

Even though my niece was taken away from my brother, without his consent, hidden, kidnapped and transported to Alberta (hidden there) and he fought in court for her (where she remained hidden/they refused to give her up) ...and then the cops would not get my niece because it was still to be determined in court ... and then the court decided to award custody to the adoptive parents (which was an unjust ruling, but part of the "sympathetic to mormon" areas they bragged about, probably a TBM judge) ... because they tried to paint my brother as a murderer or alcoholic and other FALSE accusations ... and yet this TBM would not call it kidnapping! SICK PEOPLE THE CHURCH CREATES!

Now, instead of realizing that the church is a fraud (racism, blood atonement, pedophilia, killing squads, kinderhook plates, fake translation of the papyrus, masonic vows ... it goes on and on) this TBM instead chooses to ignore and sidestep all the real issues and compare us to Lucifer and demons and the devil.

Typical mormon apologist. Typical TBM. Typical mormon. Typical cult mentality. This is why the church is dangerous! As they justify/believe in/any other terrifying combination or variation: murder (justified) pedophilia in the past (justified) the horrendous treatment of women (polygamy-justified), racism against blacks and others (justified) it goes on and on ... and now KIDNAPPING totally justified, whitewashed, and the blame placed on US, instead of the church!

To all those reading this: WAKE UP! YOU ARE IN A CULT! JUST TAKE A LOOK AROUND YOU AND USE YOUR BRAIN!!!!

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:13:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just block the SOB and lets get back to reality

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:19:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, they are all pedophiles and murderers, starting with Hinkley. I saw a video about him on youtube where people said that he use to show up to sex parties in salt lake city when he was younger, like 60something, and lots of people saw him. But TBM's just cover it all up. Now he is just too old to do anything. What idiots!!!!!!!
MM

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:24:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...then the cops would not get my niece because it was still to be determined in court

"...and then the court decided to award custody to the adoptive parents (which was an unjust ruling

Why doesn't he appeal???????

The court made a decision and not the church, but you manage to change it all to blame the church? or Hinkley??

And really calling Hinkley a peodophile and murderer is beyond belief. There is an FBI and SLCPD working in Utah. But wait, you propably think that the church 'runs' the cops in Utah, right??

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:48:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

---------Another fanatical TBM who knows it all.

For them we are all just sons of perdition and they can only hate us. What Christians!!! really.

And off course he doesn't add his name to the comment.

Bond---------

Uh, this isn't me. Whomever it is, please get your own handle.

The real Bond...James Bond

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:51:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

----The comment on 'Samuel and his angels' was brilliant on my part, of course, since you can see here that just like Lucifer, Samuels angels are out to defend his philosophy and keep up his war attacking the church that his family belongs to and the church of his youth -just like Lucifer does.-----

Yeah "brilliant". Hey knucklehead, why don't you find a real message board where you're not an anonymous hit and run poster. Once again:

mormondiscussions.com

Bond...James Bond

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:07:00 AM, Anonymous Galatian said...

Obviously the idiot TBM's haven't bothered to read the article in full. My brother has appealed and done numerous things legally/in court and the ruling has not been over-turned.

The reason I blame the church is because they pay for lawyers and all legal costs for the mother (after pressuring her, guilt-tripping her, coercing her, etc to give up her baby) and they give the father NO RIGHTS at all -- especially if he is non-LDS, because then obviously ... he must be a terrible person and not a fit parent.
After all, only parents that take masonic vows and foolishly give away their money in a fake temple are good enough to be parents ...
... then the church LITERALLY helps to kidnap and hide children away from biological parents and not tell their whereabouts, not negotiate with the parent, and find ways to make sure the father can never see his child. Sure sounds like kidnapping to me!!!!

Anyway, I wash my hands of the sickening TBM apologists. I am done with this post. Most of them haven't even read the article properly or in full, they find excuses to justify the kidnapping of their beloved church, and one even quoted "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Kimball - yet probably has no idea of the sick, twisted advice and quotes that are in there - which Samuel has commented on plenty.

