Tuesday, February 27, 2007

Another Mormon, This Time A Missionary, Accused Of Sexually Assaulting A 12-Year-Old Boy. If This Is True, Where Was The Inspiration To Prevent it?



Well, like I said in the Title, if this is true and Kyle Michael Saucier did what he's accused of; where was the inspiration to prevent it? I mean once again, it happened pretty close to Hinckley himself and once again, he had no idea that it was going to happen or had happened, until when? When the police arrested Kyle of course, just like Clayton R. Hildreth, the Stake President in Montana( driving to Boise, Idaho, to have sex with a 14 year old girl, arriving with condoms, a gift of a thong for the girl and a digital camera), the BYU professor Robert Jackson, the returned missionaries/MTC teachers(Oleg Barabash and Paul Turner) and of course, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir member, Robert Matthews. I guess you can't get any closer to Hinckley than the choir, unless they were in the hierarchy, right?

Just a note, to expound on Oleg Barabash, from the Salt Lake Tribune and the court documents:

"[Oleg] Barabash was arrested in May for allegedly molesting the boy, who was 12 at the time, several times over a period of months, beginning about September 2005. Barabash allegedly touched the boy’s penis, kissed him on the lips, sat the boy on his lap, exposed his penis to the boy and played a game pretending the boy was a baby so Oleg could remove his 'diaper', court documents state."

And this sick, perverted, piece of shit worked at the MTC and went to BYU, completely undetected(what spirit of discernment) until when? When the victim came forward and THE POLICE ARRESTED HIM!! Are you getting the picture? Oh yeah, and his buddies from the MTC coming to cheer him on and support him, was certainly a nice touch, wasn't it?

I mean we can go all the way back to Mark Hofmann defrauding and selling them forgeries and blowing people up, and George P. Lee(a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy), who was sexually molesting a young girl for 3 years, all undetected, right under the hierarchy's noses, until the police arrested them of course. I'm just trying really hard to figure out what exactly Hinckley is a Prophet, Seer and Revelator of?

If he can't detect future sexual abuse, that affects these children they claim to love so much, than what the hell is he getting revelation about? In other words, he's worthless!! He doesn't know anymore about anything that's going to happen than you or I or Mickey Mouse. And people stand and sing "We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet" when he walks in a room and sustain him by raising their right hand? Why? For what reason? What in the name of the Mormon God or any God or Buddha, has he done to deserve that?

He can't predict Tsunamis(laughing it up with Larry King and presenting him his genealogy, the night before 250,000 people were killed), earthquakes, storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, flooding, fires, murder, sex abuse, rape, incest, pedophilia, etc, etc, etc, even by Mormons, some in top leadership positions of trust. So I'll ask again...what exactly is he getting revelations about?

Oh yeah, the really important stuff, like; "build a conference center", "build a visitor center at BYU named after me", "buy Jesus some shopping malls and serve liquor in them, but be closed on Sunday to 'keep the Sabbath day holy'", "re-design all of downtown Salt Lake, putting the Presiding Bishop in charge of the whole construction project", "build luxury resorts in Hawaii", "buy gaming preserves and more cattle ranches", "buy more land in Hawaii, in order to build a 600 home housing development" , "invest in tobacco and alcohol companies, along with those that make hundreds of millions from hard-core porno" and then the biggies...."women can only wear one earing in each ear(according to Bednar, it's a 'relationship breaker' and 'Prophet's pleading') and "READ THE BOOK OF MOR(M)ON, by the end of the year."


Wow, what absolutely stunning revelations and insights, from God's one and only "authorized" and "anointed mouthpiece!!"

How about calling J. Willard Marriott to be an Area Seventy, and assigning him to speak at Stake Conferences, about how the Mormon church has NEVER been involved in a scandal, EVER, while he profits hundreds of millions from porno and alcohol sales in his hotels, on an annual basis? Need I go on?

There are so many other completely "useless revelations", that I could go on forever and ever, like not having any more missionary homecomings or farewells and no more open houses either, because quite frankly, they don't deserve them, as Hinckley said.


Meanwhile, he's inspired to have massive murals painted of himself(and Joseph Smith) and paraded around a football stadium of dedicated cult followers, while the children sang and danced and worshiped him(and Joseph Smith-I thought it was a Joseph Smith birthday bash; where did the Hinckley mural come into play?), as the audience cheered wildly and bounced around a huge, inflated Book of Mormon. My God, it sounds like North Korea, doesn't it? Holy shit!!

Then he's inspired by the Mormon God, to have personal birthday bashes for himself, nationally televised on the BYU channel and here locally on KSL, the NBC affiliate, with famous people being flown in to narrate, like Mike Wallace and then Donny Osmond and Gladys Knight to serenade him, as he just sits back smiling and soaking it all up, like the cult leader he truly is. Just remember though, according to his daughters; he's very shy, humble and hates the limelight. Yeah, it sure looks like it, as he waves his cane around in every public appearance.

Anyway, I'd like you TBMS out there to explain this to me and all ex-Mormons and the rest of world that cares about it; why doesn't Gordon B. Hinckley ever save any lives from tragedies, prevent sexual molestations and rape and murder or kidnappings or terrorist attacks or warn the world about natural disasters? Why don't missionaries deserve homecomings and farewells, but he deserves million dollar, televised birthday bashes? Anyone?


Also, please don't respond with the bullshit about "free agency baby." If it was all about "free agency", then Noah wouldn't have built the ark and Moses wouldn't have parted the Red Sea(you do still believe those are literal accounts don't you?), and there would never be any intervention of any kind, right?

If you do believe that the Mormon God intervenes, like Ballard claimed the other day, when the missionaries that were taken hostage in Nigeria were released; then please explain why he intervened for them, but allows other Mormon missionaries(and other innocents all around the world on a daily basis) to be brutally raped and tortured for hours and killed regularly?

So, does the Mormon God only hear "Mormon prayers"(since only worthy Mormons can have "The Gift Of The Mormon Holy Ghost") and even then it's a pick and choose deal, that we can't ever understand in this life, due to some higher purpose and plan of the mysterious, schizophrenic Mormon God?


