Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Mocking And Ridiculing Missionaries!! He Was Trying To Be Funny And Impress Mike Wallace. It's Not Funny Pal!!
I came across this video a long time ago, sometime last year, when I first started my journey to the truth and I saved it. I think that this is a very accurate display of what Hinckley and the rest of his cult cronies think about Mormon missionaries. Look at the face of the missionary at the very end...does he look like he is laughing like Hinckley is?!! Also, Mike Wallace is sitting in the front row, as this appears to be part of the 60 minute special where Wallace interviewed Hinckley.
About 2 weeks ago, I put it up on YouTube and it has gotten quite a bit of response. Last week, it was honored as the 43rd most popular video discussed, under the "people" category. I just want to get the word out there of what a cult leader this Gordon B. Hinckley really is. I also wanted to give Mormon Truth readers the chance to weigh in and comment on this video, Hinckley and the overall treatment of missionaries; as nothing more than pieces of meat that they don't give a damn about.
This post is basically a follow up to the last post I made, which I ended with comments about missionaries and then the comment section also went in that direction. I just felt that this would definitely be an appropriate follow up to where that discussion led. I want to really thank Lori, Ray and John in London, for their comments, as this is a very passionate subject for me, knowing how I and so many others are and have been treated and abused on their missions. It is truly a travesty!!
These young men and young women, along with their families, deserve much more than this for the 2 years of sacrifice and $11,000-12,000 they have to fork out, for the honor of being an "abused Mormon missionary."
Then again, what can we expect from an organization/cult that doesn't care when a missionary gets raped, beaten, deathly ill or killed and can only say that "the work must go forward, it's the safest place to be in the world, we don't care how many get sick or die in the future, they are now doing missionary work on the other side, they couldn't have died in a better place then serving Jesus", etc?!!
It truly is sick and twisted and quite frankly, it's shocking to me that more people can't see this for what it is. When a missionary from Bountiful, Utah dies, they bring out the big guns; Hinckley and Ballard show up(in their Lexus), reassure everyone that the mission field is very safe, that the deceased missionary is now in a much better place, died for a great cause and so on.
Then, they just head on back to the holy of holies and have a good laugh about what a bunch of dumb asses the members are, to fall for their bullshit. Oh yeah, and they check in with the financial department before they head up there, to see how many millions have rolled in that day. It is truly just a sick and demented world they live in and I'm so happy to no longer be a part of it.
Take care everyone and feel free to leave your comments here or over on YouTube(you have to register), as I look forward to what everyone has to say about this video.
Samuel the Utahnite
Labels: Mormon, Mormon LDS Mormonism cult brainwashing indoctrination fraud lies liars criminals joseph smith pedophile child rape adultery Thomas Monson Henry Eyring crooks vile assholes TBM apologists prophet evil
posted by Samuel the Utahnite @ 12:22 PM
27 comments
27 Comments:
Hi, I wasn't in the MTC during this "talk", but heard the audio shortly afterwards. I was totally shocked, but wasn't surprised. Anyone who has been to the MTC can most likely remember how depressing it was even if you weren't being made fun of. I don't think any man or woman who goes on a Mormon mission has any idea of the abuse that they are about to undergo. I think they belive it really will be the best time of their lives and give all of their trust to their parents who have expected them to go and to the leaders. I don't think they have any idea how much they are being lied to and how far they are being thrown into the lions den.
When I heard this talk originally, it was truely one of the last nails in the coffin for me becasue for a man who was supposedly Jesus Christ's messenger and is supposedly full of love and compassion, Hinkley's words proved to be the antithesis of this. Then when I found out the whole JC thing was a hoax too, I just let the entire religious concept flush down the preverbial crapper and saw the naked emperor for what he was. Naked.
Thanks for posting this. It reminds me of the healty decision I made to get up and out of it all.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
When I was in the MTC we came back to our room one day and got bawled out because they had done an inspection and found that some of the elders (myself included) had left their garments on the floor. They threatened us with damnation and possibly getting sent home for defiling something sacred. I was honestly so scared by that, that I never left my sacred underwear out ever again!
I never felt more like a clone in my entire life than I did in the MTC. I was a number. We all had the same name: "elder". I felt like I was a product just rolling off the assembly line, especially the first day before we had our name tags. We all just got called elder.
How about those MTC showers? Just a pillar with 6 or 8 shower heads on them. There was no privacy at all! I would think TSCC would provide more private showers in an attempt to curve any homosexual activity, since they hate impure thoughts and gays so much.
So much sweat, sacrifice, mental anguish, just to be told by Hinckley that "they'll take us coz there's nothing better." I'm quite surprised that he would make that comment. Usually they praise the missionaries, especially in general conference, for being clean cut and groomed. But you know, they have to praise the missionaries publically to encourage the next generation to go. That little gem of a clip is something they church will never show and, like many other things, would love it to just "disappear" so they can pretend it never happened. Thanks for keeping it alive, Samuel.
I think hinckley's comments started out OK, but he finished up by showing his true feelings. Rather than telling those young guys who are PAYING for their missions, GIVING UP 2 years of their time, WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF--rather than telling them how grateful he is that they are doing this--YOU"RE ALL the LORD HAS??
Bull shit. That old buzzard should get down and kiss their feet for going out and trying to get more money for him and his cronies.
I freaking hate to see those old buzzards get up there and bitch out young people who are going to go work their butts off.
I look back on the day I left the church. I am SO glad that I did, otherwise my son would have gone on a mission.
I am sorry to hear that you have had bad experiences on your mission. Too bad you could not have spent that time out traveling, meeting people, and having FUN.
Bonnie
Thank you Bonnie, I really appreciate that.
I so agree, we go out there and work our butts off, even when physically and emotionally we are hammered, and then get told we just aren't enough, and to top it off we are paying to be abused. That is just sick and horrible to me.
Thanks again,
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
I never saw this video clip before, but I am not surprised by it either. I can imagine hearing it over 20 years ago when I was heading off on a mission.
I am on a slow modem and will try to see it shortly.
Thanks for sharing.
http://s6.invisionfree.com/denominations
Hi Samuel,
Hoping to hear more of your podcasts soon!
Hope everything is ok.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
I'll second that last comment. I check for new posts and/or podcasts every day. I really appreciate what you do Sammy!
Oh, and this video clip makes me sick. Those are some pretty bold statements made by such a frail old man. I truly feel sorry for people that blindly follow him and his so called "leadership."
Hi,
just wanted to drop a comment about the myth that you can learn sooo much on a mission:
This year, I have studied abroad in Japan, and people are amazed about how my Japanese has improved in this time.
While I was hardly able to converse last year, I now can fluently speak about different topics and get through everyday life here.
While many LDS stress how much language you learn on a mission, I doubt that in two ways:
1. You can learn a language much better if you attend professional language courses. As far as I know, after an MTC crash course, the missionaries do not get any language courses throughout their two year abroad. That's why, if you study abroad and additionally take language courses, you can learn much faster than if you just drill vocabularies sitting on your bed after a long and exhausting day (or tired after a much too short night).
2. Missionaries only learn the Lord's language:
Inspite of learning useful vocabularies which can be applied in your later workplace, missionaries learn lots of words and phrases which are solely related to the Book of Mormon and religion. Unless you want to become a general authority in that country, this part of language brings you not any further in life.
The story of the first vision, learnt by heart, will not prove beneficial if you want to buy a meal in China.