It's sick. It really is.

And I have a feeling that this annonymous poster is Jose again ... the whole "church of your youth" and other tidbits sound quite similar to his BS. These people are really sick and demented. Truly. This is what mormonism produces ... this is the rotten fruits of a rotten organization.

Some posters here that are TBM's try to be all nice, and polite, and to sound reasonable and apologize for their fellow TBM's ... but this is where you guys are headed - you have the same mentality. Maybe you are nice and polite ... but you still make excuses for racism, pedophilia, Smith's false translations and lying, polygamy and the debasing of women, on and on and on ... you still justify, whitewash, excuse, and find ways to live in cognitive dissonance. Jose is just further up the ladder than you are ... take a good hard look and realize what the hell you are JUSTIFYING (even kidnapping??!!!), and what the hell your fellow "righteous and chosen people" the mormons -- are truly believing, and teaching and the cult that you belong to.

It makes me sickened and terrified t know that these twisted predators and liars and people in denial and cognitive dissonance are walking around belonging to a powerful cult (richer than the Catholic church because of all the INDULGENCES ... ooops, I mean TITHES), trying to get mormons elected president, controlling Utah, spewing out propaganda and sending pairs of people door to door worldwide in an attempt to recruit more people for brainwashing and indocrtination and cog dis .... when you understand the truth and you look back at the big picture ... it's truly astounding, sickening, repulsive, horrifying, scary and demented.

This is the cult of Mormonism.

These are the fruits of pedophiles and murderers and psychopaths like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They pretty much coerced/raped young teenage girls, they had murderous hit squads do their ordered murders for them, even ordering/condoning one of the biggest mass murders in US history ... building up armies to rival the US, trying to get elected president, it goes on and on ...

Tt is so sad and sick it makes me want to barf. Jose, and commentators like the 'annonymous' above ... are the true vision into Mormonism and its mentality. I know good Mormon people that I like and respect, but they are just on the road to true indocrination and mormon mentality ... Utah, Jose, and others are the TRUE GLIMPSE into what mormonism is truly about.

Take a good, long hard look. Be honest with yourselves. And be afraid. Lest you should become that ....

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:46:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

"And 'Ray' you obviously have no idea how courts work in most places. They will all really ignore the dad and let the mom decide on adoption -ignoring the dad unless she is asking for child support payments off course. Get your facts right!!"

Yes, it is true that the courts tend to favor women over men. There is no doubt about that... but what judge in his right mind would not take the fathers will into consideration? Unless he is TBM or bribed big time by LDS, Inc.

This is probably the ONLY vaild point you have made, Mr. TBM Anon.

We, as a group of ex-Mormons are enraged by what the church has done and you defend it, calling us 'angels of the devil'. Your church is so true that even if you witnessed Boyd K. Packer rape and murder some girl, you would justify it and still have your big old testimony, wouldn't you? And he would still be a flawless apostle, wouldn't he? No matter what happens, your precious church is true.

There are maybe 5 of us here talking amongst ourselves and there are 50,000 missionaries out there defending the church and spreading it's lies. So, according you your logic, the church is more evil than us since it has more people defending it.

If your church is so true, and you have the ultimate power of god, why don't you call down thunder bolts to fry us all to a crisp? After all, that is what god does to his enemies in the Bible. So, come on! If we all get fried tonight by a thunder bolt, then we will know you were totally right. But if I wake up tomorrow morning alive and well, then we will all know that your priesthood is shit and your power is worthless. So there's the ultimatum, dude. I defy your Mormon god, so let him strike us all down.

It happened in the Book of Mormon, right? So it should happen now. How come it wont happen? Because the BoM is gibberish and you don't have shit for the power of god. So shut up or prove me wrong...

 
At Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:10:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Breaking News!!!

Last night five people died, electrocuted in their own homes after a freak but violent thunder storm which only lasted a few seconds...

Victims of this bizarre storm include, Samuel, Ray, Galatians, Bond, and Elder Joseph, all known for their disgust of the LDS church. Several other enemies of the church were wounded but still have a chance to recover.