By the way, this blog and my podcasts, are a no burning bosom/testimony zone, and I want facts, evidence and answers that involve logic, truth and reasoning, not mystical, self-fabricated feelings that come from some supposed bosom thats on fire. In other words, I want REAL ANSWERS and not apologetic BULLSHIT!!

I'll be awaiting your responses.

Samuel the Utahnite

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32 Comments:

At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:17:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why? for the same reasons Jesus chose Judas; or Kings Saul/David/Solomon where chosen; also apostle Paul allowed to oversee people dying before his conversion....and many others, alma the younger etc even Steve Benson or Samuel the Utahnite who where accepted as good members until you both decided to leave the church. It's all still a simple test of faith.
It's the oldest test in existence and continues for peoples souls and you are now obviously playing for the opposing team.
John

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:39:00 AM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Hey everyone ,

Just an update .I’ve been chatting to a die hard genuine loving Mormon .She has served 3 or 4 missions . She is the ultimate true honest believer . She is so sincere that she offered to help me with my ‘difficulties’ . I told her she might loose faith and please maybe not to bother with me ( she’s elderly ) . She knows I’m so sincere and wouldn’t let go of me . She said its impossible to loose faith because she knows THE CURCH IS TRUE through Testimony ?

Well she nearly fainted on the first hurdle , my first point was how did Joseph Smith Translate The Gold Plates ? I got a 5 minute explanation and drawing of a breastplate and Urim and Thumin . I was shaking with fear at what I was about to show her . It was not an easy thing to do for me and I’d rather not have had to show her . She shed some tears . It was an awfull moment for me and just reminded me of this EVIL CULT called Mormonism and its LIES . She’s now in possession of John Dehlins Podcasts from Mormonstories.org and the links to his Top Ten Issues . She was absolutely SHOCKED at what she learnt today , but was in genuine ? denial , I could see her mind torturing as she looked for explanations. I’m not saying this as some kind of victory because everyone is a victim in this Mormon Fraud . She is sincerely going to listen to everything on his podcasts and try help me out . What a beautiful person she is . I told her that she inspired me to Jesus Christ like no one else .

We briefly looked at Polygamy from Todd Comptons book and she was devastated he married 11 married women . She said its impossible , it totally defies the way polygamy was commissioned of God , so it must be false ? and also he needed permission from Emma ???? How Naive can you be in this cult ??The teens bit troubled her too . Today she learnt more factually in an hour than her whole life in church and that’s the tragedy of it .I didn’t want to show her anything originally but she insisted,wondering how I couldn’t get a TESTIMONY ? , genuinely believing that all my information was just antimormon lies and it wasn’t .It was from The Church Historians Richard LYman Bushman and Rusell M Nelson’s talk which no mormon I’ve come across has ever seen until I mentioned it ????

She said the most beautiful thing about the Ensign pics of Joseph Smith sat with the plates with his scribe next to him quote ( paraphrase ) “ That means those pics are a fraud really, if it wasn’t anything like what we’ve seen now , its how I was brought up with them “ ……………….. Amen !

We need to do as much as possible to stop anyone getting involved with Mormonism from the beginning . Trapped in a spin of deception , lies , mental coercion , fear , money extortion and vulnerability to the few potentially SICK and MENTALLY ILL Priesthood leaders drunk with their Meichizedek Authority . The power to Heal , the power to move mountains , and the reality of it all ??? Nothing but rambling on and on with same words , I by the power of the holy melchiz blah blah blah !

The effects are devastating when or if they find out the Hoax of it . I can see how many who have left the faith don’t want to help anyone out .Its an agonising thing wondering what to do for the best . I agonised and held back my reservations from her for over a year until she finally squeezed me to be open with her …. And look at the results ?


Now I understand the Cruel Reality of Mormons coming to the realisation of who really is telling the truth ??

I’m glad I’ve only been an investigator , all those sacrifices people have and are making of time and money and for what ???? A FRAUD ! perpetrated by Joseph Smith who went on to sexually abuse women for their salvation under the guise of a God instituted Polygamy …. It’s sickening .

Elder Joseph

Ps I really hope she will be able to show me I am wrong …. Because then it means I can join Christs’s only true church, redeem myself , my ancestors and who wouldn’t want that really . What a marvellous thing that would be to me . I fear I’ve let a genie out with which I’ll feel the backlash on me on me from my local ward Danites in the weeks to come . If I get answers you’ll be the first to know about them !! I’m as intruiged as you are … :)


Samuel .. Keep up the good work .This is my therapy here .

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:11:00 AM, Blogger Astarte Moonsilver said...

You never cease to amaze me...

I want to post about this on my blog, can I link back to you and proclaim this in my neck of the woods?

I am just blown away by the amount of time and effort you put into this, all your research, all your references, all your podcasts, they are an inspiration.

The work you do here is going to save hundreds of people from wasting their lives in eternal servitude to the Morg.

Keep it up, it's not a waste of time to save even ONE person from this trap.

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:00:00 AM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:45:00 PM, Anonymous Richard said...

Hello Samuel,
I think you put the Mormon prophets on a very high podest.
So they are supposed to prophecy any nontrivial thing?
Even Jesus couldn't do that.
Take a look at Mt 24:34, Mt 16:28, Mk 13:30, Mk 9:1, Lk 21:32, Lk 9:27.
Jesus said that the end of the world would happen in the generation of his disciples, and that some of them would not see death till all these things would happen.

Guess what? That story is about 2000 years old.
Jesus couldn't prophecy a damn thing, and so can't Gordon B. Hinckley and his predecessors.
All those religious institutions only want to gain power.
The Mormon cult is good at that, but they are in no way the only ones.
On the contrary, Mormonism and its bad influence on people is insignificiant compared to Catholic or Evangelical bad influence on their members.