So, the myth that you can benefit much during your mission is absolutely nonsense.
If you instead plan to spend a year abroad, e.g. during your university time, you can learn much more.
Here is the reason:
Time.
You can progress in your major by attending lectures.
You can progress in your language skills by attending language courses as well as making friends and in your everyday life activities.
In contrast to your mission, you have lots of leisure, so you can get to know the culture of the country.
I learnt a lot about Japanese culture, which has broadened my narrow "western view". I doubt that many missionaries will learn about Japanese culture on their P-Day...
All in all, if you want to have abroad experiences, I encourage everyone to go abroad during your university time instead of going on an exhausting mission in which you learn lots of BoM/bible phrases you will most likely not use in the future.
Good luck on your study abroad,
Peter Meidorn.
It's no secret how Samuel feels about the LDS church and missions, but even he admits that he learned to speak Spanish fluently on his mission.
Though we may not agree with every single aspect of Mormonism, that doesn't mean that it has a core of pure evil and only evil comes from it. Or are you one of those people who hates vegetarians because Hitler refused to eat meat?
Cernovog,
actually no.
Hitler himself also had a good side.
For example, he was the first promoter of Germany's famous "Autobahn" (highway) system.
He promoted health, love towards nature and one's country.
Samuel learnt Spanish by molesting innocent people for two years, breaking apart families if only a part of them converted to Mormonism.
"Oh, but he learnt spanish."
That's not an argument.
He probably would speak a better and less LDS centered Spanish if he had attended a language school or studied abroad.
Just my opinion.
Peter
"Though we may not agree with every single aspect of Mormonism, that doesn't mean that it has a core of pure evil and only evil comes from it."
I think you're half right cernovog.
Plenty of good things come from the church, but what is really at its core? Over the course of my research these past several months, I've recognized and accepted the following:
1. Joseph Smith was a Mason.
2. The temple endowment ceremony borrows HEAVILY from secret Masonic rituals.
3. Masonry is devil worship "at it's core."
While I haven't decided yet where I personally stand with regard to religious beliefs, I am of the impression that if there is a God and thus a Jesus Christ and a devil, the devil would do anything in his power to fool men and lead them astray from salvation. Since we all pretty much know and accept that Mormonism relies on a gospel and a Jesus that is not in accordance with the Bible, and if we believe that satan can appear even as an "angel of light", then maybe Joseph Smith did in fact recieve a vision of some kind. But not one authorized of God.
And if it was not of God, it can only have come from the devil. And if the "church" Joseph Smith founded is based on satanic teachings (again, I reference the masonic influence), then Mormonism "at its core" can only be of satan.
Or is there a third possibility?
I'm open to suggestions.
Hey, you are really way out there, jumpboot.
Masonry is a fraternity to teach moral values with a system of symbolic enactments. Your opinion that is related to Satanism, yea, even that Satanism as such exists, is nonsense.
Satanism as an existing religion was founded by Anton LaVey in 1966.
Everything before that is a pure myth which stems from (mostly catholic) superstitious beliefs.
People projected their own fears and disbeliefs into the ficticious Satanists, and many stories about satanists were invented when new unbelievable dogma was established.
One example is the dogma of transsubstantiation. Only after its establishment, the story of "Black Masses" in which the host is desacrated were invented. This is a projection of the catholic people who did not understand/believe in transsubstantiation, but had to.
Because Satanists were not existent, people projected their fears and disbelief into people who were different from the norm.
This is how witches and the connection between "Satanism" and Freemasonry were invented.
If there are connections between Masonic symbols and symbols of "Satan worship", this is due to the fact that these symbols were assigned to be satanic by the Christian churches to condemn other people.
If you insist on Masons being satan worshippers, then I insist on Christmas and Easter being of pagan origin, that way 99.9% of all Christians are devil worshippers as well, with the exception of Jehovas Witnesses.
The best way of writing a post is:
1. inform yourself
2. write about what you know.
Obviously, you skipped part 1.
Greets,
Peter
Hey, I appreciate everyone's comments but I feel the need to straighten out and explain a couple of things and I'm going to be addressing "not-a-missionary-Peter"(NAM) and "Cernovog's comments", with my comments.
I actually agree with most of what both of you have said and I don't really think that you guys are too far apart on your thinking.
Now, as I've stated repeatedly throughout my blogs and in my podcasts for over a year now....one does not need to serve a mission in order to learn another language, culture, or about themselves.
I have promoted time and time again, that if somebody wants to learn these things; to just find some country where they want to go live and go live there. There doesn't need to be a connection to the Mormon Church at all, that's for sure. There are people all over the world that would sponsor you, let you live at their house or you can just go out on your own and do whatever the hell you want. If you are Mormon and want to stay with Mormons, you can do that too, but I wouldn't suggest it.
They will be freer, as "not a missionary" states(as I've stated both in blogs and many Emails), to learn the language, culture, go to the movies, date the babes, meet the people, go dancing, stay up all night, etc, etc.
The pathetic Mormon culture makes everyone believe that serving a mission is the only way to accomplish this and many come home spewing exactly this nonsense. People get it in their head, because their cult leaders always say it; that this is the only way, because God blesses you with the language, you are "the Lord's servant", it's a commandment of God to go and other pure bullshit.
Now whether you want to admit it or not NAM, you can learn Spanish very well on a mission, because I did. I admit that you don't learn medical, doctor, Lawyer or other worldly terms,(from the Church's material) but you can certainly learn enough to have an amazing base to build on and I'm sure that you'd agree with that. Also, you can take with you other books to study that are not on "the list."
Now, to live in a country for 22 or 23 months and not learn the language is an embarrassment. In order to accomplish this, I think that either you just didn't give a damn, had some type of learning disability or never studied. How can someone live in some other country for 2 years, talk to the people everyday, have to shop, talk to the cashiers, etc and not pick up the basics pretty well, especially when you have all of the resources to do so?
If I had lived there for 2 years and not learned Spanish fluently, I wouldn't have wanted to get off the plane, but that's just me and the way I am. It wasn't an option for me and I always drive myself to be the best at what I do.
I had the philosophy that if I was going to live for 2 years in another country, I was damn well going to learn that language as thoroughly as I could, which I did. In order to accomplish this, I studied 2-3 hours a day when I first got to the country and then at least an hour a day after I had learned it pretty well.
In other words, I did indeed study my brains out for 2 years and I'm grateful that I did. I also read the Book of Mormon 10 times in Spanish, which also helped a lot, as reading any book in another language would be very helpful.
A good example of how this works, is the Karate kid movies, with the wax on, wax off, etc. Daniel kept asking when he would learn how to punch, but already knew how, but just didn't know it. You may think that you can only speak "Mormon Spanish", only using "church terms", but I soon discovered that I could talk to anyone in the real world, pretty much about anything. If I didn't know a certain word, I could explain what it was with the other words I knew and then they would tell me the word and so I went on learning. I have used my Spanish with my work and jobs ever since my mission and it has made me a lot of money through the years. I still have people ask me what part of Argentina I'm from, which I love. I think I sound way more gringo now.....but once I get warmed up, I guess it's like riding a bike and comes back to me. It's a mindset and once I get the engine started, I'm fine.