Witnesses, who refused to reveal their identity, were overheard saying, "Surely this is the work of the lord in these, the latter days. Fear the lord, for he will strike down all who oppose him!"

God is alive and well, folks and he believes in the Blood Atonement more than ever. This just goes to show that you can hide your identity from men, but you can't hide it from god.

 
At Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:08:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, it's really kind of interesting that the higher-ups in the church haven't taken any of you out yet. I'd expect more from a bunch of evil, corrupt, money grubbing, perverted, brainwashed cult worshippers. Especially given how long you have been at this now. Why haven't they? I'm not talking about the bolt of lightning (though that was a good laugh, Ray!), but accidents happen all the time. Gas leaks lead to explosions, brakes go out in cars, hair dryers accidently fall into bathtubs.... Love it. The First Presidency working with like the mafia. Yeah, I figure that's about at likely as Ray's lightning bolt! LOL!

Galatians, I absolutely have never defended racism, pedophilia, kidnapping, or any of the other things you mentioned. I do believe "history" is very easily manipulated, and most likely has been on both sides here - mormons try to make the history a little nicer, antimormons try to make the history as horrible and disgusting as they can - I haven't experienced the things you all have, and I can't say I know the whole history or the REAL truth about any of the stories I've read here (not counting your story, Galatians, which is sad, does happen a lot, but it happens through regular social services too, not just with LDSFS - and I absolutely think it's WRONG!). Not sure if that made sense. Point is, I don't know about the church's history. I wasn't there. I do know that through my whole life as a member, I have never seen or been taught anything racist, I have never been approached by a church leader and asked about anything sexual except "do you keep the law of chastity," I have never been taught to blindly accept everything my leaders say, the debasing of women just doesn't happen where I'm from - although I saw it a lot as a missionary - and the only time mormons acted horrible to me was in high school when most kids were horrible to eachother (these are the ones who drove my brother out - I'm sure they're the same types that you had to deal with Galatians) - not that there's any reason to be horrible to people, but popular snotty little rich kids can really be cruel.... anyway, they never really bothered me much because I was always kind of a geek anyway - plus they all eventually went inactive....

Anyway, Galatians, I'm attempting an explaination on why we defend the church.... I don't think anyone here has said, "well, they had to be racist because black people are evil!" or "well, Joseph Smith had to be a pedophile to further the work!" or any other such nonsense (if they have, then I sincerely apologize for saying otherwise). I defend the church, because 1.)I believe that most of the "evidence" presented here is unreliable (again, not counting your story - and not accusing anyone of shoddy research, but like I said before, histories can be faked) 2.) Other than high school, all of my experiences with the church have been positive 3.)I don't believe anyone living on this earth today is perfect, or anywhere near perfect, and I expect people will make mistakes, mormon or not and 4.)I have a testimony that mormons are not superior to everyone else in the world, we are ALL God's children, created equally, and I believe that no matter who you are, all people are capable of pleasantly suprising you if you give them a chance.

-M.A.

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 4:11:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Notice how our little Anon TBM guy has just slipped away into the shadows? What's up dude? You can't silence us with your imaginary priesthood? Imagine that!

M.A. Glad you had a good laugh. It was rather fun writing it!

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 5:18:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MM wrote earlier, "Yes, they are all pedophiles and murderers, starting with Hinkley. I saw a video about him on youtube where people said that he use to show up to sex parties in salt lake city when he was younger, like 60something, and lots of people saw him. But TBM's just cover it all up. Now he is just too old to do anything. What idiots!!!!!!!
MM"

Ok, so this is news to me. Can you tell me where the youtube video is located..?

Thanks.

Mark in Boise

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 6:57:00 PM, Anonymous Galatian said...

