Tuesday, September 26, 2006

I Just wanted To Remind Everyone Of The Exact Words Of The Manhattan, Mormon Stake President Brent Belnap, When He Called Mormonism an "Alternative!!"

Hey guys, with the Mormon General Conference coming up, I felt the need to refresh everyone's mind regarding what Brent Belnap(the Mormon Stake President of Manhattan, New York), said to Matt Lauer on The Today Show in November of 2005.

Here is the question and response:

Matt Lauer, Today Show Anchor: "Are you saying it's the only path to God and Salvation or are you presenting it as an alternative?

Brent Belnap, LDS Stake President, Manhattan: I think it's more as an alternative......

Mormonism is presented as an alternative religion......Ha Ha Ha...yeah right!! Brent Belnap and the Mormon Hierarchy are bold faced liars and they know it. Any former Mormon missionaries out there, that taught Mormonism as an alternative on your mission? If that was the case, what would be the point, right?

The first video is the full, complete clip of the interview and the 2nd one is a re-mix of the first clip that I created, co-starring Gordon B. Hinckley, the Mormon cult Prophet of fraud. I just don't want anyone to forget how they lie publicly and blatantly, to further their cause of converting people into the cult.

I'm going to watch this Mormon General Conference very carefully, to see if Hinckley and gang present Mormonism as just some alternative or option...LOL!! Yeah right!!

Feel free to leave comments here or over on Youtube, as the Brent Belnap interview clip already has over 100 comments.

Enjoy everyone!!

Direct Link at YouTube or just double click the above video

Direct Link

For those that want to know more about this subject and my opinion on the matter, I dedicated an entire podcast to Brent Belnap's lies.

Take care everyone and I'm back on course now, with a lot of great stuff on the way. Thanks for your patience!! Thanks everyone for your amazing support and donations!!

Samuel the Utahnite

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At Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:34:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Samuel,you are so right. Every doggone day on my mission to Scotland I shoved Mormonism as the only way whatsoever to get back to the Mormon God. They had to renounce their religon ENTIRELY and be baptized into the Mormon faith if they wanted to truly be saved. It was black and white, one or the other. We had to memorize scriptures that expounded on the whole "narrow is the way back to god, and few there be that find it" yadda, yadda, yadda. What these me are saying are indeed lies. We didn't spend over 11,000 USD out of our own pockets to go preach an alternative, it was the ONLY way to be saved, period. I never would have wasted my time if I felt is was just something nice to add to your current religion. I really though I was saving people from an eternity of unhappiness. Obviously I certainly don't feel that way now, but at the time, I really believed that I was giving a service to mankind.

This is really sad. Sad that the members don't see through this, sad that missionaries currently serving are having to bend their already exhausted minds around this and sad that we were all lied to and our experience and sacrifice has been flushed down the toilet!




At Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:28:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...


How right you are!! Yeah, we just went out there, gave 2 years of our life, paid around $11,000 +, just to try to "add" to what they already had and preach an "alternative" religion, which means it's optional and not necessary.

I never knew anyone on my mission, that just kept going to their Catholic Church, along with their new Mormon Church? Did any of you former Mormon missionaries ever see this? I know that I was never taught to teach them that they were now both Mormon and Catholic, or Mormon and whatever religion they were before(Argentina is like 99% Catholic).

Like Lori said, we went out to teach them about "the one and only true and living church on earth." There was no alternative about anything we taught or did, you can trust me on that one.

We just went out there, worked 80+ hours a week, got trashed regularly by our "inspired" leaders for more NUMBERS, got deathly sick, puked our guts out, froze in the winter and fried in the summer, almost got killed in some instances(as many have been killed in the last year), just to be able to preach Mormonism as "an alternative?!!" What a bunch of bullshit!! The lying never stops, does it?

If it really is an option, not necessary and just "an alternative", then why even bother. I wish that all members would wake up and realize that this is what the Mormon Hierarchy believe now, since they condoned this interview and never corrected it.

Calling Mormonism "an alternative", makes everything in it "an alternative." Let's see; tithing, the law of chastity, garments(both buying and wearing), banning of R-rated movies, women not being able to wear 2+ earrings in each ear, the banning of tattoos, the banning of short skirts or sleeveless dresses and blouses for women.

Also, not being able to marry interracially, only being able to date other Mormons, having to bother the hell out of your friends and family, "in all places at all times", to be a member missionary trying to jam your beliefs down their throats, even at work. I mean if it's an alternative and somebody else is already happy with their life and beliefs, why would they need the "Mormon alternative", right?

Let's see, what else? Oh yeah, you don't have to tie up 3 hours every Sunday, plus other hours during the week messing with the "Mormon alternative." You don't have to feel guilty watching football or other TV shows on Sunday(The Lord's holy day).

Well, it's okay I guess if you watch KSL on Sunday, since it's owned by Jesus Christ. I think it's cool that Jesus Christ himself, on his personal TV station, shows Sunday Night Football now...isn't that awesome?!!

I always knew Jesus was a huge football fan, especially on Sunday. What's even cooler is that KSL(Jesus' personal channel) does a special post-game show after the game now too and then later, they do the BYU Football coaches show.

Wow, they have the BYU football coach, who lives in Provo, leave his family on Sunday night, drive about 80-90 miles round trip to Salt Lake, to do a show about BYU football? Are you serious? Is that Christian? Is that "keeping the Sabbath day holy?" Oh yeah, it's on Jesus' TV station, so it has to be okay, right? Hypocrites!!

But I thought that members aren't supposed to be watching "any" TV on Sunday, especially news or shows about football, right? Oh, I guess they are just trying to cater to the non-Mormons, who probably aren't watching KSL anyway and for that matter, aren't BYU football fans either. I guess they produce a show that NOBODY is watching then, right? I guess Jesus needs to get his stuff together, doesn't he?

I digress...where was I? Oh yeah, things that Mormons no longer have to worry about since it's all just one big "alternative"; well, we don't have to worry about following any "book of Mormon challenges" by the "alternative Prophet", Gordon B. Hinckley. We don't have to worry about trying to pay our tithing in order to pass any interviews with the Bishop or Stake President to get an "optional", "alternative" temple recommend.

We don't have to worry about confessing our sins of omission and commission, to some other guy, who has no authority over us and who receives ZERO inspiration from God for us.