For you, NAM, to say, as if it is fact, that "Missionaries only learn the Lord's language" is BS. Everyday, we were out on the streets, talking to people about this and that, building relationships of trust, talking to the members about daily events, etc. Also, within that "Lords language" and the memorization we did, was plenty of vocabulary and grammar. To suggest that we couldn't benefit from that is very naive and simply not true at all.
Spanish is now a part of me and just natural and I can speak it whenever I want or need to. I also have online friends from Argentina and other countries and I talk to them a ton, both through voice and messengers and it helps keep me sharp.
Also, NAM, I don't think that you ever took into consideration what living with a native for 6 months would do for one's language skills. Do you think that we only talked about Church stuff? Some guys are with natives for almost their entire mission....but I learned a ton in just the 6 months or so that I had. You have absolutely no choice but to eat, live, drink Spanish 24 hours a day.
I'm not sure where exactly your strong opinions are coming from on this, but they are flat out wrong and not based on any facts, in my opinion. You have left out a whole bunch of things that should be strongly considered when deciding if Mormon missionaries can actually learn "real Spanish", that works in the "real world", while serving a mission. Is their lack of really learning the language, to use in "real life", why the CIA and FBI, are full of former returned missionaries, that speak hundreds of languages or dialects from over 100 countries? I need some facts to back up what you are saying NAM, as I think the facts and evidence, are strongly stacked against what you are saying.
When I would see an American and even when I got home....English had become difficult to speak, since I was so used to speaking Spanish. It just becomes part of you, or at least it should.
So, how did I learn Spanish so well on my mission? Starting almost the first day I was in Argentina, I would carry index cards with me in my shirt pocket and write down any word that seemed common, but that I didn't understand. Also, the kids, some 5 years old, pointing at you and laughing, calling you "stupid gringo", was a huge motivating factor for me to learn Spanish quickly, not to mention very humbling. When a 4 or 5 year old can talk circles around you...yeah, like I said, humbling and motivating!!
I had a loser for a trainer, an American, who wouldn't speak any English to me for the first month I was there, until I let his sorry ass have it one night, completely in English. What it did do though, was force me to survive on my own, because he wouldn't speak any English to me out teaching the people, or at home in our so called dump of an apartment, covered with cockroaches.
So, his theory worked in helping me learn Spanish(which he spoke horribly) but it didn't help me emotionally and in many other ways, when I just needed to express myself and my extreme frustrations, in my native tongue, to someone that would understand. The reason that they give you an American as a trainer, is to help you, not make your life a living hell, or so I thought.
In any case, I would write these words down on my cards, go home every night and study them, look them up in the dictionary and learn them. Within 3-4 weeks, I was able to converse pretty freely with the people, and like I mentioned, I studied 2-3 hours a day, when I wasn't puking or sitting on the pot with the runs that is.
I should also mention that I started my mission in a part of Argentina where they spoke 1000 MPH and when I first got there, I thought they were speaking Japanese or something. However, learning to speak and understand Spanish in the part of Argentina, where they spoke it the fastest, helped me for the rest of my mission.
Later when I went to other areas, where they were "re-piola" and they spoke slowly, normally-I spoke twice as fast as they did and they all knew where I had learned Spanish....LOL.
But, more than anything, the people where the ones to help me and they were awesome!! I point blank asked for their help and they loved it and always helped me out. I wasn't going to be some arrogant prick and act like I already knew it all, because I didn't know shit and I had no problem being humble and asking for their help. They would say that no missionary had ever done that and I think it's because they teach you to be an arrogant know-it-all in the MTC, but that just isn't my nature, when I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. When you leave the MTC, you think that you are the king shit of the world and I was humbled to the dust the first day I got there and basically couldn't understand a thing anyone was saying.
In the MTC, after 2 months, you feel cocky, like you have arrived and you aren't even close. Some can admit that when they get to their country and some can't. Maybe that is why some learn their language and some don't.....I don't really know.
So anyway, I would ask them to please be patient and help me learn, so that I could speak like them. So, between the cards, their help and my own personal study, I was a pretty quick study.(I used to think it was because of the holy ghost and I gave the Mormon God all of the credit) I remember that if I didn't speak a whole lot, I could fake it pretty well after that first month and people would actually ask me "what part of Argentina I was from."
It pissed off my native zone leader, who was a complete asshole(and for some reason hated my guts from day one till the last day of his mission-PRICK!!) and also my arrogant trainer, that couldn't speak worth a shit, even though he thought he could and was amazingly arrogant about it.
Sadly, I had to help people understand what he was saying, after only a few weeks in the country and he would be incensed when they turned to me(who didn't hardly know anything) to find out what he had just said. My broken Spanish was better than his supposed fluent Spanish, which he bragged about daily.
Again, like I said, I had just mastered enough to bluff it at that point, give short concise answers, etc, but then after several months, and as time went along, I was asked a lot, what part of Argentina I was from. I don't mention this to brag, just to say that even though I was on a Mormon mission, I was able to learn Spanish very well, including the accent, which to me was very important, as I hate sounding like a gringo, which I think I do now after so many years of not being there.
Also, Argentines have their own special accents, as many of you know, along with their own dialect(Vos), so it was a little challenging to learn both, along with regular Spanish.
When I went into the MTC, I bought several books that weren't even required, to help me learn the vocab and I studied my brains out. I had one book on vocab, that contained all fields....medical, law, etc and so I did learn many of those terms on my own, which any missionary with desire can do.
After the mission, I went to college at BYU, took the Spanish class for returned missionaries, where we had to learn a lot of different Spanish and use it in ways we never had before and I learned a ton. I was a little nervous, but through study, I was fine and I got an A.
Then, I took the language test(which has nothing to do with religious words) about 4 months in,(you Spanish speakers know-por and para, ser and estar, etc) to skip I think 5 classes, and I was one of only 2 people, out of all the classes, to pass all the classes with an A.
Now, in order to prepare us for this test, they had a computer system set up to help us. We were required, by the class and teacher, to go through it twice, which took 3-4 hours each time. I spent my own time going through it 10 times, because I was serious about my Spanish and I wanted those A's. In my class were guys that didn't even go through this program once and they got straight Fs.
So, once again, it's up to what each individual makes of the situation and I worked my ass off in order to accomplish what I did and it had nothing to do with the Church words or terms, but REAL Spanish.
Now, I only mention this NAM, to point out that any person that serves a mission in a foreign country, where they have to learn the language, can accomplish exactly what I did, if they apply themselves and want it bad enough. It's just like life I guess and those of us with normal faculties, accomplish things mostly through our desire and determination and there is no set way of how things must be, for everyone.
In this case, it has more to do with the person and their desires, than it does with the fact that they are serving a mission in some foreign land.
If you have normal learning abilities and you go to a foreign land for nearly 2 years and don't take advantage of that time to master the language and accent as much as you can; you are a fool in my opinion and completely wasted that opportunity. I don't care if you are a missionary for the JWs, the Mormons or the Moonies, it doesn't matter!!
I guess that you could say that I've always been an opportunist and look to get whatever good I can out of even a horrible, horrific situation. I guess you could say that I'm a glass half-full kind of guy. Does that make the horrible, horrific situation any better? No, it doesn't, but if we don't learn SOMETHING from it, then it was a wasted experience in our life. I love knowledge and learning, even more now and I hate wasting experiences and getting nothing out of them.