Bible bigots wanting their children to be taught the 6-day creation fairy-tale instead of evolution theory at school;
Catholics condemning the use of condomns, which could save millions of people from HIV/AIDS; millions of dollars being wasted in missionary campaigns instead of helping people in need to live a self-reliable life with their own faith (talking about third-world countries).

Samuel, I don't want to criticize you, you do a good job, and every person not in this brainwashing cult is a "saved person", if he/she doesn't enter another or even worse church.
I just wanted to point out that the problem is much bigger than what you focus on on your website.

Mind-controlling people by imposing fear and brainwashing them from childhood on, this is a trick as old as the old-testament stories of the Tower of Babel or the great flood,
both of which never happened. There never was a global language, and there never was a global flood.

Keep doing what your doing, Samuel, but from the corner of your eye, don't neglect that Mormonism is only a small part in the Big Brother wanting to control us, keep us in fear, doesn't want our education and prosperity.

Organized religion in most of its forms tried to keep people in darkness and fear for millenia.
Only a few sparks led the way out of darkness.
Buddha who taught us to rely only on ourselves, not on holy scriptures or traditions;
the greek philosophers who trusted their eyes more than the myths of the greek pantheon;
the people who opposed the established religions and willingly died for their convictions (most were burnt as witches or pagans);
the great period of enlightenment in which the dark middle ages were driven out, and people started thinking for themselves, like the great philosophers and teachers of old did;
Europe becoming a pillar of non-religious education, people who dared to criticize the church (mostly the catholic church);
the Reformation, breaking down the universal power of the Papacy, leading to plurality of thought and convictions...

The fight of rationality and freedom against the bondage found in the Christian religion is not yet over.
Still, billions of people are enslaved in an outdated worldview and a morality which would insult a barbarian to call it barbaric.

Let's fight this war on all fronts, on the LDS front as well as at the Catholic front, at the evangelical front (sorry Eric "Bikini" Hoffman, but you are a naive fool!) as well as at the Jehova's Witnesses' front.
And maybe one day there will be no human being living in fear of eternal condemnation, an idea imposed onto us by some pastor or priest.

Richard.

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:30:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not sure what your ultimate goal here is. I am sorry that you feel the way you do but would you agree that anger and hatred have never been pathways to achievement or success? I respect your opinion you are entitled to it, but it looks to me that you are just wasting your energies. Your type are a dime a dozen, nothing you say is news or new criticism. Anybody can gain access to the info you have. The only new beef you have is with 70's you've met or the lack of the gift of discernment. Did the apostles not have this with Judas in their midst? Either they did and let him betray them, or they missed it. And don't think that this was before the day of pentacost, because they knew who the Savior was so surly they were close to the spirit and heavenly inspiration. So how did they not DISCERN what Judas would do? Oh well, looking at the iTunes popularity rating, "Carol of the Bells" has like 10x the popularity of your pod cast, which is pretty funny. Anyways I have just wasted my time writing this, I would say, just find what makes you happy and pursue it, and leave what makes others happy to themselves.

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:59:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Astarte Moonsilver,

No problem if you want to copy my posts and put them on your blog and I appreciate you posting my name and blog as a reference too. My ultimate goal is to spread the "real Mormon truth" to as many people and places as we can and help as many people as we can and by you doing this; it will just help in that goal and reach even more people.

I've spent literally thousands of hours, my savings and dedicated my life over the last 21-22 months, to researching, posting, recording, etc about the "Mormon Truth" and I've received a ton of help from a lot of people, in order to put together all of the links I now have. I basically saved every link that I ever came upon and organized them.

I want to help you and anybody else out there, just like they helped me when I was starting all of my research. I just want as many people as possible to have the truth in their hands and mind and whoever wants to help in that process is okay by me. If I can make that process easier and save someone hundreds or even thousands of hours...that's awesome!! Somethings are like looking for that proverbial needle in a haystack and I'm just glad to help.

Helping people discover "the truth" of Mormonism is such a passion of mine and thank you so much for your support. I'm glad that you find my posts helpful to that end and feel free to use anything you find here, to help those out there looking.

Also, I love your last post, with all of the racist quotes, starting with what Kimball said about the Lamanites in general conference, which means it was "official modern day revelation", to be put up on the mantle with their BOM/D&C/Bible and P of GP.

Does anyone really think that those in attendance that day, thought that Kimball was just expressing personal, bullshit opinions and that he wasn't speaking for and in behalf of God, as one of his Apostles and "Prophets, Seer and Revelators?!!"

When I was first coming into "the truth", those words of Kimball(along with all of the other horrific, racist comments), rocked my soul to its core and I still can't believe what a racist piece of shit he was. I'm sure it pained his racist ass to have to cave into the societal pressures, since he wasn't one who really wanted blacks to ever have the Priesthood. Now the Morg celebrates how much he loved the blacks, how he gave them the Priesthood, etc. Believe me, he had no choice and no God had anything to do with it.

Take care and feel free to leave a comment or copy my posts anytime,

Samuel

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:01:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

To the Anon from Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:30:42 PM,

"I am not sure what your ultimate goal here is."

My ultimate goal is to help as many people as possible to know the truth about Mormonism and what a fraudulent cult it truly is. It is based on nothing but lies, corruption and fraud. I'm here to help those that are questioning, those that are investigating and about to be baptized and those that have already discovered the truth and are looking for a place to express themselves and find others that share and understand their pain.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do but would you agree that anger and hatred have never been pathways to achievement or success?

Who are you, God or Jesus Christ himself? First of all, you don't have to feel sorry for me and are you the moderator of the world and have all the answers? I completely, 100% disagree that anger and hatred "have never been pathways to achievement or success." So, you're one of these brainwashed Mormons, that believe that "contention is of the Devil?" What would have happened if the world didn't feel intense anger and HATE Hitler?

I personally feel that people who don't HATE evil and vile things and are just passive about them, have a screw loose. You must live in the gray world of nothing is right or wrong, hot or cold, etc. It's called cult indoctrination and brainwashing and it numbs your brain to a point where you don't feel anything or even care about anything that doesn't involve Mormonism.