Also, a huge thing is that we no longer have to worry about getting married in the Mormon temple, without our non-Mormon friends and family. That should make a lot of people happy.

It's also cool that we don't have to worry about our kids going on a Mormon cult mission someday. We don't have to worry about them getting abused by their leaders or almost dying of food poisoning or getting killed by gangsters or terrorists, because they are knocking doors in the worst part of town in some of the most dangerous countries on planet earth.

The list goes on and on and I'm sure that you guys will be able to keep adding to this "list of things people don't need to worry about, because Mormonism is just 'an alternative.'"

In fact, maybe when we have it all done, we can make it into a post for everyone to read.

Anyway, take care guys, I'm glad that you liked this post Lori and I hope we get a lot of response, even from the likes of Mckay or 123, because I'd like to see what they think of these comments.

Over on Youtube, I've been debating some TBM, Apologist clown, that says that Brent Belnap was just nervous, or didn't understand the question, or this, or that, but he most certainly didn't lie...oh, okay dude....wink...wink!! Yeah, this guy also thinks I should start running over and killing puppies in my neighborhood.

He's actually had a complete meltdown at this point, because he can't answer any of my questions, despite his brilliance and is now back to the whole "it's all about feelings" BS. I've invited him over here to Mormon Truth for a good, no censorship debate or to at least debate me through Email and he refuses to do so.

The funniest part about this Brian Anderson clown, is that he claims to have a "M.S. degree" in Physics and is about to get his PHD. I guess that doesn't say much for people with high degrees, and it certainly doesn't mean that they have any common sense or logical thinking ability, does it?

So, Despite the exact words of Brent Belnap, he will claim for the rest of his life, along with many others, that President Belnap did not lie and isn't even capable of doing such a dastardly deed. Remember now, God won't allow these men to ever lead the world astray, including Brent Belnap, because it's not in the program and God would remove them if they even tried!! Amazing, isn't it?

Talk to you all soon and I look forward to your comments. We should have some new folks joining us in the very near future, as I've been getting a lot of Emails from new readers and listeners, that love "Mormon Truth" and what we all have to say.


At Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:25:00 PM, Anonymous Cernovog said...

I have a few questions Samuel.

You mentioned inter-racial marriage. I know in the past that this practice was condemned by the Mormon church. It was considered a capital crime! However, is it still discouraged today?

Another question, this is the first time I've heard of "no TV on Sunday". Is that considered a commandment? Is it in the D&C? Or is it a suggestion?

This week, one of the missionaries told me that "no alcohol" was a commandment, but "no caffeine" was a suggestion and, on rare occasions, he'll imbibe caffeinated drinks.

Finally, how the heck do you debate on YouTube when you're limited to 500 characters/line???? Especially, YOU???

At Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:08:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Interracial marriage is allowed but still discouraged today. In the Brigham Young days, I believe his beef was with black and white only. I could be wrong about that. I've never heard any quotes that made me think he was prejudice against all non-whites. But then, you never know with him. The church hiarchy is mostly whites.

Sunday is a day reserved for God; therefore, anything that is not church or service related should not be done. This comes from the fourth commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Many activites are discouraged on Sunday: TV, shopping, working. Basically, you're supposed to spend the day doing church stuff and family stuff. Some Mormons won't even do family stuff because it could possibly not be reverent (swimming, hiking, camping, basically anything physical). It's been a long time since I had a temple recommend interview. Does anyone remember if they ask you if you keep the Sabbath Day holy? But it is a pretty serious thing. It is definitely more than a suggestion but I'm not sure if it is used to determine your "worthiness". I definitely know it is the subject of many a sacrament meeting.

No alcohol is a commandment in the Word of Wisdom. I have never heard it officially said anywhere not to use caffeine. The Word of Wisdom says no "hot drinks" and yet Mormons serve up hot chocolate all the time! I have always limited my caffeine use for personal reasons but have never felt guilty for it. The only thing you are asked in interviews is if you obey the Word of Wisdom.

One time on my mission we went to a ward service project and the place we went served treats and Pepsi. Most of the missionaries had some. One lady in the ward really freaked out about it, so I guess the caffeine issue is a personal one.

I suppose it could be possible that Brent Belnap misunderstood the question. But it sure doesn't look or sound like he misunderstood. And if he misspoke, where is the churches official correction? I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

Hmmm, what else could be considered an alternative activity? HOMETEACHING!!! How many EQ meetings did I sit through where they preached it endlessly, trying to manipulate (with fear) everyone into doing it. Here's my two cents about HT: I don't want to be an assigned friend and I don't want a friend assigned to me. I want a friend who is a real friend. I would rather have no friend than an assigned friend.

If Mormonism was an alternative, it wouldn't have 101 commandments which if you fail to completely obey, you will lose your soul forever (no pun intended). Any RMs remember the little white rule book that you were always supposed to carry around with you everywhere on your mission (usually it went in your shirt pocket right behind your name tag)? One of the first pages of that little book actually said that failure to comply with all the mission rules could put your eternal salvation in jeopardy. That sure doesn't sound like an alternative.

At Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:38:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Cernovog, thanks for the questions and it looks like Ray already pretty much answered them, but I'll just put in my 666 cents, if that's okay? LOL!!

You asked:

Finally, how the heck do you debate on YouTube when you're limited to 500 characters/line???? Especially, YOU???

Well, I had a pretty good laugh over that question, because, EXACTLY, how does one debate on YouTube, especially ME. That is exactly and precisely why I keep inviting these Mormon Apologist clowns over to Mormon Truth, or to Email me, but they aren't interested and just keep leaving their 500 or less character responses.

Now, I could maybe handle the 500 characters, but then on top of that, you can only leave 3 responses before being cut off and having to wait around another 20 minutes or so, which drives me insane. Oh well, maybe they'll grow some cojones and actually come over here someday, but I doubt it.

Now before I say anything else Cernovog, I just wanted to point out that I know you admittedly don't really like my site at all and consider my site to be "Anti-Mormon", as do I, as I have no problem with the term, because I am indeed, very strongly against Mormonism.

I can pretend all day long that I'm not an anti-Mormon, but I am, and I will be labeled anti-Mormon no matter what I say and what's wrong with that anyway? I don't condemn the average, good members, just the cult Hierarchy. If people don't want to understand that, then my site isn't for them anyway, and that's just fine.