It's all personal choice; we can choose to learn from a bad experience or choose to only focus on the bad and ignore any and all good. Sometimes, if not many times, we learn something bad from a bad experience, but we still learned something, right? Does learning something from a bad experience make us glad that we went through said experience? Of course not!!
I guess that I could just lie and say that I didn't learn shit on my mission, because the Mormon cult is pure evil, through and through and that I never learned the language fluently, never met any amazing, awesome, humble people, and that I never had any good experiences and all of my companions were complete assholes. Yeah, as a self-described anti-Mormon, I could say that, but it would be stupidity and a lie, both to myself and all of you.
What I'm trying to say is that even many of the prisoners of war, like Senator John McCain for example, have gone on to live great lives, give back to society and try to make things right, despite being in prisons for 5,6,7 or more years, in living conditions that made my mission look like I was living in a palace. Did they get something out of it, did it make them a better person in some ways? Sure it did!! Does that mean that they support their captors, thank them and are glad that they were locked up and tortured under horrific conditions? Of course not!! This is just one example.
The ex-Mormons that can only see the bad and refuse to admit any good, say that I'm not pissed off enough. The passive ex-Mormons, that don't give a shit, say that I'm very offensive and that I'm way too angry. The TBMS say that I'm now a tool of Satan and that I punch a time clock for the devil every morning, that I'm worse than a rapist and murderer. The right wing Christian nut-jobs say that they I will now lose my soul forever, want to raise my children to be homosexuals and that I should check into pedophilia as an alternative lifestyle, since I stand up for homosexual rights now....you get the point.
I'm not here to please everybody, rather to help those that are truly seeking the truth, starting with myself and those that will appreciate my honesty and straight forward approach. I use my passion, supported by facts, evidence and links, to show that I'm telling it the way it is, not the way I want it to be. The fact is, when it comes to this Mormon cult; I don't need to make anything up, because the straight-forward truth is bad enough.
When we've had a horrible experience, we can either focus entirely on the bad or be honest and also admit the good and what we got out of it. I would be doing a great disservice to myself, if through my anger at the Mormon cult(that lied to and deceived me for over 30 years, along with my family and friends), if I said my mission was all, 100% bad and that I had learned absolutely nothing from it. That would simply mean that I was an idiot and refused to acknowledge the good things I learned and that I was blinded by my rage. I'm a straight shooter and I'll gladly admit the good, along with the bad, as I'm just honest, like it or not and I get attacked by both sides, believe me!!
Now, back to the mission and learning Spanish for a minute; I had companions on my mission that had been out for nearly 2 years and couldn't speak Spanish worth a damn and I was embarrassed for them, even though they didn't care. I had been out 6 months or less and had to literally interpret what they said to the people, because they had no clue. Again, they just didn't care and I didn't understand then and I don't understand now, why that was. I also know that they weren't stupid guys, because they went to colleges, graduated, have great jobs, came from great families, etc. The fact is, they just had no desire to learn another language, even though they were stuck in a foreign country for 2 years....you tell me why?!!
To say or insinuate that every aspect of Mormonism at its core is just pure evil is ridiculous and we all know it. To say that religions like Catholic, JW, SDV and others, don't teach one single good thing, is again, just not true. I do strongly believe that the Mormon Church(along with most churches and religion in general) is evil and wrong and a cult that destroys lives and families, that Joseph Smith was a horrible human being, who raped little girls in the name of his so called God, while claiming that if they didn't have sex with him and marry him, that a homicidal angel would slay him with a flaming sword. He was a sick, perverted pathetic man!! Then you have people like the Mormon Apologist Van Hale, that state over and over, "I'm a disciple of Joseph Smith." Now that's just sad!! Yeah, what a great example for your kids to follow, right? Pathetic!!
Does this mean that everything they teach is pure evil, that ever member is pure evil, that no one can ever learn one single good thing in the Mormon Church? Of course not!! For some people, that were druggies, or alcoholics(Glen Beck) before joining, it saved their life. I doubt that Glen Beck even knows most of what I've written and talked about and maybe one day, he will learn the truth, take his good that he learned and get the hell out too, just like so many of us.
Now, it could have been any Church that saved them, but they happened to find the Mormon Church. Does this make them evil? No, it doesn't. If someone is happy as a Mormon and they feel it saved their life, then my message is not for them and I wish them luck. Everyone has the right to believe in whatever the hell they want, at least in my world. Now, that doesn't mean that I won't dispute you and challenge you, but hey, if you are happy, just keep doing what your doing. 99% of the time, it is they who engage me, not me attacking them. Once engaged, I will let the facts fly and as many of you already know; I won't hold back!!
Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for my critics, I don't have some God, or Jesus, who forbids me from getting into the gutter when needed, to straighten shit out. In other words, I can say whatever I want and express myself and the facts as I see fit.
For me to search for the good that came from my 2 years of personal sacrifice, is a natural and normal thing, not some bizarre journey in looking for the good that came from being a cult member for 30+ years. In no way am I trying to justify Mormonism or point out how great it is. Like Cernovog said, "It's no secret how Samuel feels about the LDS church and missions, but even he admits that he learned to speak Spanish fluently on his mission."
I mean admitting that I met wonderful people, learned a new culture and learned to speak Spanish fluently, while on my mission, is in no way meant to encourage ANYONE, to serve a Mormon mission and in fact, I wish that nobody would ever serve one again. I've then always followed that up with why they didn't need to serve a Mormon mission to learn these things, just as I've done in this comment.
I've done countless posts on the abuse and deaths of Mormon missionaries and will unfortunately, have to do many more. I created the "Mormon missionary Memoriam" page, which is the most current and inclusive listing of missionaries that have died, anywhere on or off of the Internet. I get hatemail on a regular basis from the families of those that are on the list, especially the current ones. Do I care, will I take it down? Hell no!!
It's amazing how they attack me and go ballistic, when there own freaking cult, doesn't give a damn and won't even acknowledge the ultimate sacrifice of their son, daughter, brother, sister, friend, etc. It's another sad commentary of this sick Mormon cult and what they have done to people. I have largely remained silent on this issue and I rarely even write them back anymore, because they are hopelessly lost in the "he died working for the Lord, there can be no better way to die" brainwashed mindset. It is truly sad and pathetic.
I state this to simply point out that in no way, will anyone that reads my blogs or listens to my podcasts, ever be able to misconstrue or feel confused about where I stand on Mormonism or specifically Mormon missions. If anyone is confused, keep reading and do some searches and that will quickly clear it up for you. Pointing out what I learned on my mission, does not cancel out everything that I've said about how horrible and abusive they are.
Now NAM/Peter, just for clarification of exactly where you are coming from and how you formed your strong opinion on this issue, did you serve a mission for the Mormon Church, was it foreign and did you learn the language while there? Have you been through the MTC training, know the books they use, etc? I'm just curious to know what your personal experience has been in the Mormon Church. I've been there, done that and I know how it works, have many friends and family members that have done the same and now I want to know what your experience was like. It's obvious that if you were Mormon and served a mission in a foreign country, that your experience must have been vastly different from mine.
Anyway, I think I've said what I wanted to say. Now, off of the subject for a minute; I know some of you endlessly bitch about my long comments, posts and podcasts, my anger and passion, etc...but hey, if you can't stand them and they irritate you so damn badly; do yourself and me a huge favor and don't read or listen to them an quit bitching!! Sounds pretty simple to me. Nobody is being forced to listen to my podcasts or read my blogs...so get a life and get lost!!
