Thursday, June 14, 2007

"I have no doubt, (based on)what I have studied..that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers/participated in the killing."

MP3 File

This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, from "The Mormons", declaring:

"I have no doubt, on the basis of what I have studied and learned, that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing."

He then also says:

“I pray that he(The Lord) can find a way to forgive those who took such a terrible action against their fellow beings.”

In reality, the Church has already completely forgiven John D. Lee, the only man ever held accountable, who was executed for the crime, while over 100 other men were never held accountable by Brigham Young or anyone else, due to their “vow of silence”, which would result in death if broken.

In 1961, the Mormon First Presidency reinstated all of John D. Lee's blessings, including his temple blessings, meaning that they, the Mormon Hierarchy and Prophet, have indeed completely forgiven John D. Lee, as if he did nothing at all and his sins are now white as snow.

"For more than a hundred years, the families of John D. Lee have borne the opprobrium of the massacre alone. For that reason, they have welcomed every effort to probe the question; certainly no truth could be worse than the stories to which they were subjected. Now they have special cause to rejoice, for on April 20, 1961, the First Presidency and the Council of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints met in joint council, and: 'It was the action of the Council after considering all the facts available that authorization be given for the reinstatement to membership and former blessings [temple marriages] to John D. Lee.' Word of this was sent out to members of the family, and on May 8 and 9, the necessary ordinances were performed in the Salt Lake Temple. A complete record is in the files of the Latter-day Saints Genealogical Society." (Mountain Meadows Massacre, p. 223)

It's hard to understand this reinstating of John D. Lee's complete blessings, when Joseph Smith and Mormon doctrine clearly teaches that Murder is unforgivable, let alone MASS MURDER. Gee, I wonder how they explain this?

I beg all TBMS and Mormon Apologists, to enlighten all of us evil ex-Mormons, as to how this can be. Doesn't this contradict your beloved Joseph Smith and his teachings?

Joseph Smith supposedly received the following revelation from Jesus Christ:


27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

To further support what was recorded in the D&C, Joseph Smith also clearly taught that murderers cannot have eternal life, cannot be saved, cannot be baptized for the remission of sins and that they will all literally go to hell, which must be outer darkness, since hell is not a Mormon glory.

Joseph Smith said:

“A murderer for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness.” (Teachings Of The Prophet Joseph Smith-Page 339)

I also hope that since, Dallin H. Oaks and the Mormon Hierarchy, have now finally admitted that “Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing”, that this will free up the families of those who were brutally executed that day at Mountain Meadows, to finally be able to file a class action lawsuit against the Mormon church and the current Hierarchy.

This statement by Dallin H. Oaks, admitting fault, also contradicts Hinckley, who said the following on Sept 11, 1999:

"No one can explain what happened in these meadows 142 years ago. We may speculate, but we do not know. We do not understand it. We cannot comprehend it. We can only say that the past is long since gone."


"That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day."

It looks like Hinckley, the current Mormon Prophet and Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle, need to have a private meeting and discuss the descrpencies that exist their public statements.

Also, based on the other comment by Dallin H. Oaks, which I just posted the other day, clearly stating that, “It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true”, this means that even though he has now admitted that church leaders "were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing” of around 120 innocent men, women and children; you cannot criticize them for it and in fact, he probably wants you to follow his lead and pray that they will all be forgiven, just like they’ve forgiven John D. Lee.

Samuel the Utahnite

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At Friday, June 15, 2007 7:00:00 AM, Anonymous Paula said...

Well, I'm not going to make any excuses for the church or the leaders here. Just a comment about John D. Lee. He was killed by a firing squad, in other words, blood atonement. The Lee family, and Juanita Brooks led the charge to get Lee's blessings restored, because they felt that he was certainly not the only one guilty and because he was probably acting on someone else's orders. Church Leaders at the time that his temple blessings were restored didn't want the restoration publicized because they felt it was an admission of guilt at higher levels, and they threatened to revoke the restoration if Brooks published it in her second edition of MMM. ( A posthumous excommunication?) This is from a recent quick skimming of Levi Peterson's book about Juanita, when I was looking for the answer to another question.