Mark,
It is in a video called "The Godmakers 2" (the sequel to the first one) and I believe it can be viewed on either YouTube or googlevideo. Perhaps I downloaded it off bittorrent ... I can't remember.
The man who made the Godmakers videos has been severely criticized by both mormons and non-mormons for his blunt approach. Personally, although I felt there were a few minor things that were exaggurated or slightly off ... for the majority of the material I felt that it was actually correct and a true representation of mormonism.
The first video (The Godmakers) focuses on Mormon theology - it was made in the 70's or 80's (I can't recall). The second video - the sequel - focuses more on Mormonism, but particularly the RLDS church and their modern practices of polygamy and blood atonement. It is in the second video (if I recall correctly) that a few people accuse Hinkley of throwing parties many years ago which included prostitutes, alcohol and gay affairs.

Is this man credible? I do not know. I suppose it's up to the viewer to decide. It does show several people publicly protesting Hinckley's calling to Prophet - based on his sex parties and prior behaviour. Again, this does not confirm the authenticity of the claims - but does show that some people believed them.

As for me personally ... I do not know what to believe. On the one hand, it seems a bit extreme ... but on the other hand, it's just as believable. 1) Because I know how corrupt the church truly is, and how much it lies.
2) Evangelical and other Christian leaders have been caught time and time again in gay affairs, sex scandals, pedophilia, cover-ups, etc. There was even that latest case of a major Evangelical leader who was found out to be having a gay affair with a prostitute and doing drugs ... his congregation was just bewildered! So you never know ...

I hope this note has helped.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:01:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark: "people said that he use to show up to sex parties in salt lake city when he was younger, like 60something, and lots of people saw him. But TBM's just cover it all up. Now he is just too old to do anything. What idiots!!!!!!!
MM"

Ok, so this is news to me. Can you tell me where the youtube video is located..?"

I just made this up, to show how easy it is to put misinformation on this blog. But, shit, there actually is a video on youtube, godmakers, and it actually has people saying this!!!!!!!....... Dam!! I'll have to check every BS story I make up for this place!!! more wasted time!

Anyway, if anyone belives that Hinkley would do that and never be charged at all, well.....
I think all these anti-mormons in SLC will jump at the chance of seeing Hinkley go to jail for something.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:20:00 AM, Anonymous ray said...

Gordon Hinckley has lived his entire life and a TBM. I highly doubt that he has ever done any of the things he is accused of. Mormons and ex-Mormons alike agree that the Godmakers video is highly exaggerated. If people on the video are saying it, then most likely they were paid to say it.

The only proof they have is a few people on a highly controversial video. Not credible at all in my opinion.

I mean, have you ever heard of a 60 year old going to sex parties? Give me a break. I mean seriously, would the guy make a public appearance at a sex party when he is Mr. PR himself? No... and since there are usually video cameras at such parties, where is an actual video of him? I highly doubt if one will ever be produced.

Why would he risk destroying the entire church just so he could get off publically? Even if he was engaged in such activities, he would do it in private, not out in the open where everyone can see. He would be shooting himself and the church in the foot. And the guy is no idiot... I mean, he has millions of people convinced that he walks and talks with god, and hangs out with Jesus in the Holy of Holies.

So come on, folks. Put two and two together here. It's all speculation and there is no solid proof whatsoever.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:42:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

" have you ever heard of a 60 year old going to sex parties? "

HEEELLLLOOOOOOO, Hugh Hefner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:18:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Galatian, sorry I haven’t “checked in” for a while. I am the one who expressed that I was glad that your niece got placed in a better home than what your suicidal brother could have provided for her. As for being pathetic, sick and fucked up, I would say the sentiments are at least mutual in that we obviously so strongly disagree on this issue.

I love how you launch into a barrage of insults, which further support my belief that that little girl is in a better situation far away from a psychopathic, emotionally unstable, hate breeding aunt like you.

Just like what the other person who posted saying that if she was “kidnapped” as you so claim, just call the FBI or the police, and if there were laws broken, they will return her back to your brother.