But I just wanted to point out that 99% of the sources I'm using, are the very things that you say you use, namely all Mormon approved books, teachings and doctrines.

I'm very proud and I feel very safe in saying that there are no other "blogs" like mine, that include so many facts, links and opinions, about so many subjects and I've only just begun. I'm nearing 200 posts now, not to mention my 25 podcasts and those blogs and I haven't hardly written any new posts for months due to time constraints and family activities over the summer months.

Thankfully, there are now other blogs that are similar to mine and growing and I hope that continues forever, as we need more people doing what I do. Many great blogs, that were started over the last year, were stopped, deleted and don't even exist now. I have put a massive amount of my personal time, over the last year, into this blog, as you can probably tell and I'm proud of what I've created and it has helped a ton of people, starting with myself.

This blog has been a place for me(and now all of you, since I opened up the comments a few months ago), to freely express myself and share my pain, my anger and my frustrations, along with the reasons why, while at the same time, showing everyone what it is that I've discovered and why it shows that Mormonism is a fraudulent cult, led by corrupt corporate men, that have nothing to do with any God, except the God of $$$$!!

This blog will continue to grow for as long as I'm on this earth and hopefully long after I'm gone, until Christ does or doesn't come or at least until the world just blows up or implodes or someone decides to nuke it out of existence. As long as there is an Internet and an earth, this blog, and all my blogs and podcasts will live on forever and I'm glad to know that.

In fact, I've prided myself on my accuracy and being able to back up everything I'm saying or quoting, that my posts have said. I believe that's the reason so many people like to come here, for the accuracy of what I say and the links, to basically every single thing I say, that is able to be linked to. People can verify what I'm saying and not have to go do the research that I've already done, just to find the link.

Now my opinions are mine and nobody else's, but those opinions of mine are based on the facts and I feel very secure in them and in espousing them. I think the accuracy of what I say, link to and express as my opinion based on these facts, is another reason that none of these TBM apologists want any part of debating me, coming on my podcast, etc.

I am, as you all know, a very passionate person, especially on this subject of Mormonism and that passion either turns people on or off to my blog and podcasts. Do I care if people are turned off by "who I am?" No I don't care, because I'm just gonna be me and if they don't like it, then scram, get lost and good luck elsewhere!!

If they want to stick around and be an ass, they'll get treated like an ass in return. I respect those that respect me, but I have zero respect for those that don't respect me or you guys out there, just doing the best you can.

Now, some accuse me of arrogance and acting like "I know it all", etc, but let me tell you guys something and I hope you are all the same way; when you've done literally thousands of hours of research, have read and verified exact quotes, and indeed do know EXACTLY what you are talking about; and then someone says you are a liar, a Son of Perdition and any other derogatory term you can imagine.....yeah, I get extra pissed off because they are ignoramuses and then calling me dumb and stupid.

Those people don't deserve my respect and will never get it when they behave in that manner. When they grow up and want to have a civilized conversation, then they can return and we'll start over.

Jared from the podcast interview I did, was a great example of a mature TBM, that could actually respect me and in turn, got my respect. Did we disagree on about every single subject? You bet!! But did it have to get ugly in the process? No, it didn't.

Like I said, if you are gonna be an ass, then I'll treat you like one, plain and simple. I was taught growing up to always defend myself and not start fights, but that if someone starts it, that I should finish it and that's what I do.

The TBM Apologists know and I know, that I would flat out embarrass the hell out of them with my accuracy and facts. That's another reason why I applaud Jard, for having done that podcast with Eric and I, because he is the only one that has had the courage to do so. I went pretty easy on him, because number 1, he's a good guy and a nice guy and was respectful to me.

Also, with Eric's agenda of trying to prove that he had the only truth on the planet(which I wasn't aware of until we did the podcast and I listened to it later), I wasn't able to ask 10% of what I wanted to ask him. Also, it was not my podcast specifically, as I was only invited to "participate."

Now I realize that I was invited, because Eric didn't have a clue about the deep issues of Mormonism and needed someone that did, because Jared would have annihilated him and it would have been ugly.

So, anyway, if I can't link to something, I at least post where it came from. I hate posting things when I can't say where it comes from and I'll spend hours looking and researching, just to find one source.

Now, after finally learning about how to do the video clips, I'm going to take things to a whole new level and show video and audio clips whenever possible, to help it sink in better and be a better overall experience for all who are watching and listening. I believe the visual aspect is extremely important, to go with the audio, like I said, whenever I can find the actual video.

When I was a regular poster over on RFM, I used to help people all the time, as I literally have thousands of Mormon links now, in my favorites, after literally thousands of hours of research.

I point out how much time I've put into this, to show you guys that I've taken this very seriously, from day one and I'm very concerned about accuracy in what I report, as I've had a life changing experience, that has been tremendously painful and I only want to help others deal with their pain and provide them with the truth.

I've basically dedicate my life, over the last year or so, to helping others and myself, through my blogs and podcasts and it has been a very rewarding experience and I couldn't do it without all of you out there and you know who you are.

According to Grant Palmer, I believe he said that around 125,000 people or so resigned over the last year. That is a lot of people and a lot of pain and these folks need help from all of us in the ex-Mormon community, to know that they aren't alone.

I do not, EVER, want to lie or share things that aren't true, because there is no need whatsoever to do that, when so much of the most damning information, comes from their very own words and books. It's like shooting ducks, so why would anyone feel the need to make stuff up, right? Too bad Ed Decker didn't stick to that philosophy, as he ruined his credibility completely with his stupid movies, mixing truth and lies.

Anyway, I hope that helps and maybe you just haven't been around long enough, or been able to read enough of my posts, to realize just how thorough my blog is, as far as links and supportive source listings. Most TBM die-hards, won't even check my sources out of pure fear that I'm right and just write me off as a lying anti-Mormon. ====================

Now, onto the good stuff, which Ray covered pretty well. Let me first start with the interracial marriage issue. The Mormon Hierarchy, in my opinion, still opposes interracial marriages of any kind and I can fully back up what I just said.

Let me first state that it is my opinion, that any statement made, in an official talk or situation, by an Apostle or Prophet of the Mormon Church, even a Seventy, is scripture. Now, the Church has an errors in the media page that they use to correct anything that is ever wrong and they never correct themselves because they don't make any errors. It's the whole, "God can't lead us astray" BS.