I respect your opinion you are entitled to it, but it looks to me that you are just wasting your energies. Your type are a dime a dozen, nothing you say is news or new criticism. Anybody can gain access to the info you have.

First of all, you don't really respect my opinion...come on...you think I'm dead wrong, mis-guided and gonna be a "son of perdition", right?!! Brigham Young calls us "anti-Christs", Packer says we're "full of darkness" and "disease germs", while Ballard says to "run from us as fast as you can."

I also find it hilarious how many of you out there take the time to state that I'm "just wasting my time", that I'm "a dime a dozen" and that "nothing I say is news or new criticism."

Yet here you are, taking the time to tell me how I'm wasting my time and that "anybody can gain access to the info I have." If I'm so useless and affecting nobody and reporting nothing that is newsworthy; then what the hell are you doing here talking to me? I guess that's a true Oxy Mor(m)on, isn't it?

The only new beef you have is with 70's you've met or the lack of the gift of discernment. Did the apostles not have this with Judas in their midst? Either they did and let him betray them, or they missed it. And don't think that this was before the day of pentacost, because they knew who the Savior was so surly they were close to the spirit and heavenly inspiration. So how did they not DISCERN what Judas would do?

It was all part of the plan of bullshit man. Ever study up on the book of Judas? It paints quite a different picture, but is probably way over your head. Jesus for sure knew that Judas would betray him and depending on what story you believe; asked Judas to betray him.

It's all a huge crock of shit and anyone that is a "TRUE CHRISTIAN" should be jumping up and down with Joy, that Judas betrayed Jesus, no matter the reason, because it was all part of God's and Jesus' plan, right? You should be overjoyed that Christ was betrayed and then crucified and should be thanking those who did it, because it HAD TO HAPPEN, right?

You should love the men that pounded in the nails, because it was pre-ordained before the world was and God the Father watched it all happening and did nothing, just like he/she/it does today, as countless innocent people are raped, murdered and tortured on a daily basis, without any intervention from the all loving, all powerful God, who knows horrible things are going to happen before they do and DOES NADA.

Judas, and those that crucified him, were a very important part of God's plan and so they should be celebrated, shouldn't they? Where would we all be without those evil SOBs, right? Oh yeah and thank God for Satan too, because if he didn't tempt Eve in the garden, they'd still be there just petting lions and tigers and bears, unable to reproduce, right? Thank you Satan!!

Oh well, looking at the iTunes popularity rating, "Carol of the Bells" has like 10x the popularity of your pod cast, which is pretty funny. Anyways I have just wasted my time writing this, I would say, just find what makes you happy and pursue it, and leave what makes others happy to themselves.

Well, if you weren't a complete dumbass, you'd realize that you can narrow it down to just podcasts on the top and my podcasts are currently ranked 9th, 18th and 21st. 3 podcasts in the top 21 ain't too bad, is it?

Before iTunes deleted my original podcast last year, and I had to re-post it, I was ranked number one for 6 months running and had 56 reviews. I haven't even put out new Mormon Truth or Mormon Truth Uncensored podcasts for over 7 months(except the small one the other day) and yet I'm still ranked that high.

What will happen soon, when I'm putting out 2-3 podcast episodes a week. I will soon have 5-6 podcasts listed there and I bet they'll all be in the top 20 or close, if not closing in on the top 10. I currently have around 30,000 monthly listeners and growing, despite no new material, except the Mormon Truth Interviews podcast.

So yeah, that is pretty funny, isn't it? Of course I reach no one, am having no impact and nobody cares what I say. The stats are the facts and people are hungry for the truth.

But yeah, you did just waste your time, talking to someone that you think isn't having any impact, so you need to ask yourself why you did that.

You say:

"Just find what makes you happy and pursue it, and leave what makes others happy to themselves."

Why do you care what I do if I'm not impacting anyone and not sharing anything new, that everyone has easy access to? Helping people leave Mormonism makes me VERY VERY happy and it is VERY VERY rewarding. I love especially helping entire families, with children, to escape the cult and know that they won't be serving missions or asked if they masturbate or look at porno, in private, behind closed doors, by a perverted Bishop, at the age of 12. Praise the Mormon God for that!!

I also love helping investigators of Mormonism, that are on the brink of baptism, to NOT get baptized. I've received literally thousands of Emails thanking me for what I do and you are certainly in the very small minority Anon and ironically, it is YOU, that has ZERO impact on me or what I do. Now go back to your little cult, bow your head and say YES!!

Best wishes,

Samuel

 
At Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:41:00 PM, Anonymous Northern Utah said...

Wah who! You go Sam.

We love your posts. Too bad the ingrates will never get it-at least not until the day of reckoning comes.

I wonder though....why are they reading your post? Doesn't this go against the Profits advice of keeping their minds pure?

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:39:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just want to say that I love what you are doing here. I started to learn the reality of the Mormon church about a year ago. I just found this blog last week and I can't seem to read it fast enough. I have learned that I am not the only one struggling with the strange things that go on in this so-called religion.
Its so odd that the church would let things like this happen. I heard a news story a while back that was similar to this one and the bishop knew what was happening to the child and said nothing to anyone. He just kept it to himself. Eventually it came out and the bishop was chastized for it but, how can anyone learn of something like that and just put it in the back of their mind and let it go? Its just terrible.

E.M.

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:25:00 AM, Anonymous ray said...

Welcome E.M. I've only got a few minutes here this morning but I surely remember that phase when I couldn't find enough to read about the church. And I remember feeling sick in my stomach after learning certain things. They really do a number on your mind, don't they?

Welcome to the real world.

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:25:00 AM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Here is the true face of Mormonism , when I started investigating they were all around me , praising me . saying you are so good , amazing blah blah ...Well 18 months on and they are frustrated that they haven't got me baptised so now I start to see the real side of some of these Mormons .

I've been told in church that if I was sincere then I would have got the answer by now ? Why are they threatening me like this ? because I ask too many questions and its caused a few new converts to rethink what on earth they've really got themselves in for .