As for your suicidal brother, it is not often that only one element or challenge drives a person to the point of emotional instability. It is quite obvious that he has other linger issues which is why the court saw him as unfit to be a single parent of that child. Im sure he was on the track to being suicidal long before his daughter was placed out of his reach. That alone should be a huge indication to him that he needs to get his shit together. If he can’t take care of himself, how can he provide a stable atmosphere for that child. Psychologists typically look at that last 5 years of a person’s life to sum up how a person will act at that given time. People don’t change overnight, and innocent children shouldn’t have to be subjected to an unstable parent if there is a chance for them to be in a good home, regardless if it is an LDS home or not.

What I believe that you are unwilling to understand or to realize (not just you but most of the dissenters in this forum) is that you won’t accept responsibility for the consequences of your poor choices (and no Ray I am not accusing all dissenters of leaving due to sin). Many people leave the church for various reasons, the major reason is sin, but several also leave because they lack faith and are too focused on minute things that draw their attention from the good that any organization or support system can offer.

I love that you claim that the kid will be taught that black are inferior!!! What a laugh that gives me. I don’t know of once that I have been taught that as official church doctrine. You show me one spot in the scriptures (not quotes from “prominent” leaders twisted and taken out of context……Samuel….that comment is for you). You cant because the last time I checked, it was called the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the KKK. Christ is the savior of each person on an individual and very personal level. And He is not a racist.

As for your niece growing up in a “cult”, it will be much better for her in the long run. Because this “cult” does far more good in the world than this little Mormon Truth Forum does. This forum is full of hate and lies, because all it does is create a place for people to come and spend much of their energies on ripping down and mocking others. If you have an issue with the church, big deal? Just go away and live your normal Christian life, but instead you all feel a need to come together and “heal” with one another by telling lies, spreading hate and not living Christian principals, which is ironic to me because so many of you claim to do so, but in fact are fueled by hate and rage for example….Galatian said:” THIS LITERALLY MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH AND SHAKE WITH RAGE!!!
“ (hmm….where does hate come from? Clearly this forum must be of God and designed to help heal the pains and sorrows of those who left the evil LDS Inc.Cult because that is how the bible tells us to help heal one another.) What a joke! Antagonistic dissenters are the scum of the earth, and will continue to be, because they can leave the truth, but they can’t leave it alone. You will be miserable and continually blaming the church for the rest of your life, until you one day realize that you were wrong. Perhaps in the future your niece will contact you from “a better place” (within the church and with a loving family) and will reach out to you to help you realize that the only person to blame is yourself for the hate you let harbor and grow inside your soul and rob you of any hope of true happiness that just becomes further diminished by your rage against the truth that you have trampled and mocked. Amen.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:56:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Anon at 1:18, you're not really helping my cause here. What the heck is wrong with reaching out and trying to understand? Why all the name calling and judging? What gives you the right? Do you really think you're doing anyone any good by coming here and proving every single thing they're saying about mormons???? Where do you get off taking one person's tragedy and telling them it's their own fault? Were you there? Do you have any idea what Galatians or her brother went through? Do you have kids? Have you ever lost one? Do you know anyone who's ever lost a child? How can you call yourself a follower of Christ and still be so incredibly heartless?

When did Christ ever hateful and rude to anyone? When did He condemn a person for their beliefs? Even after being tortured and beaten and hung on the cross, Christ forgave those who wronged Him. You're worse off than Samuel, Galatians, or anyone else posting here will ever be, because as much as they don't believe in the church, they're not hypocritical about it.

And that's all I have to say about that.

-M.A.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Why all the name calling and judging? What gives you the right?”

I’m not trying to come off as a goody goody Mormon. I see this site not as a place for people to come together and heal, but more of a place where people who breed hate come together to place blame and condemn others, which is the only consistent thread. Samuel hates the LDS leaders, and many of his groupies do the same. So if this is a place to come and “Expose Truth” then I am in the right place.