So, with that being said, if a Mormon Apostle came out and openly said that there should be no interracial marriage, it is law and it is doctrine. It has to be and that is exactly what Boyd K. Packer said, in a speech he gave at BYU-Hawaii in 1977.

I wrote an entire post on this and I'm proud to say, I was the first person on the entire Internet, or anywhere else that I'm aware of, to find this talk and then blog about it or even discuss it.

I was shocked that it had stayed hidden, under wraps for so long, but glad as hell that I'd found it and exposed it to the world. Of course, it just added to the racist history of Mormonism, once again.

Amazing what you find in thousands of hours of study, isn't it? Especially when you are searching through a closet full of skeletons that reach 100 miles and 186 years deep.

But, for those that don't want to go to that page on my blog, allow me to share the highlights of the talk and then you can all decide if the Mormon Hierarchy has taught that Interracial marriages shouldn't happen, unless you are a Mormon GA of course.(They are always the exception to every rule.)

Here is a direct link to "Follow The Rule, by Boyd K. Packer given on January 14, 1977.

Boyd K. Packer says:

"Now, one other subject. It's been the policy of the Church--and it's been spoken on many occasions--that as the gathering of Israel is in Mexico for the Mexicans, in Tonga for the Tongans, in China for the Chinese, and so on, so has been our counsel as it relates to marriage."

"We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, "Well, I know of exceptions." I do, too, and they've been very successful marriages. I know some of them. You might even say, "I can show you local Church leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their race." I say, "Yes--exceptions." Then I would remind you of that Relief Society woman's near-scriptural statement, 'We'd like to follow the rule first, and then we'll take care of the exceptions.'"

"For every exception we can show you tens and hundreds, and I suppose thousands, who were not happy. Plan, young people, to marry into your own race. This counsel is good, and I hope our branch presidents are listening and paying attention. The counsel is good."

"Things are not always easy when we receive counsel, whether the counsel is to return to serve among our own people or whether it is counsel to marry among our own culture and racial backgrounds. Always there is a decision. Always we can say, "We're an exception." But I say, in the words of that Relief Society sister, 'As for me, I'm going to follow the rule first; and then, should there be an exception, perhaps that will be made known.'"

I think it's pretty clear where he and the Mormon Hierarchy stand on this issue and he does say, word for word, "We've always counseled in the Church...." and "It's been the policy of the Church--and it's been spoken on many occasions--...so has been our counsel as it relates to marriage."

Also, the "Plan, young people, to marry into your own race. This counsel is good, and I hope our branch presidents are listening and paying attention. The counsel is good", is a pretty powerful statement that means exactly what it says, is straightforward and cannot be confused with any other meaning or interpretation.

If anyone wants to read more of my opinion regarding this issue, just read that post I just linked to and you'll have plenty to read. Feel free to leave a comment there to, if you want to. To me this is a huge issue.

I will also say that Boyd K. Packer was basically repeating, almost word for word, the words that Mormon Prophet Spencer W. Kimball had spoken regarding the issue.

Here are some more quotes that seem pretty ironic, compared to what we just read above, by Boyd K. Packer and the absolutely horrific racist teachings in Mormon history, dating all the way back to Joseph Smith:

Elder Russell M. Nelson Conference Report, April 1994 “Teach Us Tolerance and Love”

"It is morally wrong for any person or group to deny anyone his or her inalienable dignity on the tragic and abhorrent theory of racial or cultural superiority."

President Gordon B. Hinckley Conference Report, April 1995 This Is the Work of the Master

"I plead with our people everywhere to live with respect and appreciation for those not of our faith. There is so great a need for civility and mutual respect among those of differing beliefs and philosophies. We must not be partisans of any doctrine of ethnic superiority. We live in a world of diversity. We can and must be respectful toward those with whose teachings we may not agree. We must be willing to defend the rights of others who may become the victims of bigotry.

...We have nothing to fear. God is at the helm. He will overrule for the good of this work. He will shower down blessings upon those who walk in obedience to His commandments. Such has been His promise. Of His ability to keep that promise none of us can doubt..."

And then we have Spencer W. Kimball saying the following:

Elder Spencer W. Kimball Unpublished Letter, circa 1960's

"Long and wide experience has seemed to indicate that interracial marriages bring [many] problems. This, of course, is not a matter of inferiority and superiority; it is a matter of backgrounds and acceptance. It may well be that in many instances the minority member may be superior to the Anglo member. We regret exceedingly that there are many members of the Church who do have racial prejudices, and for this we are unhappy, but we deal with human beings and we cannot seem to totally control their thinking and their feeling. When all is [considered,] it seems wise to counsel our Japanese youth, or Chinese youth, or Maori youth, or Mexican youth, or Indian youth as well as all others to marry within their race for their own greater happiness."

Now, here is a link, to a BYU-Hawaii website, with these quotes. The first 2, you can find on LDS.org, quite easily, but that Kimball quote is much harder to track down, thus I'm providing the link.

Now, at the bottom of the page, it states:

This essay is published as a support for and an extension of classroom discussion and in no way represents an official statement from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its General Authorities. Dr. Marcus H. Martins assumes full responsibility for the opinions, views, and interpretations contained herein. For more information contact me at: MartinsM@byuh.edu

Now, here is a better quote by President Kimball, right out of "The Teachings Of President Kimball", which is still for sale at Jesus' personal bookstore, which is, I might add, the "one and only true and living bookstore on the planet earth(according to the Mormons--LOL!!)

Spencer W. Kimball:

Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn’t a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08)

The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor’s degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages.

When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.

If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking.

We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.
(0/0/59) (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 303.)

Cernovog said:

I know in the past that this practice was condemned by the Mormon church. It was considered a capital crime! However, is it still discouraged today?

Yes it was a capital crime and I'm sure you are referring to the Brigham Young quote:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race?

If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

Now, the Mormon Hierarchy still sell these Journal of Discourse books, that include this quote, right in Jesus' bookstore. They have never apologized for this quote(or any of the many other racist quotes), have never repudiated this quote and most likely never will. They are a disgrace!!

And they really wonder where the bigotry and racism comes from? All they need to do is look into the mirror and their history and they'll have their answer. I know that was a lot of information, but I hope that it helped give you some more insight into whether or not Mormonism is against interracial marriage. Those are the facts, you decide...LOL!! ===================

You asked:

Another question, this is the first time I've heard of "no TV on Sunday". Is that considered a commandment? Is it in the D&C? Or is it a suggestion?