At Friday, June 15, 2007 8:02:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Thanks Paula for your comment and yeah, you're absolutely right about the blood atonement angle, which is why Utah was the only state in the USA, that was still actively using the firing squad as punishment for death, up until March 15, 2004.

Of course it goes back to Brigham Young and blood atonement, as do many things in Utah, unfortunately.

I also agree that John D. Lee was obviously not the only man that was guilty, as well over one hundred Mormons and Mormon leaders participated in the mass murder.

However, that does not justify what John D. Lee himself did? Does that let him off the hook? Just because all these other men were never held accountable, doesn't justify or release John D. Lee from being guilty of mass murder.

I also don't give a shit if he was told directly by Brigham Young or the Mormon Holy Ghost(like Nephi) to do it, as that doesn't justify it either. If Brigham Young had told him to do it with a gun to his head, he still shouldn't have done it.

It reminds me of Tal Bachman in "The Mormons", saying:

"I mean, I was completely into it. I mean, I was so completely wound up that, I mean, if my mission president had asked me to blow myself up like a suicide bomber, I would have said, 'Sure. Where should I go?'"

I find that pathetic, I really do and if he had actually done that, it would have been his fault for the mass murder he'd committed, as well as the person that commanded him and brainwashed him to do it.

I've never personally known anyone in my life or on my mission that would have done what Tal said he would have gladly done. Hopefully he was just being over the top and trying to get some shock value, but all we can do is take him at his word.

If what he said is true, then he would have been no better than John D. Lee or any of the other mass murderers that killed all of those innocent, unarmed men, women and children and thank the Mormon God he didn't live in Brigham Young's day, or he would have been a mass murderer for sure.

But if he had done something like that, I would have no mercy for him or the man commanding it, just like I have no mercy or compassion for John D. Lee(or any of the other men), no matter who ordered him to commit mass murder.

I can certainly see why the Mormon Hierarchy didn't want it to get out though, that they'd restored all of the temple blessings to John D. Lee, a mass murderer from the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It's highly embarrassing and downright disgusting that they would do that.

They excommunicate someone for apostasy or minor things(sins), while restoring John D. Lee's blessings completely and he just happens to be a mass fruits of Mormonism for all the world to see once again.

I also find it amazing that they threated to revoke the restoration of his blessings if brooks published it in her book.

First of all, why would they re-punish the person that they'd forgiven, who is dead, because of the actions of somebody else, that the dead person has nothing to do with. Typical Mormon bullshit and threat and fears. Did they revoke the restoration of John D. Lee's blessings?

Secondly, if they want to order some "posthumous excommunications", they should start with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and then just keep on rolling through most of the Prophets and Apostles, ending with the excommunication of Hinckley for apostasy, for repeatedly lying to the world about what his church believes and teaches as doctrine.

Thanks for the great info, don't be a stranger and let us know if you dig anything else up that is interesting or that we should all know about.

The movie "SEPTEMBER DAWN" comes out in one week everyone, on June 22, so go see this movie, as it sounds like it will be a VERY ACCURATE account of what really went down and they used the exact transcripts and journals, etc.

Take care everyone,


At Friday, June 15, 2007 9:24:00 AM, Blogger Demon of Kolob said...

September Dawn has been postponed again this time to some date in August.

At Friday, June 15, 2007 9:34:00 AM, Blogger Demon of Kolob said...

In the quotes from the D&C it always said Innocent Blood this is the out for the Mormon Leaders to kill, since they decide who is Innocent blood and who is not. If the early leaders were held accountable for killing none of them would get into heaven. That's why it was OK for Nephi to kill Laban, Brigham Blood Atonements, Mormons to shoot Missourian's etc. Those babies whose heads were smashed in at MMM were evil in embryo. The justification of these atrocities make me want to vomit.