I was told not to show JOD's to the blacks in church or anything I find to those weak in the faith , but instead bring it straight to the Bishopric ??? Yea so they can bin it.

When I ask a good question ,some reply " whats your motive for asking that " ? So I ask them will you answer something for me ? the reply " Depends on the spirit in which you ask " ....

It seems that all those promises of ask your questions and we will help is a load of rubbish . Its amazing what a little knowledge of Real Truth can do to GODS ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH .

I recommend Grant Palmers book "An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins" . It shows the true origin of the whole Mormon Thing and what I have been taught by the church and the missionaries is a TOTALLY BOGUS FALSE DECEPTIVE VERSION of events .

If they taught the true origin in the beginning then NO ONE would join .

I'm grateful to these LDS CES Scholars for revealing the truth after all this time but I'm a bit concerned that Grant Palmer waited so long to tell all . But I can understand it , The church threatens to take your Job and pension from you if you tell the truth and this is another sinister side to Mormonism . Employment is conditional on keeping your mouth shut ! This is a way of keeping more members in than would stay normally by paying them in a church job .

Let me be clear about my position ,I am open minded and I have a dedicated church member ( served 3 missions )looking into the John Dehlin Podcasts and Todd Comptons Book on Adultery and Fornication of Joe Smith , I'll show her how to resign later on !

This is a Bogus Organisation , and how on earth can they face God in the judgement for harbouring, defending and praising a Paedophile , money grabbing con man like Joseph Smith is beyond me .

They have no conscience and given half the chance they'd probably love to go calling young teens into their own Bogus Exhaltation Folds .. It's sickening ....

There are alot leaving this church and the real tidal wave has yet to begin ! I look forward to the church figures shrinking right before their eyes .

Elder Joseph

Ps When it starts to shrink , there wil be Mormon asses being kicked from High above ! lol

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:13:00 PM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:47:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Hi Misfit Marie,

Your mum is great ! She said

"I do know it was practiced in biblical times and it was practiced by 3 % of our church in the earliest days of it. This is due much to their survival, and when the church grew they did not find it beneficial any longer, and the church also believes in obeying all the laws of the land.....Anyone practicing polygamy today is not a member of the church in God's eyes, and it would be for different purposes then when it was practiced before."

Polygamy was to do with survival ?? eh ? lol But what about Joseph Smith, He started it all by supposed revelation ( from his groin ). Yet all the Mormons and Mormon Apologists I chat with argue he didn't have sex with any of his wives and that they were just sealings ( whatever !! )lol

They can't have it both ways !

Don't make your Mum work too hard though , she might loose her testimony .

The real reason Joseph Smith practiced his so called polygamy was because he was a sex freak looking for girls who he could control and coerse like he did with his other members as The Prophet of God . And really who would dare disobey Gods orders even if it meant having sex with The Prophet .

Joseph Tested his stupid followers by asking for their wives as well? and one or two agreed , How stupid and gullible can you get . Well he married 11 women who were already married and one of them was an apostles wife if I recall correctly from Tod Compton's book !! lol

Shows how deluded these men were and the power Joseph Smith had over them all. A typical cult .

Glad you are sensible MisfitMarie .

Can you imagine some of the Priesthood holder Men in the church now with their Priesthood Power and Authority scrambling to 'call' young women into polygamy with them if it was allowed !!

I bet there are many waiting to be let loose !

Take care .

Elder Joseph

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:24:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Elder Joseph, have you actually researched the authors of the books you are reading? Who is Tod Compton? Who are the people who wrote the "truths" you're reading about? Are you SURE those books are accurate? Can you prove it? Can anyone prove it?

Here's a thought. Maybe the mormons around you are starting to get tired of you because maybe they're starting to think you're a jerk. What purpose could you possibly have for wanting to break an old woman's heart? You say she is your friend? Was she unhappy as a mormon? Just let the poor woman live the rest of her days in her deluded mormon happiness. It just seems so cold and unfeeling to go and do something like that to an old woman. If you really are the good guy that you claim to be, and if you really do want to help people, then think about what you're doing to the people you're bringing away from the church. Yes, I'll give it to you that there are people out there who are happier after they leave the church. But not ALL people are. This woman served three missions. Do you have any idea what a sacrifice it is to be a missionary? It's brutal. And to have done it three times? This woman loves the gospel and obviously lives for it. What good can come out of breaking this woman's heart?

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:39:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

anonymous ,

Cut your crap ! First thing is Todd Compton had good resources where he got his information from .(church members affidavits and more and in church archives too) ,The Fact is the Mormon church Lies everyday and always has done and always will because no one would join if they knew its true SAD and PATHETIC History .

Secondly the old woman ( 3 missions served ) . Listen to this you IDIOT . I've been investigating for 18 months . She has been constantly asking me what is stopping me getting baptised ? I've held back with excuses for too long . She assured me nothing will hurt her because she has a TESTIMONY and SHE KNOWS ITS TRUE!! So finally I though F**K IT ... THIS IS WHY and her testimony didn't help one bit from what i saw !!! I was absolutely fed up with hearing the widows bullshit excuse on polygamy from her and all the other Brainwashed IDIOTS.

Who told her this widows UNTRUTH ? The LDS CHURCH APOSTLES , a bunch of LYING ASSES !! They are the ones responsible for wasting her life and money and not me ... She is struggling in agony over what she's discovered . What am I supposed to do , keep ignoring her asking me what the matter is and then she'll probably think its because I wanted a cup of tea or something stupid, breaking the stupid word of wisdom !! She wanted to help because brainwashed Mormons seem to have difficulty in accepting that some can investigate and declare without a shadow of a doubt that ist FALSE .

They can't get it into their thick head that when we don't join its because we find out its a FRAUD !! operated by LYERS DECIEVERS and WIERDO'S .. An absolute disgrace of a set up .. The sooner it shrinks and dissapears the better . Same with JW's , another bunch of suckered idiots.