Well, I would say that it is a commandment or at least they make you feel like shit if you even dare watch TV, which doesn't explain KSL(Jesus' channel) now, does it?

Anyway, here is a list of the temple recommend questions and you tell me, if it's required or not. I think several of the questions would certainly include it, especially the "catch-all" final question:

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

4. Do you live the law of chastity?

5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

9. Are you a full-tithe payer?

10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

11. Have you ever been divorced or are you now separated from your spouse under order of a civil court? If yes, (a) - Are you current in your support payments and other financial obligations for family members, as specified by court order or in other written, binding commitments? (b) Were there any circumstances of transgression in connection with your divorce or separation that have not been previously resolved with your bishop?

12. If you have received your temple endowment -- (a) Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple? (b) Do you wear the authorized garments both day and night?

13. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

14. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

In each interview, emphasize to the applicant the need to safeguard the recommend. It must never be loaned and should be reported immediately to the issuer if lost or stolen. (See "Lost, Stolen, or Revoked Recommends" on the preceding page.)

OLD Questions 11 & 12 (replaced by 11a & 11b)

11. Have you ever had a divorce that has not been cleared by appropriate priesthood authorities, where required?

12. If you have ever been divorced or separated, are you presently fulfilling your obligations for the support and maintenance of your family?

Now, here is a quote from "The Latter-day Saint Woman, Part B, Gospel Principles and Doctrine, 4: The Sabbath Day, 25:"

"I knew in my heart, when I slipped in a batch of wash on Sunday, or vacuumed the floor, or stole a peaceful moment after church to sew and watch TV, that I was not keeping the commandments and therefore had no blessing."

How sad is that little statement?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote an article in the 1971 Ensign about "Keeping The Sabbath Day Holy." His talk has been used and re-used, over and over, in manuals, General Conference talks, etc.

Here is a list of things not to do on the Sabbath, directly from that article:

Now, what about those activities that do not fit the spirit or purpose of the Sabbath? It seems to me that the following should be avoided on the Sabbath:

—Overworking and staying up late Saturday so that you are exhausted the next day.

—Filling the Sabbath so full of extra meetings that there is no time for prayer, meditation, family fellowship, and counseling.

—Doing gardening and odd jobs around the house.

—Taking trips to canyons or resorts, visiting friends socially, joy riding, wasting time, and engaging in other amusements. (See Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 165; Daniel H. Ludlow, Latter-day Prophets Speak, pp. 360–63.)

—Playing vigorously and going to movies.

—Engaging in sports and hunting “wild animals” which God made for the use of man only “in times of famine and excess of hunger.” (See D&C 89:15.) “Let the boys have their exercise. Let them have amusements at the proper time, but let them be taught better things on the Sabbath day,” said President Joseph F. Smith. (“What Shall We Do on the Sabbath Day?” Improvement Era, vol. 19, p. 864.)

—Reading material that does not contribute to your spiritual uplift.

—Shopping or supporting with your patronage businesses that operate on Sunday, such as grocery stores, supermarkets, restaurants, and service stations.

Here are a few helps toward a sacred Sabbath:

—Houseclean, straighten up, refuel the car, and prepare clothing and meals in advance on Saturday.

—Provide for recreation and amusements during the week and provide for a holiday during the week, if possible.

—Get a good rest on Saturday night.

Students should study their school subjects during the week and keep the Sabbath sacred.

Businesses that close on Sunday can succeed, and one successful restauranteur told why in a recent letter:

“You will note a number of reasons why I have closed my place of business on Sunday:

“1. The foremost reason, it was a commandment of the Lord that we wanted to obey.

“2. I did not feel that I wanted to ask thirty or forty fine people to break the Sabbath every week. …

“3. We had young children whom we wanted to teach the importance of keeping the Sabbath day holy. …

“4. The year we closed our business on Sunday we made more money than any previous year. …

“5. It is my testimony that the Lord has blessed us over the years and that we are far better off financially and spiritually than we ever would have been had we remained open on Sunday.

“6. I am so sure the Lord has blessed us that I would not dare open our place of business on Sunday. It is my firm conviction that if I open my place on Sunday and stop paying an honest tithing, I will be broke in one year.

“I have a firm conviction that the greatest guarantee for success in business for a Latter-day Saint is to honor the Sabbath day as the Lord has commanded. I would be glad to bear this testimony to anyone any time.”

What are the consequences of disobedience in keeping the Sabbath day holy? Our spiritual natures, needing spiritual food, shrink and die without it. Physical deterioration also results. “Let us, therefore, in the midst of our worldly callings and associations,” said President Joseph F. Smith, “not forget that paramount duty which we owe to ourselves and to our God.” (In Juvenile Instructor, March 1912, p. 145; see also Neh 13:15–22 and Isa. 58:13–14.)

President George Albert Smith said, “… that much of the sorrow and distress that is afflicting and will continue to afflict mankind is traceable to the fact that they have ignored his [God’s] admonition to keep the Sabbath day holy.” (Conference Report, October 1935, p. 120.)

What are the consequences of obedience to this divine law? Spiritually it will help us “keep ourselves unspotted from the world.” Temporally, “the fullness of the earth” will be ours. All this is possible if we cheerfully keep this divine law.


When I get more time, Cernovog, I'll research it more, but rest assured, it is taught and taught often, both from the pulpit and in classes, that Mormons are NOT to watch TV on Sunday.

At least that was my experience growing up. I always felt guilty when I did, especially football and I put myself through hell and sometimes even had to sneak to do it. I'd watch it with the volume down and then turn if off, if a certain die-hard family member was coming into the room.

Whenever I did this, I'd feel horrible, guilty and actually pray for forgiveness, because I knew I was being disobedient for watching football.

Also, I could never wrap my head around why it was okay for Steve Young to play on Sunday and that the Mormon Hierarchy considered that to be "missionary work", yet if I watched him play on Sunday while he did his "missionary work", on KSL, I was a "sinner" and not keeping the Sabbath Day Holy? I”m guessing that he must have been teaching the discussions during timeouts or shouting out gospel principles during plays or before the snap. Blue 42.....Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.......The Church is true......HIKE?!!