The people here in this forum call it like they see it, and they are entitled to their opinions on subject matter just as I am to mine. Galation doesn’t even know me yet assumes I support racism, kidnapping and a list of other accusations simply because I align myself with the over all scope of what the LDS church is trying to do, which is to make life better for people. All because she is pissed and needed someone to vent her hate toward, so she chose the church. I am simply call her bullshit out on that, because the Church in this scenario did what I feel was and is best for that kid, based off of the limited info she chose to share with us about it. I'm no Mormon apologetic, trying to apologize for ant "wrongs" of the church.

So, if you feel I’m not helping your “cause” whatever your motives may be (you’re sure not going to get any converts here) well thats ok cause my reason for being here is to call them out on what I feel is bullshit just as they do to the Mormon leaders.

And if I’m so bad off for coming here to vent, then I guess its’ because misery loves company, right? Amen!

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:39:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

"Christ is the savior of each person on an individual and very personal level. And He is not a racist."

Actually, Jesus was racist. Please refer to the following verse in the Bible: Mat 15:22-26

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:46:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Jesus referring to Canaanites as dogs? He has only come to save a certain group of people? Where did anyone get the impression that Jesus' gospel is for everyone? This verse is very clear that Jesus is racist. It came out of his own mouth and is quoted directly in the perfect word of god.

So it appears that the Mormons know Jesus better than anyone else; they are just following his racist example.

 
At Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:40:00 AM, Anonymous Alan said...

To me this appears to be a sob story. It is sad that the biological father was not able to share in the joy of his little girl but the girl didn't even want him to know that it was his child. Unfortunately, being a male limits most of our rights as parents. This is not something the LDS church does but they are actually state laws that allow this. If the girl isn't comfortable with the birth father she can give the child up for adoption without the Father's consent. I don't agree with this but it is the law in many places. It's sad what happened but it is not the churches fault.

 
At Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:40:00 PM, Anonymous The Agent said...

There are many tragedies in the story posted by Galatian.
First was the fact that she was in foster care, and had to suffer through the whole ordeal. I can understand your fascination with the LDS church as you explained and how much you struggled within it. It is not easy to have all that baggage and then join a church on the other extreme of it.
I do not agree with giving away a child for adoption unless the parent cannot take responsibility for himself or herself. I mean, if my daughter had a baby I would help her through raising that child because that child also belongs to my family.
I can see someone saying that it would be better for a child to be adopted than to live with a parent with a history of drugs, alcohol etc...But as far as bending the law to make it happen. Or hiding the fact. That is wrong.
I am LDS, a convert since I was 18 (now 41), and it shocks me to read some of the language used in this blog. Maybe it is more the hate that comes through it that shocks me.
I was a Catholic, somewhat devout, and I knew its history pretty well.
But it quite never fit with me.
My conversion was not an easy one. It took a lot of reading and pondering and even a talk with a Catholic bishop.
But I joined the LDS church and served a mission a year later, with no regrets.
I was very honest in my missionary work and insisted in never using pressure tatics. I truly loved the people of the area and my intent was just to tell them my views and let them make up their minds. Just like I did. But that is not how every missionary worked, but many did.
I am not trying to apologize for the LDS Church. I believe there were mistakes made, for example with the priesthood being negated to blacks. I am still waiting for an apology, someday I hope. I am studying the JS polygamy history right now, which has been very hard to understand (Yes, like M.A., I knew about it too).
I do have an issue with BY. Right now in my life I chose to ignore his opinions and most of his teachings because they are not in line with most of the NT and BoM.
I guess I have a different way to deal with the LDS Church, since I am a convert. I do question a lot of things and have read a lot of books, pro and con, which drives my wife crazy. I explained to her that is how I entered the LDS Church so I must continue to research.
I also have a relationship with God that started when I was young child. So that is not based in any creed or church. So that will always stay with me.
I do have an issue with tithing. It has been very hard to pay it, so I passed that responsibility to my wife. It is hard for me to deal with our debt and still pay it.
I do, must say, support most of the LDS Church doctrines like God the Father and the Son as two beings, different degrees of glory, hell not being a physical place, plural gods albeit only one Father.
Anyway. I do understand some of points made here, I might not agree with some, and I am researching others.
I do hate BYU football, The Osmonds, and close-minded people in general.
I am not a perfect Mormon, I do try to live my life to best I can. My extended family are good non-member family, with great values, awesome education, and great careers.
To change my path it would be hard, my wife would suffer a lot (she is not into studying the past as much as I am), and my kids with loose some of their security. But for me to choose to leave the LDS Church, it would have to be a major change of heart. I would have to have God guide me out just like he has been guiding my life. I know it sounds crazy but I can see his guidance through many events in my life that were not church related.
Again, Galatian, I am sorry for your experience, I wish you and your brother all the best.
I will keep watching this place.
Regards,
The Agent