At Friday, June 15, 2007 9:55:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Thanks for the comments Demon....but WTF with postponing "September Dawn" again?!! That pisses me off, because I'd already made plans to go see it on the 22nd and I was really looking forward to it, as I'm sure many of us were.

Is the Mormon Hierarchy coming down on them, threatening and bullying them with Jesus' personal lawyers? Something is going on here and I think it's more than just trying to build up an audience or anticipation. Continually postponing a movie after releasing the "official" release date is just not good business and not a good sign.

I sincerely hope that they aren't having to go back in and re-edit the film, in order to appease Hinckley Inc and all of his asshole cronies, who are shitting their holy garments over this movie.

But hey, thanks for the update Demon, as I hadn't heard anything about this 2nd postponement, until I read your comment this morning.


At Saturday, June 16, 2007 7:39:00 AM, Blogger Al Jordan said...

I think it's a safe bet that September Dawn, if it ever sees theatrical release, will NOT be shown at any theatres owned and operated by that crybaby Larry H. Miller.

Oh, and I don't think any babies were killed at MMM...from what I understand, they allowed all children under the age of 8 to live and be adopted into mormon families.

At Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:55:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Yeah, at this point I'm doubting that it will ever be released, if the Mormon Hierarchy get their way and threaten enough lawsuits. Eventually, it will be released somehow, someway, even if it's by bit torrent on the Internet.

Eventually, this movie will get out(hopefully to the big screen) and in all reality, the damage is already done and the truth is now out there, especially with Oaks' admission of guilt.

Also, there were indeed babies and children killed at Mountain Meadows, because their bones were found and dug up by the Hierarchy when they were putting up their so called monument.

The common case for these deaths, was the mother clutching her baby or child, trying to protect them and then the bullets going through both of them and killing them both.

Some of the kids were also caught in the crossfire and some of them that lived, had their arms shot off by bullets.

They did round up all the kids and put them in a wagon, but killed any that were over the age of 8, since they were least one of them was killed after the murders were over. They found out she was 11 and they had her get out of the wagon and then shot her point blank in the head, in front of the other children.

Then of course, they left the dead bodies laying their to rot and be eaten by the wolves, which is exactly what happened. What a Mormon legacy eh?

I just hope that "September Dawn" will be released in August, which is the 3rd date now they've announced. I know that a lot of this has to do with Mitt Romney and his Presidential campaign and I'm sure with his $500 million and the Mormon cults(corporation of the President) billions, they can keep the pressure on and threaten lawsuit after lawsuit, which I'm sure they're doing.

Gee, maybe they are threatening some "BLOOD ATONEMENT" on the writers, directors, actors and publisher of the film...would anyone be surprised if they were?

Thanks for your comment Al Jordan and I guess we'll see what happens in August.

Samuel the Utahnite

At Monday, June 18, 2007 1:53:00 PM, Blogger Demon of Kolob said...

Mormon church, foundation at odds over Mountain Meadows monument
The Associated Press
Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated:06/18/2007 12:30:51 PM MDT