You said:

This week, one of the missionaries told me that "no alcohol" was a commandment, but "no caffeine" was a suggestion and, on rare occasions, he'll imbibe caffeinated drinks.

Well, let's take a long hard look at this question and what Hinckley and others have had to say about it:

Larry King: Salt Lake City, Utah, hello.

CALLER: Hello. How are you doing, Larry?

Larry King: Hi, I'm fine.

CALLER: I was wondering about some of the guidelines in dietary restrictions Mormons live by, and how strictly members follow it. Because I was reading, once, the word of wisdom. My impression was that its major point was that one should respect all life, including animals and, as such, only consume them when absolutely necessary to sustain life, and to then eat them sparingly. But I've noticed that Mormon -- this is rarely followed by Mormons, and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with, as reported by "TIME" magazine.

Larry King: OK, president?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don't know. You've read a part of the word of wisdom. The word of wisdom covers many things. It covers the excessive use of meat, as I see it. It covers, in a very particular way, the use of tobacco and alcohol.

Larry King: By saying no?

Gordon B. Hinckley: By saying, by proscribing those things.

Larry King: No to caffeine?

Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.

Larry King: Do you know why? Dietary -- in the Old Testament were based on the health of animals and stuff.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Well, the wonderful thing is that the Book of Mormon -- I mean, the word of wisdom has shown to be fruitful in what -- the accomplishments.


Now, let me say this, BYU, does not sell caffeinated drinks anywhere on their property(this includes BYU-Idaho, Hawaii, Provo, LDS Business college, etc), like Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Dr. Pepper, etc. Why is that? If it wasn't banned and wasn't a big deal, why wouldn't BYU sell it?

I mean holy crap man, they are gonna sell alcohol in Jesus' malls, to help "create a vibrant nightlife", and "it was their goal to sell wine", but can't sell caffeinated Coke and Pepsi at BYU? Uh....yeah...okay!! Again, the hypocrisy and absolute stupidity and lack of any sense, reigns, doesn't it?

I grew up, knowing that Pepsi and Coke were off limits and I frowned upon anyone that drank them, because in my opinion, from what I knew they were "breaking the Word of Wisdom." I felt like God would bless me more for not drinking them, I really did, but hey, I was a die-hard cult member, okay?

Also, I found the following tidbit, that you might enjoy, from a former missionary, that claims he asked Boyd K. Packer himself, when he came to his mission, what the church's stand on caffeine was.

This guy appears to be a TBM and he said the following:

I had an opportunity to ask Boyd K. Packer that very same question once. In my mission, many missionaries thought that drinking caffeine was so bad that they wouldn't let people get baptized until they renounced all caffeinated drinks.

Other missionaries would start each day by drinking a 2-liter bottle of Mountain Dew. I spent a lot of my mission being mocked by missionaries because I chose not to drink caffeine (which was actually pretty cruel, considering I have a heart condition).

So when Boyd K. Packer came to my mission and asked us if we had any questions I wanted to put the matter to rest by asking him if the Church had any specific policies on caffeine. His response, verbatim, was thus:

"Elder, we have a Word of Wisdom that says if there's anything that's bad, we should avoid it. The Word of Wisdom doesn't mention arsenic, but we know to avoid that. We don't need to be commanded in all things."

- Hephaestus

Well, I guess Boyd said it and so it must be so, just like the interracial marriage issue, right? I guess we came full circle here, didn't we?

I also remember a talk by Hinckley about how no one has to tell us that jumping off an overpass into rush hour traffic will kill us, or that we'll die if we dive into an empty swimming pool, etc.

Now, that's some divine revelation!! When I get more time, I'll look up the exact talk and its wording. I remember that I liked it at the time and thought it was cool...how sad!!

So I guess it's the same with caffeine...nobody has to tell us how dangerous it is, unless we are drinking hot chocolate, like Ray mentioned, at a church social, then it's okay, because the caffeine in hot chocolate is different and natural, unlike Coke and Pepsi(That's the official LDS BS line on it).

"Hot drinks are not for the belly" and caffeine is forbidden, so let's combine them and drink "HOT CHOCOLATE."(Which I love by the way, especially when I'm skiing....LOL!!) Give me a break!!

One quote that I found which really sums up how the Church feels about caffeine is from the Priesthood Bulletin printed and distributed in 1972 (February 1972: Volume 8, number 1, subheaded 6, paragraph 2):

With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.

In 1975, Bishop H. Burke Peterson of the Presiding Bishopric stated in the New Era;

We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used.

In 1980 in the Ensign, Elder Sterling W. Sill stated:

In the Word of Wisdom the Lord so narrowed down the width of the road leading to good health that, among other things, he placed alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine out of bounds.

In 1996 President Hinckley had the following conversation with Mike Wallace on 60 minutes:

Wallace: Mormons adhere to a very strict health code. No alcohol, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea, not even caffeinated soft drinks

Hinckley: Right.

Wallace: eat meat sparingly, exercise

Hinckley: Right.

Wallace: get plenty of sleep.

Hinckley: Right. It s wonderful!


In a 1997 interview, David Ransom and President Hinckley had the following exchange:

Ransom: But you do condemn so many things that are commonly accepted. For example no sex before marriage. No tobacco, no alcohol, no gambling not even coffee.

Hinckley: Yeah that's right.

Ransom: And very, very strict.

Hinckley: That's wonderful. And you live longer. And you are happier. And you are healthier.

Ransom: What s wonderful about not drinking coffee?

Hinckley: Oh ah coffee has all kinds of caffeine in it, other things. You don’t need coffee. Nobody needs coffee. You can get along without it. (David laughs).

DR: Not even early in the morning for an interview like this?

Gordon B. Hinckley: I had a cup of Milo.

DR: And that worked?

Gordon B. Hinckley: That worked.


Well, I should have just made this a damn post and I still might, but I think you have quite a bit of fuel now, to be able to discuss these issues with the missionaries and I'm sure that they have no clue about 90% of what I just shared with everyone.

Missionaries are not prepared properly at all and are in fact trained to "not answer" the tough questions, rather to steer people back to what they want to talk about using the.....what is is you ex-missionaries.......yeah, "THE COMMITMENT PATTERN" or as we called it in Spanish; "THE PATRON DE COMPROMISO."