 
At Wednesday, October 31, 2007 12:28:00 AM, Anonymous The Agent said...

I just wanted to post this info about marriage in the 19th century England. I am not condoning anything but just providing food for thought:
"Before Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753 there was no lower legal age of marriage, except during the 1650's when it was 16 for men and 14 for women. In 1753 it was fixed at 14 for men and 12 for women and remained at that until the Age of Marriage Act 1929 when it was raised to 16 for both."
Above taken verbatim from The Family Tree Detective by Colin D Rogers
In this case the couple's ages were:

22.10.1824 (date of paper) At Corsham, Wilts., George Smith, aged 15 to Honour Sumbler, aged 13 years and 9 months.

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1969.html

Man, that is pretty young.

Regards,
The Agent

 
At Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:05:00 AM, Anonymous The Agent said...

Again....
California was one of the first states to raise the age-of-consent. In 1889, it raised it from 10-years to 14-years and then, in 1897, raised it again to 16-years; in 1913, it raised it to its current level of 18 years-of-age.
http://www.counterpunch.org/rosen08142007.html

 
At Tuesday, January 08, 2008 1:46:00 PM, Blogger Galatian said...

Wow it sure has been awhile, since I looked at this posting!

Well your stats really prove nothing Agent, because I can tell you that here in BC the legal age of consent is 16 ... but that if a 38 year old man was having sex with a 16 year old girl he would be considered a sicko and a pervert and a quasi-pedophile. It is most definitely NOT the norm, even if some people do it -- and I think we can all agree that those people are a bit sexually/mentally disturbed, like Joseph Smith was.

And as for the rest you mentioned, well I must say plainly that it seems to me your way of "dealing with things" is more or less denial. You openly admit that basically all the points against the church are valid and not lies, and yet you can somehow live with that?

I don't know how I could ever live with the things Brigham Young has said, knowing about genocides, killing squads, Smith screwing teenage girls, no evidence for the BOM and on and on ... I could not just "put that on the shelf and have faith" like so many do. DENIAL isn't just a river in Egypt ...

Take care. I sincerely hope you will accept the truth one day.

 
At Saturday, February 16, 2008 7:56:00 PM, Anonymous INTJ Mom said...

Very tragic story about Galatian's brother. I'd heard about the LDSFS pressure tactics, I didn't know they were into smuggling babies across borders, etc.

As for people making comments about the passionate posting here, might I remind them of a quote from good ole Orson Pratt: "The Book of Mormon must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions. The nature of the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; If false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. If, after a rigid examination, it be found imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of deception, and to be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion may be exposed and silenced by strong and powerful arguments by evidences adduced from scripture and reason." (Orson Pratt's Works, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon: Liverpool, 1851, pp. 1,2)

Keep publishing to the world people.

 
At Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:56:00 PM, Blogger handmaiden said...

Heart-felt story. I feel a common pain. handmaiden

 
At Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:31:00 PM, Blogger Ivanwho said...

I too was abused as a child and feel empathy for your painful past.

You make a lot of assumptions about who did what. Then later claim you know "they" did it.

Such exaggeration about the LDS Church however, brings that whole part of your story into question:
But from what I learned from my brother - this is happening to hundreds of thousands of people every year in Canada and especially the USA.