My blogs and podcasts exist, for me to be able to clearly express myself regarding whatever issue I choose to discuss. If I want to spend 2 hours writing a post or a comment, in response to a small comment, that's my business. If I wanted to be controlled and told what I could or couldn't say, I'd just head back to RFM. I still have a lot to get out, as it has just been slightly over a year since I discovered that I had been a cultist for 30 + years, so cut me some slack.
For those of you that don't care or have much to say or just easily got over it....congratulations!! I only wish that it could be that easy for everyone else. Maybe instead of bitching about how others are dealing with the shock and horror of their discovery, you could tell all of us how and why it was so easy for you. It's pretty obvious to me that these folks that make it seem so easy and can't understand why anyone would be pissed off, haven't lost family or friends over their learning of the truth and can't even begin to understand what those of us who are pissed off, are going through. It must be that leftover, TBM, "I've got the only truth" and "I'm gonna be a God someday" arrogance. Hopefully one day you will get over your arrogance.
Keep in mind that these "milk toast", "I don't give a shit" people, don't even bother me, until they attack me for being too angry, etc. I allow everyone to deal with their discovery however they see fit, but if they are gonna question me, call me out and wonder how in the world I can be angry and pissed off, because they aren't....I'm gonna question them too. Of course, they rarely or never respond.
I'm only speaking to those that have attacked me, not those that just sit back and do their thing privately...I just wanted to be clear. I may not understand them, just like they don't understand me, but we can each allow the other to cope and deal how they see fit. If they want to get personal, well, I can play that game too but they will have to initiate it. I simply don't want to make a complete ass of myself, by going after some innocent person and saying, "hey dude, why aren't you pissed off like me, you idiot. You have no right to be calm about your whole world collapsing." Maybe they are angry internally but can't express it, who knows?
Take care everyone and thanks for your support, comments and patience, as I haven't had the time to put out my podcasts or write any posts lately. Don't worry, I'm not retired or ever going to give this up, I've just had other matters that took precedence, such as visiting family and family visiting me. I can't say, "hey guys, I'd love for you to come visit, but I'm currently on an anti-Mormon mission and just don't have time"...LOL!! I may have wanted to say that, but I couldn't...LOL!! Most of them still think I'm a TBM with questions, as I'm trying to make them think outside of their little Mormon box, whenever possible. Thanks again for your patience and understanding, as I'm doing the best that I can in a busy, crazy world.
One more quick note...for everyone, especially Jumpboot, may I highly suggest the "Robert Ingersoll Podcast." I think that may help you decide and understand what you believe and why you believe it and where it originally came from. The guy was a genius and way before his time, in my opinion. He makes Joseph Smith look like the complete idiot that he truly was and at least uses logic, not mystical fantasy, or homicidal angels with flaming swords, to express very clearly why he believes what he does. Check it out Jumpboot, you won't be disappointed, or then again, you might be, if you have chosen to believe in the traditional Jesus/God theory.
Talk to everyone soon,
Samuel
Hi Samuel,
Good to hear from you.
I personally do indeed believe that Mormonism in absolutely rotten to the core. The very center of it is rotating around seperating youself from "you". It used cult control tactics to acomplish this.
Joseph Smith was practicing con man way before Mormonism was born. Everything was a lie intended to decieve from the very beginning. He was a poor lazy farmer who had no intention of working an honest days work for his life support. He saw plenty of "preachers" condemn and get a huge rise out of people and get some money for it and a light went on in his head.
Having said this, as missionary work is no more than sales for this corrupt organization, I completely agree that at it's core missions are worthless because they keep you away from "you" meaning what "you" need for "you" to learn what you "want" to learn, spend "your" time taking care of "you" and following "your" interests. Instead you are told when to get up, go to bed, eat, who to talk to etc. There isn't a single moment for "you".
For those of you who went on foreign speaking missions and really learned the language, it it my personal opinion that that happened because of "you", not the church. "You" said Samuel that "you" studied that hard because that is who "You" were. "You" made it happen and "you" have gotten to the point that "you" can make something of your furture because of the time "you" put in. The Kudos goes to you, not the chuch.
Many people take good things from their missions or time in the church, but those things are what "we" made of it, not what the church offerred. The poster is totally right when he says that no additional training is given after the MTC. If you sit back and think about that, there is no way that just being thrown into the kettle is going to teach you the same quality of language as actually spending daylight hours when you aren't physically and emotionally exausted in a classroom focused on learning the language!!
I'm currently living over seas and half the population either speak Maori or Samoan. I have no idea most of the time what people are saying. I do time to time pick things up, but I'm not hear as a student or a missionary, I'm here as a civilian working by my own choice. Although I'm not intending to learn these languages, I can absolutely see the benefit of going to classes to learn these things as opposed to attempting to have a conversation with someone and having to stop them ever single syllable and ask them to slow down or repeat.
I think anyone comes home from a foreign speaking mission with a good grasp of the language is to be applauded, but only for themselves, because "they" are the ones how did the hard yards in the middle of exhausting circumstances to win that knowledge.
Now, do many of them actually do anything with it when they come home? Now that is a different story all together.....
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
On a slightly different topic. In talking about the pain a person feels in learning that their life long religion is a total fraud, that is only half the pain.
I think that some posters here are at different levels of anger, and passion simply based on how much they've lost in leaving the church.
For example, when you find out the church is a fraud and you keep going to keep up appearances for your family or for your own safety, you feel a terrible opposition working non stop in your gut to the point where it bubbles over and you simply cannot look yourself in the face anymore unless you own your truth and walk away and "out" yourself to your family and friend regardless of the consequences. But just when you've relieved that pain, another outward pain is about to be thrust upon you.
So, now you've realized the church is a fraud, you've found the courage to stand up openly to your convictions, you're willing to lose everything you have to be true to yourself (secretly hoping that the fallout won't get too, too bad), and then...and only after that does your world actually fall apart.
People you once knew as mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, boss, friend, lover, wife, husband, son, daughter, neigbor, etc, have now become your worst nightmare. You are no longer a part of social structure above. You are an outcast of the truest kind. If you come from a TBM family, you can almost rest assured that you will be totally rejected. You will find yourself with a divorce and lose custody of your children. If you are single and you have no partner or family, you no longer be called "son" or "daughter". You will no longer get phone calls, letter, emails, any sort of recongition that you ever existed. You will be a vagabond and if you don't learn really fast how to live on this planet and take care of every need you have immediately, you will most likely die just from the sheer horriblness of the situation. Everything you once knew from birthday parties, Thanksgiving, Christmas, normal daily interaction...is gone. The support you may have had if you had something bad happen to you is...gone. You don't exist. If you try to exist, you will be threatened if you dare talk about your feelings about the church or the family. If you dare speak your discomfort in the way you are being treated, you will be punished for that one way or another for daring to destroy their "momon image".
For people who have been through this and who have survived, and who are thriving totally independently from the life they once knew, have my utmost respect. Having your life blow up in front of you leaving nothing but rubble and you having to move on with only your courage and determination takes a sort of intestinal fortitude that is rarely seen. Perhaps Katrina victims or Tsunami victims understand that a bit, but then their homes were destroyed, not their love for each other, even in death.
For survivors of Mormonism, we've had our hearts broken to the utmost degree. Death would have been easier to swallow rather than look into the face of your once beloved mother and father and watching their faces twist and turn into the most horrible scenes of hatred towards.......you.