Your thoughts keep them to yourself because I'm not going to answer you a second time . The Mormons are tired because I haven't fallen for their Fiasco of a church , I've found out things and it makes them sweat under their white collars . I'm undoing alot of the damage they've started to a few recent converts and they can't stand it ..

What happened to the famous saying " If its not of God it will fail " Obviously my truths to the new converts are of God because some of them are rethinking what on earth they've joined and will soon exit the cult.

Elder Joseph

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:27:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey everyone, as Ray mentioned the other day, I'm going to be doing Skypecasts every Thursday night. I haven't had a chance to a post on it yet. I'm working on that post right now, but probably won't have it out in time for tonights Skypecast.

Anyway, tonight, the Skypecast will be at 6 PM Mountain Time, 5 PM Pacific, 7 Central or 8 if your in the east. Now for those in other countries....well, I'm going to post time zones all over the world on my post.

Anyway, for those that want to join the Skypecast and just listen in, you only need earphones or speakers. For those that want to actually participate, you need either headphones or speakers and a microphone. Headphones work out better for all of us. Also, high speed Internet connection or DSL works best if you want to talk.

Up to 100 people can participate at one time and it's the first hundred that get in. I think as we get through the next few weeks, it will be full every week, so get there early and don't miss out.

You need to download Skype on your computer, which is completely free. It is also free, no matter where you are in the world, even if your on Kolob, to participate. I'm hoping the Mormon God might join us tonight...LOL!!

Here is the link for those that want to join tonight. I will be recording all of these Skypecasts and releasing them as podcasts, so keep that in mind if you plan on participating and don't want your voice out there for the masses to hear.

I control who speaks and who doesn't and I'm probably gonna limit it to 2 people in addition to myself, that are in the speaking area at one time. If you are in the listening area and really have something you want to say, just Text message me and you can move into the waiting area.

Take care everyone and I hope to see you there in about 45 minutes. Talk to you all soon,

Samuel

 
At Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:09:00 PM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 12:18:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the welcome.

Ray,
You are so right. I remember when I first started to find the truth. I was living at my parents and I had to look on the internet late at night so no one would see what I was doing. I was so scared that my parents would wake up and find out that I was doing. They still don't know. I am too afraid of what might happen if I told them I didn't believe anymore. But everyone's comments here are very encouraging. Thanks,
E.M.

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 4:04:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Elder Joseph,

Can I just stand up and salute you man?!! I mean damn dude, if you aren't nailing EVERYTHING on the head, with great and awesome passion, than nobody is. You actually remind me of myself in the very beginning when I was just on fire and so raging pissed off.

I still am very pissed off, as you know, but sometimes I lose that fire a little and you are contagious and got me extra fired up again with your last few posts.

Sometimes it's a great thing to hear the passion from someone like yourself, that wasn't ever a Mormon, but that has done the research(because you care so much about people) and put in the time to get their facts straight and is then completely outraged and furious at what they've found and are seeing unfold right before their eyes and just want to genuinely help others achieve freedom.

I just wanted to say thanks for the fire man, because sometimes I need that, after knowing all that I know for so long now. The lies and deception of Mormonism is something to be raging angry about, especially when it is hurting those you love and care about and destroying your relationships with your family and friends. That's what happens in cults!!

Let's all keep the fire burning and salute Elder Joseph in his great efforts, even though he was never a Mormon. Hearing his stories is both inspiring and sad, because I know the pain that those who are learning the truth, are feeling and it's devastating at first.

Then one day, as the pain subsides and they realize they are now free to believe what they want and explore life, the world and beyond...they will feel a liberation like they never have before. They can now actually expand their horizons beyond a bunch of old farts in Salt Lake and chart their own course through life and learn who they are inside, which is exciting.

I know that Ray and many others also appreciate VERY MUCH what you are doing and you are an inspiration to me and everyone here in "Mormon Truth."

So, thanks again Elder Joseph for all that you do and keep up the great work.....you are THE MAN!!

Samuel

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 11:30:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dude Elder Joseph man I think your rihgt on for spreading the news but man, anon was right. You gatta lay off the old lady. That aint cool man. What if that was your grandma or your mom? You'd hate the guy who broke there hearts. Don't matter that the church might have lied the whole time, you are the guy whose telling her about it. Let the old lady live in peace man. Samuels talking that one day the pain sudbides and they are free to believe whatever an explore life adn all that and he's right, but dude this is an old lday your talking to now. Go save the younger genaration who can join your fight and quit picking on old ladys.

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 1:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there, Elder Joseph...
Anonymous above sparked my curiosity about Todd Compton. This is from a letter he wrote concerning his book, "In Sacred Lonliness," and polygamy.

"...if you had the restorationist idea that everything in the Bible needed to be restored (as many Protestants in early America and Protestant Europe did), practicing polygamy is very understandable, and given that limited perspective, even courageous. In addition, the Tanners may have known that other Protestant groups (such as the early Anabaptists) believed in polygamy and practiced it, and that Luther sanctioned polygamy - -- but they did not mention this. A book that gives some of this background is John Cairncross, After Polygamy Was Made a Sin (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1974) (cited in my book on p. 640), especially pp. 36, 49. Luther and polygamy is a fascinating, complicated story that also includes disparities between public pronouncement and private practice, just as we find throughout the history of Mormon polygamy.

The Tanners made great mileage out of Joseph Smith's marriage to his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball. However, they failed to mention that I wrote that there is absolutely no evidence that there was any sexuality in the marriage, and I suggest that, following later practice in Utah, there may have been no sexuality. (p. 638) All the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage.

Some might ask me, what about many statements by General Authorities saying that polygamy was an eternal principle? I believe in Joseph Smith's adage that "a prophet is not always a prophet"; he, and other Mormon leaders, may have had moments of inspiration, and other moments in which they were expressing their own limited, fallible views. As I state in my book (p. 629), I am a practicing Mormon, of a liberal, Lowell Bennion sort, but I reject absolutist, oversimplified views of religion -- the idea that religious leaders, Biblical or modern, Mormon or Protestant, can be perfect or infallible. I think a non-absolutist view of religion, that allows for cultural and human complexity, is the only religious viewpoint that works, for the thoughtful believer.