A quick check of numbers might be good. Even 12,000 adoptions would not be 100s of 1,000s. Does anybody have more recent numbers on this?

http://bestadoptioncenter.com/adoption-statistics/adoption-statistics.php

LDS adoption statistics

In 1998 there were over 12000 LDS unwed mothers. Only 1984 of those mothers were served by LDS family services. Only 518 infants were placed for adoption through LDS family services.

 
At Friday, January 25, 2013 6:32:00 PM, Blogger Twin Stars said...

Dear Galatian,

I feel your pain. As an 18 year old, unwed Mormon girl in Utah, I experienced the same pressure, guilt, and shaming by the Mormons to relinquish my child as well. My experience is very similar to yours except that after I had my child and tried to keep her, the LDS Social Services "therapist" threatened me with a $10,000(USD) bill for my medical expenses if I did not sign the relinquishment documents. In 1977 that was a huge sum since minimum wage at that time was $1.89 USD/hour. I would have taken me over 3 years to pay it back (after taxes) if I gave them ALL of my pay! They had already threatened me with loss of membership if I didn't obey, and had convinced me that I wasn't fit to be a mother because of my "iniquity" for being a fornicator. With all the pressure and no parents to support me, I caved in and signed the papers. Does the Mormon church kidnap children? You bet they do! And in Utah, 36 years since my experience, they still do; check out this newspaper article: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55373764-78/achane-adoption-bland-child.html.csp

 
At Friday, January 25, 2013 6:56:00 PM, Blogger Twin Stars said...

Dear Galatian,

I feel your family's pain. As an 18 year old Mormon girl in Utah, I was pressured, guilt-tripped and shamed into relinquishing my child too. My experience was very similar to yours, except that after my baby was born and I tried to keep her, the LDS Social Services "therapist" told me that I would have to pay back a $10,000 USD bill for "medical expenses" if I did not sign the relinquishment documents. At that time I was only able to make minimum wage at $1.89/hour (USD). It would have taken me over 3 years (after taxes) to pay it back if I gave them ALL of my money! They had already threatened me with the loss of my church membership if I didn't obey, and had convinced me that I was unfit to be a mother because of my "iniquities." Since I had no parents to support me, I caved in and signed the relinquishment papers. Does the Mormon church kidnap children? You bet they do! And in Utah, 36 years after my experience, they still do. Check out this newspaper article: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55373764-78/achane-adoption-bland-child.html.csp

 
At Friday, December 09, 2016 7:25:00 AM, Blogger Amipano said...

I am looking for a Family Law attorney for Bakersfield Kern County in California. My daughter still believes the Church is true and believes God has told her that her sister in law and her husband should keep her 2 children. My daughter and I have been fighting this Mormon family from the day she was married. My daughter's mother in law orchestrated the stealing of both her children. Each child was removed from the State of Hawaii to Bakersfield and waited till jurisdiction was achieved and then filed for a Guardianship. Everything they have done is considered Unjustifiable Conduct according to a Rule that the jurisdiction should be declined. But the Bakersfield court proceedings are a joke and you are lucky if the so-called judge actually reads the Objection to the Guardianship. The woman who orchestrated this Unjustifiable Conduct has been a member of the Church her whole life and is considered an outstanding member in the Church. My daughter and I went to the Bishops hoping they would tell this woman to bring back my daughters two children. First Bishop said he didn't want to get involved. The second Bishop said to leave the kids with this childless couple. Really? What happened to families are forever? Is there a Good Samaritan out there who can help make two wrongs right? My phone number is 808 220-2439 and I just want the truth be known in Court and have my two grandchildren returned to their mom, my daughter. They are still brainwashing her into believing that this is the best sacrifice she can do for her children and her children will thank her for it. My daughter is practically giving up because she is brainwashed into believing that this is God's will! Wtf! Sorry for swearing but what grandmother tells her son to give his two children to his sister who can't have children and take them away from their mother without her consent. We don't have the kind of money to fly to Bakersfield and hire an attorney to fight for my daughters own children who were stolen in the name of God and the True Church. Please help me.

 

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