Now, after saying everything I just said about the Sabbath Day and caffeine and let me throw in gambling....the Mormon Church has no official stand on any of them. There is no "OFFICIAL DOCTRINE" on any of those issues and breaking all 3, theoretically, won't keep you out of the temple.

You could go gamble on Sunday, while drinking a case of JOLT, eat at Chuck-A-RAMA and then come home and watch Sunday Night Football on KSL, followed by the BYU coaches show and then head off to the temple, with quite a buzz, on Monday morning...yes, that's how jacked up Mormonism is.

They don't have "official doctrines" on so many things, yet you are expected to do A,B,C,1,2,3, or else.

Also, there is tremendous peer pressure to do everything they ask you and so, in reality, they are commandments and people either lie in their interviews or don't do any of the above things I just mentioned.

Now, keep in mind, in Mormonism, a simple suggestion, especially by the so called Prophet, becomes an overnight "commandment", whether they admit it or not.

Hinckley suggesting one earring is enough in each ear for women, is now a commandment, especially for the youth and it is in their "Especially For Youth" rule book and is a rule at BYU and all Church campuses.

We now have stories of Bishops, walking up to women, in the hall between meetings and asking them to remove that 2nd earring, because it is a "commandment."

We Have David A. Bednar, advocating ending relationships if the woman won't remove that 2nd earring, because it was a "Prophet's pleading." Oh yeah, but like he says, it's not about the earrings and never was."

Hinckley challenging people to "read the book of Mormon", became an overnight, legendary commandment. People actually took their 2 weeks vacation, just to finish the BOM by December 31, 2005. I think the people are hungry for something, anything and just grab onto whatever they can, because they are all waiting for their Prophet to prophesy.

Well, I've gotta run, I hope this helped somebody out there and I enjoyed putting it together for all of you. Like I said, I think I really need to put this on my blog.

Take care Cernovog and I hope that one day you will actually, at least "like" my blog. If you don't that's fine, but feel free to drop by anytime you want to.



At Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:28:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey guys, I just wanted to share the latest personal message that I got over on YouTube. I guess I can add a couple more things to my list of names that I've been called:

cokepuma | September 23, 2006

Thank you sir for showing the world the "real truth" about a religion via half assed photoshopping and punk rock. I don't know much about the mormons, I don't go to any church, but I appreciate the true crusaders out there like yourself that can show me the way based on recycled one-liners. I do feel bad if the frat boys at BYU hurt your feelings back in '83, or maybe if Donny Osmond wouldn't give you an autograph, but maybe at some point you could think about moving on. I know it's hard, princess. When in your mind you build yourself up to be this great exposer of truth and evil but wake up to realize you have just been riding Michael Moore's dick your whole life, it has to be an eye-opener. But for now...you kick ass! Keep rockin buddy.

So, cool, I'm now a "Princess" and "I have just been riding Michael Moore's dick my whole life."

Just for the record, I think Michael Moore is a disgusting, loathsome piece of garbage and what I do, versus what he does, have absolutely nothing to do with one another. At least I use facts, truth and reality. Micheal Moore started out doing things right, but now, uses lies, half-truths and is just flat out arrogant, and uses no common sense or logical thinking, just to be able to further his agenda and make millions.

He will never admit he's wrong, even when it is proven that he is. I ask people all the time to show me why my quotes and links are wrong and they never do.

Michael Moore is a complete sell out and a disgrace!! But yeah, I guess he's my hero and I didn't even know it. Thanks Cokepuma for letting me know!!

My favorite part of his comment was, "I don't know much about the mormons, I don't go to any church.....", yeah, exactly!! Don't you just love the people that admit they have no idea what they are talking about, but then proceed to trash you, and act as if they are an authority on the subject? It's just amazing, that people can be this dumb, it really is!!

Anyway, I just wanted to share this with everyone, talk to you all soon,


At Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:58:00 PM, Anonymous ray said...

"Princess" Samuel,

LOL, that's a good one. You said, "Don't you just love the people that admit they have no idea what they are talking about..." Doesn't that kinda sound like Prophet Hinckley telling the media that he doesn't know much about the "problem" of homosexuality, and yet he has inspiration from god that it's a sin. I mean, they teach that if you're a practicing homosexual that you'll basically go to hell, and yet Pres. Hinckley says, "I'm not an expert in that area." He has absolutely no idea what the cause or "cure" is but he sure knows it's evil! I would think that a prophet of god could do better than that!

I had no idea there was a question in the temple recommend interview that asks if you are divorced, etc. I've never been asked that before. Interesting. Did they just add it?

At Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:17:00 AM, Blogger Sterling Knight said...

The "Divorce" question has been in the temple recommend interview for as long as I can remember, and if you say you have been, the next question is about kids and child support, if you had any and are paying support honestly and on time.

Oh, one other thing: my father is the most honest, worthy man on earth; if anyone is going to Heaven, he will, and he loved Sunday afternoon football games, so much that I couldn't watch what I wanted to. We also always hit the supermarket after church.

At Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:46:00 PM, Anonymous Cernovog said...

This idea of not lifting a finger on Sunday was also very strong in the Catholic Church, but that was back in the 1950s.

Things have really loosened up and become more reasonable, especially since Vatican II.

In fact, in the Catholic Church there is a Saturday evening Mass held specially for people who have to work on Sunday! If you are forced to work on Sunday, the Saturday evening Mass will count. (Technically, you're not supposed to go Saturday if there's no reason you can't make it on Sunday, like if you want to sleep in.) I thought everyone knew that, but I guess not. Did you guys know about that?

In addition, purely relaxing and entertaining activities like going to the movies or watching TV don't strike me as desecrating the Sabbath. God rested on the seventh day. So should we.

Now, I personally don't believe in conducting business transactions like going to the store on major holidays, but this is not a religious motivation.

I think everyone should get major holidays off: Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th of July. It's bullshit to go to a restaurant on Christmas and make someone work instead of spending time with their family, or... who the heck does this??? ...call the phone company and ask questions about your bill????

When I worked for a call center, they made us work on Christmas day.

So yeah, going to a store or calling a business on a huge holiday that everyone should have off, I think is pretty rotten.

Sunday I don't have that much of a problem.

Now a guy who runs a business and closes it on Sunday for religious reasons I think is cool. Those are his beliefs and I respect that.

How about that guy who runs that restaurant... Chick a'fill? Something like that? He pays all kinds of crazy fines to malls because he closes every Sunday.