Finally, my wish for the Tanners is that they arrive at a more balanced view of Mormonism and their cultural heritage, even if they continue to practice in a Protestant Christian church (which practice I respect). I suspect the Tanners merely looked through my book for negative proof-texting; if so, I hope someday they actually read it completely. Personally, writing In Sacred Loneliness, experiencing the greatness of those thirty or so early Mormon women for five years, caused me to deepen my commitment to my Mormon heritage (within the context of a liberal, non-absolutist faith). I want to be part of the same church those women were part of -- though I am committed to helping the church abandon extremist authoritarianism, censorship of history, and anti-feminism, whenever those things are manifested in the church."

The Tanners Compton is referring to, are anti-mormons who took excerpts from his book, and used them out of context to further their anti-mormon cause. Just some friendly FYI. :)

-M.A.

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 4:02:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

M.A.

Have you read what Helen Marr Kimball Said about the idea of marrying Joseph Smith ?
fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote: “Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives.......Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth.”
From Todd Comptons Book she says “ Is it right for men to take other mens wives “ ? Why would she ask this if it was only a sealing and not in the full sense Screwing……… . The next part talks about establishing the principle again on the earth .What Principle ?Screwing and having seed and nothing else. That’s what it was originally on the Earth with Abraham and all the rest of them. And Read D&C 132 its all about screwing Virgins for procreation ! Go do the works of Abraham it says in that pile of shit revelation .Same with the Book Of Mormon it says in Jacob 2:30 "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up a seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

What is RAISING A SEED ???

And again from his book , she talks about utterly repugnant practices.What else do you need, to understand the nature of these marriages ?
“I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.”

She uses the words pure and virtuous and utterly repugnant !! What is she talking about ??
Use your BRAIN !

If you look in Todd Comptons book there is lots more about Helen Marr Kimball and its all pointing to sexual relations. Maybe he didn't manage in time to stick her one ? Maybe he did . He's not going to do it in front of the congregation is he ??
He married her May 1843. He died a year later and maybe didn't get round to screwing her amongst all his other 33 wives !!!and on the run most of the time watching his back ! Maybe he did ??


You say there is no evidence they had sex . I have no evidence that anyone on the planet has had sex, except if they have kids and how do I know for sure who’s they really are ? .

What evidence is needed . read the agonising words of helen and those involved, except the Pedophile Joseph Smith. He will have revelled in it .... the Pyscho .

Work it out you Numbskull !!

What on Earth is Joseph Smith doing scaring everyone into marriages with him . Its not from God and I know it and you can know it too when you use your head and moral instinct .

As for the old lady thing . Its not me picking on her .Its her picking on me . She’s a brainwashed Mormon . She won’t leave me alone until I get baptised .She insists and if there is nothing to worry about for her , according to her !! , why do you worry ? I'll end up converting ? right ?

Now go and use your intelligences

Elder Joseph

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 6:36:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Hi Samuel ,

Thanks for the comments about my fire and zeal ,

Your podcasts and blogs and zeal have inspired me to be ‘active ‘ lol

I think we can thank the Mormon Hierarchy for our anger . They make me absolutely sick , the cheesy church videos where they are pretending to be so sincere and their acting is bullshit, especially on The Special Witnesses Of Christ DVD . I’m just astounded at who they really think they are . Whe you really think about it …Its absolutely ridiculous .

Have you noticed how they all speak from Biblical Archaeological proved sites like The Garden of Gethsemane and in and around Jerusalem on the Special Witnesses Of Christ DVD and yet at the same time says archaeology is not needed we have faith ? Well where the hell would they have gone to film their stupid DVD if they didn’t have a map and street name and archaeological history to show them ???

The church even has a Huge Building in Jerusalem where Gordon Hinckley introduces their nonsense on the Special Witnesses DVD . When I first saw it and it showed Gordon Hinckley with his back to the camera and then he swing rounds in Presidential style I could see what aload of Bullshit it was …..

Its so sad people fall for this crap , the lonely and vulnerable usually !

They can’t speak on location from the Waters of Mormon , from the Land Of Zarahemla , or anywhere else in the Book Of Mormon because non of it exists and never has . They can’t even speak from Cumorahs Hill because it’s the wrong one !!! hahah And this religion grows each year ..

Its outrageous. In fact it’s a disgrace not to highlight and speak out against this fraud.

These Imposters don’t deserve any members to speak their utter nonsense to .They are all on some kind of self deluded power trip , revelling in Authority and Glory as Priesthood Power controllers . I’ve seen the weak women in church asking for blessings and it makes me sick to think these women actually believe these men have any authority whatsoever let alone the same authority and power which parted the Red Sea for Moses and created the world !! Its MADNESS !!


This is a dangerous mind bending organisation which hold people in fear and then cause distress for many who are in and absolute turmoil to those who figure it out for what it is and want to get out . Of course well know it .

I’m in this long term and to help a special friend. we'll win because the 'real truth' is on our side.

Elder Joseph

 
At Friday, March 02, 2007 9:40:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Elder Joseph,
Look again at where the quotes start and stop in my previous comment. The four paragraphs in the middle there (including where HE says there is no evidence Joseph and Helen had sex) are all Todd Compton's words, not mine.

-M.A.

 
At Saturday, March 03, 2007 2:01:00 AM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

m.a

you obviously are just being ignorant , address my points about the purpose of polygamy in accord with D&C 132 and Jacob 2:30 and the way Abraham practised it ( it was a restoration of this ancient practice ) GO DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM it says in D&C 132 !!

look at helen marr kimballs stressful and fearful words in relation to what she was entering .

Wht evidence you you want ? Helen marr Kimbals Sperm soaked panties ? someone present when they were f**king .

lack of evidence means no one saw then screwing , thats all that is lacking , but if you read the stress her mother was under to sacrifice her only ewe lamb !! you'll appreciate the nature of the marriage .

wake up , I'm not even going to waste time answering you anymore .