Posted: 12:32 PM- Descendants of a 120-member Arkansas Mormon pioneers say their plea for federal stewardship of the Mountain Meadows mass grave site has been rejected by LDS Church.
Phil Bolinger and Scott Fancher of the Arkansas-based Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation say they got the news June 6 in a telephone call from Elder Marlin Jensen, who oversees the church history department.
"He told us that President (Gordon B.) Hinckley had turned us down. He doesn't think it's in the best interests of the church to allow federal stewardship in the meadows," said Bolinger, the foundation president who is related to 30 of those killed. "That really bit me bad."
Jensen declined an interview, but confirmed through spokeswoman Kim Farah that the church will not pursue federal stewardship of the site. A similar request was also rejected in 1999.
Descendants want the site in the hands of a neutral third party because they believe the institutional church is complicit in the murders.
"It's not right for the people who had complicity to the killings to be the grave owner," said Bolinger, who discussed the issue with Jensen on April 25 in Salt Lake City.
"I asked him, 'How you do you think the Kennedy family would feel if the Lee Harvey Oswald family had control of the Kennedy tomb?'"
History hangs the Sept. 11, 1857, event on southern Utah Mormon leaders and a small band of Paiute Indians, leaving the culpability of then-church president Brigham Young up for debate. An upcoming book from church historians takes the same position.
Headed to California, the wagon train led by Capt. Alexander Fancher and John Baker arrived in the Utah territory at the same time the federal government was mounting pressure on the Mormon church for its practice of polygamy and disregard for federal oversight.
They camped first near Salt Lake City and then headed south to the meadow, a well-known stopover on the old Spanish Trail. The immigrants were attacked and spent a week engaged in gun skirmishes before local Mormon Elder John D. Lee rode in on horseback with a white flag to negotiate their rescue.
Persuaded to walk single-file and unarmed from the valley, the immigrants were shot at close range, stabbed or beaten to death. Their bodies were not buried.
Seventeen children were spared, all of them under age six _ young enough, some said, not to remember or speak of what they saw. The youngsters were adopted by local families and later returned to their relatives in Arkansas.
Lee was tried, convicted and executed for the massacre 20 years later and is the only person ever held responsible.
Today, the Mountain Meadows monument site is a 2,500-acre parcel in a rolling scrub-pine and sagebrush valley about 35 miles northwest of St. George.
The land is a patchwork of public and private holdings, some of which was passed down through families from pioneer ancestors.
There are four known mass grave sites and two memorials _ the rock pyramid known as the Carelton Cairn on the valley floor and a memorial wall on Dan Sill Hill, which overlooks the valley and is inscribed with the known names of victims from the 29 different families on the wagon train.
The monument is already on the National Park Service's Register of Historic Places, but the designation doesn't guarantee public access or public input before construction or other site changes, foundation attorney Scott Fancher said.
Foundation members believe a higher designation, such as national monument status, would better protect the interests of all and salve the wounds of many Fancher party descendants, said Bolinger, of Hindsville, Ark.
"Federal stewardship of this grave site ... that's all it would take to put this to bed," he said.
Federal oversight might also have prevented the Aug. 3, 1999, maintenance work on the cairn when a church crew accidentally unearthed the remains of at least 28 men, women and children. A forensic evaluation was begun, but cut short on an order from Utah's then-Gov. Mike Leavitt, a descendant of some who participated in the massacre.
At a dedication ceremony of the rebuilt cairn that September, Hinckley said the church carries a moral responsibility to remember the victims, but fell short of acknowledging church complicity to the crime.
Mormon church leaders are committed to appropriately preserving the Mountain Meadows site, Farah said.
"The church has owned the monument site at Mountain Meadows for many years. The property is open to the public and considerable time and resources are allocated to ensure that the property is well-maintained, open to the public and that those who perished there are appropriately remembered," she said.
Farah also confirmed what Washington County recorder's office records show - over the past few months, the church has increased its holdings in the meadow. Since March at least two families have deeded their property over to the church.
"The church intends to administer and maintain this property in like manner, thereby preserving it from either residential or commercial development," said Farah.
Bolinger said the foundation, one of three descendant groups, shared concerns that residential development in fast-growing Washington County would damage the site. But he's rankled by the church's acquisition of more land and says he'll continue to push for federal stewardship.
"It's the highest honor we could pay these people," Bolinger said.

At Monday, June 18, 2007 2:04:00 PM, Blogger Demon of Kolob said...

Several Babies were killed with thier mothers at MMM. We know this because of the bones unearthed while building the new monument in 1999. See the documentary "Burying the Past"


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