I'm sure even the atheists and agnostics who visit this blog will agree that the man is entitled to his beliefs and deserves respect for actually living up to this standard, even if they don't recognize the doctrine behind it.

Thanks a million for doing all that crazy research, Samuel. Hey, just to clear something up, I didn't mean that I "don't like" your blog, as in I don't "enjoy" visiting or reading your opinions.

I just try to stay away from extreme, clearly anti-Mormon stuff and I try to get information that is as un-biased as possible. That's not always possible since I need to hear both sides of the story, so I get pro-LDS propoganda from one end (FARMS, Gospel Principles, etc.) and anti-LDS from another ... which would be you. ;)

I definitely respect you and I appreciate your insight and your point of view. I learn a lot by coming here.

At Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:02:00 PM, Anonymous 123 said...

Haha!! Cernovog, that last bit made me laugh: *I try to get information that is as un-biased as possible. That's not always possible since I need to hear both sides of the story, so I get pro-LDS propoganda from one end (FARMS, Gospel Principles, etc.) and anti-LDS from another*

Does that sound like Fox News--"fair and balanced"--to anyone else??? LOL

They get the two extremes: reactionary conservatives and radical liberals, let them yell at each other, call it unbiased, and close the program by flashing "Fair and Balanced News" on the screen. LOL

P.S. 'Princess', Thanks for that bit on Michael Moore. I might have needed to do it myself, but you stepped up to the plate nicely :)

At Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:23:00 PM, Anonymous Cernovog said...

No, you're absolutely right 123. It's just tough... almost impossible to find any source that's right down the middle, you know?

I like the Catholic Mormon podcast in this respect. They tend to be kinder and a bit more reserved because Sarah's family is still all Mormon and she and Rob are very sensitive to that.

On the other hand, it is still, admittedly, leaning on the anti-Mormon side since they both came to the conclusion that the LDS church is a fraud.

If you have a more neutral source for Mormon information and discussion, please share it.

Frankly, it's probably darn near impossible to be neutral on this issue. Either the BOM is a lie or it isn't.

At Friday, January 26, 2007 3:12:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First off I am currently a "mormon," please don't judge me just yet. Also please don't take my words/writings as doctrine or exact truth about the church, I'm 24 and not what you would call a scholar in the things of the church.

I would say that I understand what Belnap is saying, what I understand from the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ is that all people will return to God in heaven, like he said all will be resurrected and also those that follow Christ's teachings can be exalted in the hear after. That is why he said that it was an alternative, that you can return to God by following other faiths or teachings.

I believe this, but I also have a hard time when thinking of those like Hitler, and others that caused many lives to be taken and other horrible atrocities. Then I think of the teachings of the church that say that there was a war in heaven and all that came to earth chose Jesus in that war so I guess we did something right that makes it so that we can return to heaven no matter what.

I am going to just ramble a little here about some things. Sorry for the long post.

I don't enjoy hearing people say that we are a cult. I haven't read much and you probably haven't made that statement, but I have read some where that they did a survey of BYU students who I am guessing weren't thinking at the time that said they would kill if the prophet told them to. Sounds like Muslim raticals or a cult right? After reading that I understand why some see us as a cult. In my own mind I use my knowledge, my schooling, my historical understandings and I listen to what the church and the prophet say and then think it over before I "jump." If ever the church told me that if I drank this Koo-laid I would go to God or if I jump of this bridge I would find myself in heaven. That is just crazy, but that is what these BYU students were saying. I guess you could say I am not a usual "do exactly what they say mormon" but I try to keep my own mind and not let myself think that I must do everything the church says first before I think about what they have said.

I look at it this way from my small research just understandings of what I have heard on tv shows and from others about other church's that I out of all of them that The Church of Jesus Christ is the best one I have found and believe it to be the closest so far to the teachings of Christ. Who I believe was the son of God and I would probably only follow a Christian faith because I believe the bible to be true.

Anyway, I just wonder, what was the "breaking point" was for you that changed your opinion or belief in the church. I haven't read through your whole blog/site yet, maybe you have refered to this already but was just wondering what it was.

This is an interesting site and makes me love the internet even more to know that everyone even those that believe differently than me have an outlet that is accessible to all and can speak there mind.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, if it's worth that much. Sorry I went on for so long.

-Alan, a mormon.

Open minded mormon, I like to learn knew things even if they are from evil or wrong people I like to know what people think, believe and know. I even own Mien Kampf (sic?) by Hitler, don't tell anyone though they might excommunicate me, ha ha.

At Monday, April 09, 2007 7:00:00 PM, Blogger Ender said...

I think you need to think through your arguments a little more thouroughly. There is a good explanation for the stake presidents opinion, another good expanation for why god removes a commandment, and the other stuff. I tried finding out exactly what the stake president said, but the files wouldn't work. I think you are confused about his meaning of the word alternative and salvation. Salvation is very different for mormons and non mormons (3 degrees of glory versus the spirit world). The stake president would have been accurate if referring to the spirit world. Also, God can and does remove commandments. Back in Moses' day, the higher law was removed for the regular 10 commandments because of the people's wickedness. I don't believe anything said against the prophet Joseph Smith because of all the people I know that have 100% knowledge of his divine mission. Spiritual experiences do happen and people can have perfect knowledge of God.

At Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:07:00 PM, Anonymous BENJAMIN234 said...

Belnap is weak or perhaps mispoken. I am a member of the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is like Jesus saying I am an alternative to God. Not the case my friend. One faith, one baptism, on God.

At Wednesday, July 24, 2013 9:12:00 AM, Blogger Dave Waarheid said...

YouTube says that the account associated with the videos has been terminated.

The Christians say Mormons are not Christians because they don't believe in the same Jesus as they do, but the problem is that different Christian denominations have their own interpretation of Jesus, along with each sect and congregation, even if just slightly. Even the Jews have a little different version of Jesus than the Christians do, as well as Muslims. So which Christian congregation are the true Christians?

There's been so many different versions of the Bible even in Christian churches that I don't even care to keep track. Which one is the true Bible? What about all the writings collected before the Bible was canonized by Constantine?

The whole "definition of Jesus" thing to slam other religions is just another bomb to throw at each other. If you believe in Jesus Christ and follow or preach his teachings, you're a Christian, whether he's actually real or not.


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