My heart goes out to all of you who have found your way through this perilous, black journey. It is you that I consider "family" more than anyone who I grew up with. You people have really proven yourselves.
Thanks,
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Great comments, all.
Well, except for not-a-missionary who thought it necessary to strike below the belt by insinuating that I was "uninformed" with regards to the true nature of freemasonry.
I mean, do we have to resort to this kind of adolescent behavior in order to get a point accross?
I'll admit NAM, I am no expert on masonry, satanism, luciferianism, etc. although you certainly appear to be, but I have done some research on freemasonry in order to better understand its relationship and influence on mormonism.
A simple google search brings up several sites dedicated to exposing freemasonry to what it really is about, which isn't the innocent "fraternity" misconception that you obviously cling to. Here's some info that I found helpful, and maybe you will to:
"Many people still do not understand the importance of studying this subject to its logical conclusion. Their spiritual freedom is at stake. Remember two things about Masonry: 1) Superior Masons deliberately lie to their fellow Masons, as those Masons "deserve to be mislead;" 2) Explanations given to 95% of all Masons are wrong. This quote from Masonic author, Carl Claudy sums it all up: "Cut through the outer shell and find a meaning; cut through that meaning and find another; under it, if you dig deep enough, you may find a third, a fourth -- who shall say how many teachings?" Many who are in Masonry are not aware that they are lied to. Finally, remember Albert Pike's bold assertion in Morals & Dogma, that "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries," which means that all their teachings in all their books are precisely the same as the Ancient, Pagan, Satanic Mysteries. [p. 624, teachings of the 28th Degree]
Of course these top 5% call Jesus Christ an "inferior god," they never, ever mention Him in their teachings or their rituals. This shouldn't surprise you since the Pope carries a bent Satanic cross as seen on another page which shames Christ on the cross.
Freemasons used Luciferic symbols within the layout of government center Washington D.C. Freemasons worship Lucifer, the Light-Bearer. Lucifer and Satan are biblically the same individual, Freemasonry is really the worship of Satan. By quoting their own sources and depicting the symbols in which they use, this claim is proven.
Freemasonry gives itself away more through its symbols than it does in its writings. You saw in the analogy page of "The Matrix" that high level Masons praise Lucifer. It is within these writings the "smoking gun" will be found, proof that Masons worship Satan. Once this is comprehended, you will understand why "they" have been trying to keep this all secret. If people really understood that Masonry is the worship of Satan, no one in their right mind would join. Not only that but people would demand that this organization be outlawed. You have a continuous public relations campaign promoting the lie that Freemasonry is not a religion, and is just a "good works social organization." As quoted above, you have secrets within secrets."
But then again, being the well educated person you are NAM, perhaps you possess some useful information that will refute this.
Again, I'm still in the process of freeing myself from mormonism and I find myself at a spiritual crossroads. Do I believe in God? If so, then it stands to reason that I must believe in the devil and if he exists, then I have to accept that he will do anything in his power to bring mankind to a miserable state even as he is in. What better tool to use to achieve this goal than freemasonry, under the guise of an "innocent fraternity"?
I'm reminded of the movie The Usual Suspects in which Kevin Spacey's character says something to the effect of "The devil's greatest trick was convincing the world that he doesn't exist."
So when you say "Your opinion that is related to Satanism, yea, even that Satanism as such exists, is nonsense" it makes me wonder where you stand on the issue. I mean, what are you? An ex-mo? A TBM? A practicing mason?
I think this is a great forum and a good way to gather information and various viewpoints. We have a lot to learn from each other, so let's not any of us assume we have all the answers and conduct ourselves in a condescending fashion. But that's just a suggestion.
Thanks again for your hard work and dedication Samuel. We're all anxiously awaiting your next post and/or podcast!
Oh, just to clarify, it's not that I didn't think NAM's post wasn't good. It was well intentioned, and well constructed. I just wasn't all that receptive to his comment that called my intelligence into question.
But thanks for taking an interest in my thoughts NAM!
Hi Sam. Ive listened to all your podcasts. Very interesting. You seem sincere, and very upset (understandably so). Although I understand your position and share many concerns, I don't agree with your conclusions. In the case of this video, I think a case could be made that we could say the same thing about Pres Hinkley... He may not be much to look at, but he is all we got. And the same way God can make 19 year old erring boys speak with the conviction the Spirit can bring, he can make a 90 somthing year old febal man to serve His current purposes in preparation for much greater things. I think Hinkley is just acknowledging how short we all fall from perfection, but through humility and faith, we can still do Gods work.
Hi Mckay,
Actually, I disagree with you. These "19 year olds" are volunteers who have been cohersed, guilted and brainwashed into going on the mission anyway and now they are being abused and belittled for paying at least $11,000 for the opportunity. These people deserve the utmost respect for surviving the enormous pressure to go in the first place, for paying for the torture themselves, and for dealing with the intense bordom, rejection and cognitive dissonance that they will soon discover.
No, these comments are totally abusive period. I don't know where you are as far as your feelings about the church, but when you are finally out, have done the research to discover the church to be a total fraud, you view these things very differently.
Thanks,
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Hi Lori,
I have done the research. Over a decades worth actually. I doubt there is a thing you can tell me that I havent heard and researched, but Im more than willing to listen and discuss the more controversial issues openly. Like I said, I share your concerns in many areas, I am greatly troubled at times with what I see. But I have to say, when Christ came to earth, those he rebuked the most belonged to his own faith (the Pharasies). I see hypocrisy, backbiting, guile, scorn, abuse and coersion going on in the church, and I think many members are more motivated by social acceptance than strong conviciton. This is a fact and it makes me very sad.
In regards to missions... they are VERY hard, and I think people must have strong convictions to be able to undure the trials. Those convictions dont come to everyone, or at least not at such a young age, and not everyone has the personality type that would mesh well with the mission conditions... I think to try and force the issue is wrong, and it does far more harm than good. However, there are those that choose to go, and endure very harsh conditions, and still cherish the experience. I dont think I could have endured those conditons personaly, so I am definetly not judging. I sincerelly belive you are right in your concerns... just not your conclusions.
As for my standing with the church, I was inactive for many years for the reasons stated above and a few others, but even still, I have had a stong conviction of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. I had an experience I cannot deny that has carried me through extreme challenges of faith. The one thing I will say, we Mormons do rely on our "feeling" and the "burning" so to speak, which I suppose could easily be mocked. What I dont think people understand is how strong that feeling may be. For me it was not some subtle emotion or good tingly feeling... such a feeling could hardly have carried me through my doubts and trails. No... this feeling sank deep and penetrated my entire being. In addition, everything took on a luminsent glow, my mind expanded immensly, my eyes overflowed with tears... and I felt for quite a time.... perfect. I felt the love of Christ that made me perfect which completely enveloped me. To deny it would be like denying the sun shines. I just can't do it, although at many times I really wanted to. So what am I left with when I see the same things you do and share your concerns? For many years heartache, confusion, and sadness.