Elder Joseph

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:03:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obviously you have some issues you are dealing with in your life and need to run down the mormons to make yourself feel better about you short comings. People in this world choose for themselves if they are going to harm another person. We are taught that we have a choice on what we do with our lives, and yes I can't stand to see young children being hurt, but Heavenly Father allows it to test the rest of us and he knows those children are strong and will be going back to him. President Hinkly can not predict every thing that is going to happen to this world, if he did there would be no trials for man. I have been a member all my life, and this church is not a cult. You are not forced to join it, and even those who are members are still human and they do make mistakes. Just because a mormon molests a child does not mean it is a reflection on the rest of us. If your brother did that to someone does that make you a child molestor as well? Hinkley does not take the money for himself, we as a church pay tithing if we choose and we are blessed for it. It is members of the church who decide to celebrate his birthday and hang pictures of him in our homes and buildings because we believe in him. Do you have pictures of your family up somewhere? No mormons prayers are not only answered, but you have to believe and recognize that they are being answered. When you are not allowing the spirit to come in then of course he can not help you. If you want answers than you have to find them for yourself my praying and studying, instead of blabbing on and on about things that you yourself can not give evidence to. The things you are telling all these people are not fact, but you are trying so hard to convince us all because you are trying to convince yourself otherwise of feelings you have felt in the past. We have also been asked not to gamble because it is addictive, just like alcohol and drugs and porn. My husband knew a family on his missiom where the dad came home to tell his family he had gambled away there whole months income. Tithing goes to building of churches, to help disaster areas, build temples, gambling money goes in the machine and into pockets of the hotel owners. We at least see the rewards. If you would not spend so much time finding out some of the problems of the people in the church, as it is people problems and not the church as a whole, and search for all the good it does you may suprise yourself. I choose to be mormon because I know myself it is true, and I do not run down other people for not believing as I do. If they choose to belive a certain way I accept that, so why do you need to try to run us down? If you do not belive that is fine, but you do not know us all so don't try telling us what we believe when you have no idea. I think somewhere inside you know ti to be true and that scares you. We are a good peolpe, but even in this church there will be peolpe who make bad decisions. There are all different religions where bad things happen in the church, but it is the people and not he church as a whole. So it offends me greatly when others put us down and make fun of our President. Life is to short and you should be trying to help better society than trying to tear it down. No one on this earth will be able to tear this church down. Yes I know people who have gone threw terrible things by members, but Satan is everywhere doing all he can to terrorize man and you are helping him. I do not know you, but I will stand up for what I belive and hope that you can allow us to belive as we do and not fell the need to tear us down. You seem to know alot about he church, you just have some of your findings wrong. If any of you have not read the Book of Mormon than don't act like you know about the religon. I hope for you when you leave this earth.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The good old "Satan is everywhere trying to destroy us!" crap. The next time my cable guy fails to show up ... I'll have to remember that one.

Truth is you don't know WHERE EXACTLY the church tithing fund goes because the church does not publicly announce its profits or expenses or how the money is spent (unlike other Christian churches) and even if the regular members request an accounting - they will not recieve any reports. I dare you to try it for yourself.

The church has spent about 1% of its total gross (if even that much) on disaster relief and charity efforts. The majority of the money goes into financing projects, corporations, and some mysterious deep black hole. Sure there are lots of temples and projects ... but the church is worth around $25 Billion (according to some estimates) and I know that it doesn't cost that much money to build!

I'd like to see you come back and give us a detailed accounting of where all the money goes ... aside from building malls and redoing city squares, etc. I'd love to know myself!

As for the rest of your cult dogma/excuses ... no one should bother to respond because we've heard enough of those excuses after a lifetime in the cult. You don't need to remind us. We used to think that way ourselves. Save us the preachy speeches and self-righteous indignation, thanks.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:40:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not to brag, but you asked. 1985-2006 the church has provided 201.3 million cash donations, 705.2 million in material assistance, 163 countries served, 54,905 tons of food distributed, 9152 tons of medical equipment distributed, 73,226 tons of surplus clothing, 5857 tons of education supplies, 3 million to help 200 million children with measles vaccines, 190,000 wheelchairs at 13.1 million, helped 2500 communities at 3.5 million to obtain clean water, helped with the Pakistan earthquake relief, Katrina/ Rita hurricane relief, Lebannon relief, Indonesia earthquake, Asia sunami relief, helped 30,000 at 1.7 million with their eyesight, 187 major disaster relief efforts, along with building temples, church buildings, upkeep, helping people in our smaller communities. They have excess funds to be ready for any disaster. They may help you someday. Also comes wtih thousands of volunteers and thousands of volunteer hours. So they do let us know how the money is spent, as for shopping malls? We have church bookstores.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not to brag, but you asked. 1985-2006 the church has provided 201.3 million cash donations, 705.2 million in material assistance, 163 countries served, 54,905 tons of food distributed, 9152 tons of medical equipment distributed, 73,226 tons of surplus clothing, 5857 tons of education supplies, 3 million to help 200 million children with measles vaccines, 190,000 wheelchairs at 13.1 million, helped 2500 communities at 3.5 million to obtain clean water, helped with the Pakistan earthquake relief, Katrina/ Rita hurricane relief, Lebannon relief, Indonesia earthquake, Asia sunami relief, helped 30,000 at 1.7 million with their eyesight, 187 major disaster relief efforts, along with building temples, church buildings, upkeep, helping people in our smaller communities. They have excess funds to be ready for any disaster. They may help you someday. Also comes wtih thousands of volunteers and thousands of volunteer hours. So they do let us know how the money is spent, as for shopping malls? We have church bookstores.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:50:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

that is just so awesome

 
At Thursday, January 03, 2013 6:20:00 PM, Blogger Petra Winter said...

"along with those that make hundreds of millions from hard-core porno"

I am a TBM where do you get that info from?

 

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