It took every ounce of humility I could muster to accept the shortcomings of the people in the church, and embrase the Gospel in spite of the contradictions I see. But I have, and it has been quite a healing experience for me. I have come to understand the restoration of the gospel as a process, not an event. A process that continues, with very imperfect people who have many lessons to learn. including myself. But for far too long I suppresed my own testimony because of my inability to forgive many unjust treatments I received from members (even leaders) of the church. I carried bitterness and judgement in my heart for many years, to the point I nearly denied the gift I had recieved. In other words I would almost rather deny the testimony I received than to forgive what happened to me... the hurt was that deep. But today I am sincerly sadened that I did not live up to my testimony for those many years. I am not saying my feeling were not justified to an extent.. as I really was mistreated (especially by my own father). But I know I am in great need of forgiveness personally, and I had to learn to fogive what had happened to me. I have had a great deal of pride to overcome.
I should say that while these problems do exist in the church, I also see wonderful things happening. I see people carried through extreem trials with strong support, I have heard words come through the mouths of teenagers that have pierced me to the core, I have seen those dealing with addictions completely overcome their problems. I have seen people learn how to sacrifice for the benefit of others, but most imortantly I have seen sincere people grow in knowledge, humilty, faith and testimony of Christ.
So while there are many problems, I would also say that many of the problems you speak of DO have answers... real answers. But for me what it ultimately comes down to is my faith and conviction. Whenever I get filled with pride that I feel I know the answers better than another, or better than God even, I have to stop... I look up at the vastness of the night sky and the beauty of the organized universe, or at the complexity of design in flower, a leaf, or a blade of grass for that matter, and I simply marvel. The things we take for granted every day.. they are all miraculous. And I still haven't got the first clue as to how these things work.. none of us do really, even with all the scientific knowledge we have after thousands of years of research and growth, we have hardly learned to disassemble at atom and release its destructive power and energy, but tell me.. do you thing we could put it back together? We humans seem to be so good at destruction, but creation is a entirely different area. Could we take even the first step at creating a flower with nothing but the core materials? Or could we make the core materials for that matter? How could we come up with the energy necessary to hold a simple atom in place? The simple fact is, we can't.
So as far as I'm concerned, I am not the teacher, I am the student. Christ is the master at creation, and I have been given the gift to know He exists. So what choice do I have but do humble myself to the depths and confess my ignorance? Ultimately, I cannot let my preconceived learning, prejudices, or social influence determine absolute truth. I must acknowledge that much of what I might think I know could simply be wrong, no matter who says it is right. Ultimate truth is not determined by who is the better debater or who has the most influence in the educational system, although peoples perception of truth can be determined by these things. Ultimate truth has always existed, but our understanding continually evolves. Things we thought we knew yesterday we esteem as ridiculous today, and I am fully confident that things we accept today will be considered heresy in the years to come. All I know is what I received as a witness that God lives and that His doctrines are true. So if in a position of doubt or apparent contradiction, I must lean on faith in God's word, that we will understand someday, and that we should learn line upon line, and live in faith to the issues we do not yet understand.
I appreciate your concerns, I have no contempt for you at all. If anything, I sympathize. If it means anything.... I am sorry. I am sorry for everyone onthat have suffered from mistreatment from chuch or its leaders. I do not share the oppinions of many LDS people who say everyone that leaves the church is an evil apostate sinner. Our own scriptures condemn this theology (i'll spare you the examples). If your contempt is due to bad examples, and abuse, the problem is on them. It sickens me that so much evil is performed in the name of God with religions all over the world. It especially bothers me within my own faith. Its the sickest abuse I know of. It is the rare man that can hold the power and Authority of God without abusing it to serve selfish desires. Hence many are called, few are chosen. even withing the confines of the true Gospel, there have been, and will continue to be many errors made. But we learn and grow as we overcome those errors.
Anyways.. whatever. I could go on... but I will spare all of you. Like I said, I would love to debate. I am not afraid of the allegations or controversies. I embrace our history, and I live for open, honest, debate. I think you will find we have more in common than not.. Like I said, only our conclusions differ.
mckay,
You have truly done something that most of us certainly can't. That is to continue to believe in the church in spite of all the evidence that it is not what it claims to be. I've got no problem with anyone who chooses to remain in the faith; in fact, I admire your courage to do so. There is no way I could personally do that. I just hope you really know what you're doing. That must have been a pretty incredible experience that you had. I don't doubt that you had it at all. In fact, I felt similar things myself. I just realize now that emotions are powerful and sometimes cloud judgement.
Bear with me for a moment. What species is the most selfish, greedy, and destructive? Humans, of course. Why would an all knowing God give unlimited power (the priesthood) to the most unworthy creatures: those who absue it to "get gain" (a phrase used in the Book of Mormon)? It seems that all religions think they and only they have the power of God and they all use it to usurp and control. I agree with you, many horrible things have been done in the name of God. So that should make you (at least it does me) ask the question: is there really a God who would allow such horrible things to happen in his name? By giving the priesthood to man, God is just setting himself up to be framed for more injustices! Either God is a dumbass or man has invented him. Most likely, the latter.
What experience did you have that you know Jesus lives? Being an ex-Mormon myself, I know exactly what you are going to say: "It's too sacred. I can't share it." That's fine, but if Jesus wants the whole world to believe in him and know about him, why does he tell all the true knowers to keep it a secret? Again, either a dumbass or made up (not you, but god).
As I read your post above, I can certainly tell that you are very sincere. I'm not questioning that at all. You are one of the few who has actually received that burning sensation. If you get most people to talk honestly about it, they will tell you that no such thing ever happened to them, in spite of fasting and praying for days to get it.
The similarities between Jesus Christ and all other mythological heros is quite amazing. Having no early father (half human, half god). An assination attempt on them when they are still infants. Having a mission to accomplish that no one else can do. Being the firstborn. I'm no expert in mythology, but the only difference I can see between Jesus and Hercules is the name!
So I hope you know what you're doing, trusting your feelings more than facts, church history, world history, etc. Of course, I don't believe you'll be damned by believing. I just believe you'll live a lie until you die.
If the church is true, why do they demand your money in exchange for your salvation? In the Bible and the Book of Mormon it says that the gospel is free to everyone. (Isa. 55:1; 2 Ne. 9:50, 26:25; Alma 1:20) If that is true, why does the church teach that paying tithing is necessary for salvation? As a matter of fact, even the Book of Mormon teaches that false churches will forgive your sins for money (Mormon 8:32-33). And again, 1 Cor. 9:16-18, says that both teachers and students of the gospel will do so without charge! But according to Mormon doctrine, you will burn if you don't pay (D&C 64:23, 85:3). How do you explain this clear contradiction? Go ahead and believe in The Church of Je$u$ Chri$t of Latter-day $aint$.
If you are as informed as you say you are, then I guess you know what you're doing. Best of luck to you. I have no desire to debate. I have issued this challenge before: if you or anyone can muster enough faith to summon an angel to come kick my ass, like Alma the Younger, then I will crawl back to church (literally) and become a true believer again. In fact I will dedicate my life to the church. But since the BoM is fiction, no such thing has ever happened, nor will it ever. But my challenge stands. Until then, I just can't believe it. Call me a doubting Thomas, I don't care. Jesus commended Thomas for believing after he saw. So as soon as I see, I will believe. If my soul is that important to god, then he will make arrangements for it to happen. If it doesn't happen, it must not have been gods will. So, either way, I feel pretty safe.
Dang... Where do I begin? Actually I find you facsinating. Believe it or not, our minds work very much alike. I remember sitting in Sacrament at the age of 4 or 5 listening to testimony meeting and thinking.... These prople are silly, what are they talking about they "Know" the church is true. I sensed much of it was phoney or just peoples emotions since a VERY young age. I have always been very sensitive to my environment and to peoples motives. I can spot a hypocrite a mile away no matter how good they look on the surface. I cant stand things that are fake or contrived. I cant stand people who try to make things look good on the surface to keep up with social status. I especially cannot stand those who abuse authority and/or force beliefs through manipulation, fear, physical force, cooersion, or anything of the sorts. I respect personal agency above any other principal. The freedom to choose how they will live and worship(or not).
I have always had a very rational mind, and I call things like I see them. I have been known to stand up to authority figures my entire life if I felt any injustice was taking place. That will never change. So I would have NO problem leaving the church if I felt its doctrines were false despite the ramications it would bring to my family. I Cannot, Will NOT let myself follow a religous dogma for social, political, or financial purpouses. God endowed me with a concience, a mind, reason, and logic, and freedom of thought. I think he expects me to use it. My motives, when it comes to my faith is simply to know truth and to have the stregnth, conviction, and humility to live it no matter what the social, political, or financial ramifications may be.
One of the things that bothers me so deeply is how much religious figures abuse authority. They force beliefs on those that are dependent on them. Parents do this to children, governments to citizens, Church leaders to members and so on. The sickest form of this is adults to children. Children are completely innocent and dependent for their needs, they have no recourse if treated poorly. I don't see how parents or religious leaders could not see how abusive their behaviors are if they don't respect personal agency and freedom. The Second we use our power to force or manipulate the opinion of another, we violate the #1 most sacred principal given to man. People are free to choose what doctrines they will believe,.. they are free to choose to follow Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Allah, or whomever or whatever they want. This is the most sacred gift God has given us. How the church or leaders or any member cannot see the hypocrisy that has taken place and even encouraged by depriving anyone of this sacred privilege is beyond me.
You show me the person who has been manipulated into a belief in any way. And I will show you a faith that will disintegrate under pressure, and ultimately end up with bitterness and resentment toward the faith that was pushed on them. On the other hand, show me an honest person who has chosen their belief based on their own conscience and reasoning, or that was taught to them by someone through example, integrity, and kindness,.. with a pure motive, and I will show you an individual who will defend that faith valiantly and hold their mentor in the highest esteem.
My own children (I have 4) are as free to choose their faith as I was mine. They are free to have their own conversion experience or not. They are free to live life as a republican, democrat, mormon, Buddhist, Fascist, or as a Gay transvestite feminist Nazi. I will love them the same. Of course I will do the best I can to influence by example to live good honest, decent lives, and to live in accordance with eternal endless laws of integrity, honor, love, respect, kindness, virtue, optimism, etc. But I will never force anything on them... EVER.
But as for my own faith. I know what I received. I know that God lives and I have felt His love, which is more perfect and glorious than I could ever hope to explain. Words could never do it justice. For whatever reason He gave me that gift. He gave me the gift to know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. And to know that the Book of Mormon is true doctrine.
I want you to know. That I have suffered at the hand of members of the church, through humiliation, coercion, abuse, lies, gossip, intimidation and more. The injustice and betrayal I have felt bring tears to my eyes even to this day. And how these things can take place within the context of the true gospel... I simply don't know. But I do know what I got, and for many many years I shoved it away, unwilling to accept that this was the true gospel because of the pain I had experienced. But just as I said what I pray for is to know and recognize truth, and to have the strength and humility to live it. And I said that I would leave the church no matter what the ramifications if I did not believed its doctrines. So I will also say, that no matter what the problems of its members, no matter what the history may say, no matter what the contradictions in the quotes of its leaders, no matter what wrong have been commited personaly against me, the fact is that I believe Christ true doctrines are contained within it. So I must ebrace it, endure it, and live it. At times this has been the harderst thing emotionally I have ever done, and.. at times, it has been the most rewarding and fulfulling.
Having said that, I will also say, that when I gained the ability to humble myself... truly humble myself I realized that many of my perceptions were warped because of my anger and personal sins that clouded my judgement. I have come to know a body of wonderful believing people in the church, I have come to know that for the great majority, no matter what their weaknesses and imperfections, that the church leaders are honest, sincere, believing men who have sincere motives and pure intentions. I don't always agree with them, But I respect them. I have come to know that humility and forgiveness is far more enlightening and healing than scorn, vengeance and ridicule. I have come to know that much of my inability to embrace the gospel came from my own lack of belief that I could live it and my desire to live life how I wanted. But how could I expect for forgiveness and patience from God for my own weaknesses if I cannot extend the same to others?
So where do I stand now? I will say I do not give my allegiance to the Church per se. Churches can too easily become corrupt. If we accept LDS Doctrine we must know that Gods true church has been Jewish, Christian, and Mormon and been known by any number of names. And that 99.99999% of religions are corrupt to some extent. So allegiance solely to a church seems naive, and suspicion and skepticism are justified. If not for these qualities Joseph Smith never would have had doubts and restored the church. Allegiance to the will of God is the only safe bet. But as of yet, I believe God still sanctions it, and prophecy states he will continue to sanction it until he comest again. Not that it is perfect.... but as a story in the Bible states... If even there is ONE righteous among them, he will spare the lives of the people. The Book of Mormon states that the church dwindled to only ONE believing member, and when he died it was no longer sanctioned and destroyed. Personally I am grateful he does not abandoned his people because of their problems, and that He is patient, and long suffering. It gives me hope for me.
So I do embrace my heritage and my faith. If the prophets are wrong, they are wrong... and if I live right, God will give me the ability to know it. If the members are wrong, they are wrong...simple as that. Most of the problems we speak of are not unique to the LDS culture. They are inherent in the human condition. The Gospel is provided to help us out of that condition and to reach a higher realm of existence. But we are all at different levels and we must all learn for ourselves.
As for your position? I respect it. I honor you for not living what you don't believe. Again... I am sorry that you have experienced what you have. I think you are good, honest, and sincere. I believe that God wants a sincere heart, and to live what you don't believe is insulting to ones own dignity. I think that if you left because you felt the lack of sincerity, you experienced abuse, neglect, or simply that you were not confirmed in the faith, then you are justified in your act. If I had not received what I have, I would be in the same boat you are. But I have received an answer, so for me.. to leave is not acceptable. I must own up and be accountable for what I have been given.
If I could give one tiny smidgen of advice based upon experience. I would say be please watch for pride, hatred, and vengeance in your own disposition. It can cloud judgement and cut one off to more ennobling qualities. And sometimes its hard to detect in ourselves as anything we feel seems so justified. At least that was the case for me.
So there you have it. Again, I am an open book and will debate any issue openly and honestly.
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In reading my comment I realized I did not answer your questions directed to me. Am I bad? Sorry. I was just saying whatever came to mind. But I do have perpectives on your question, and I wll give them to you. I just askes Sam on another post... Am I welcome here? Do you even want my comments or should I just go away.... As I read I realized I am the only one posting who is Pro Church, So I dont know if you want to debate or just support eachother in your opposition to the Church.
So true the statement, "they can leave the church, but cannot leave the church alone. To wipe the face of the earth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints is to wipe it of all the good it does for people accross the world. A trauma for which you, in part, could be held responsible for. Good day.
can you please send me your copy of this video, it has been removed!
taliesin . lothlorien . gaia @ gmail . com
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