Dispute this all you "TBM's" out there!!

Yesterday on the Mormon Recovery Board, see the link on the right hand side, somebody named HTBO, made a great list of things that "TBM's" should have to answer for and have responses to. Link Anyway, some "TBM" took issue with the list in general and not with anything on the list, so I decided to help him out a little by posting some hard core indefensible information, right out of the "Official Church History" volumes and "The Journal of Discourses" and of course asking for an answer. He wanted HTBO to rephrase one of the questions, so I took the liberty of rephrasing it which of course he didn't respond to. He actually didn't respond to a single thing that I said or answer one question that I posted. Maybe he's off researching now like I told him to do and he has discovered the truth. One can only hope, right?

That's why the Church tells "TBM's" to stay away from people like me and places like this and Mormon Recovery or any of the links on my blog, because they may just discover the hoax. That's another reason the Church hates to hold courts with scholars if it can be avoided because they don't want the Stake High Council or maybe even the Stake President discovering the truth. For example in the recent Simon Southerton court, he was forbidden to talk about his book and DNA and the Book of Mormon or the court would be ended immediately. Instead, they went after him for adultery and ended up not being able to prove it, so they just exed him for an "inappropriate relationship". I'm so glad the he is appealing the decision, thus giving the Church more bad publicity. They just expect everyone to bow their head in agreement and fear, even after excommunicating someone. You can see my other post that came from the help of Tal Bachman, regarding this and why we should excommunicate Joseph Smith along with Brigham Young and many others. It's never to late to make things right!!

Anyway, I just wanted to post a few things that I said to the "TBM." If anybody wants to read the whole thing, they can go to Mormon Recovery and look for "dispute this." There were many great responses in the whole thread. By the way, the name of the "TBM" is Jimbob, I think he's the guy from the Waltons....LOL!!


Here is my post #1:

Okay, here is one thing that Brigham Young said and it can't be disputed since it appears in the official Journal of Discourses. There are of course so many things that he said but here is just one. If anyone doesn't believe me, go to your local library and look them up. Also, there is an online link to the Journal of discourses for those that don't live in Utah. I have personally verified the following statement at my local library. Does this statement sound like a Prophet of God or an evil racist?

I welcome any "TBM" to justify the following statement:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

I would love to see how someone justifies this statement without revealing themselves as a complete racist just like Brigham Young. I find this statement to be repugnant and sickening. This talk was made in the Tabernacle,in Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863. He ends the speech with the following words: May God bless everybody that wishes well to his kingdom on the earth. Amen.

This is but one statement of so many that Brigham Young and many others have made for which there is no justification if they were indeed men of God!!

Here is an online version of the Journals of Discourse:

Then of course, right of out Mormon History, volume 6, pages 408-409, I'm looking at it right now, you have Joseph Smith boasting that he is greater than Jesus Christ himself. He said the following:

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.

Then of course on page 411, History of the Church, volume 6, he follows up his boasting with this gem:

Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil, If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors.

So, first, he says he's better than Jesus Christ and then secondly, he denies being a polygamist and this was in 1844. I guess if you are a "TBM" and believe that he was indeed greater than Jesus Christ and either wasn't a polygamist or it was okay to publicly lie about it, then you'll be fine with these statements. These statements are real, were made by Joseph Smith and are word for word. If you don't believe them, go to the Churches bookstore and buy yourself a copy of The History of the Church!! It is online as well and you can buy a copy volumes 1-7 for $59.99 and get educated.

Here is my post #2:

Official Joseph Smith History

18 My object in going to inquire• of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors• were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts• are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments• of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power• thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying• on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother• inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition• and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

So what would the correct questions be?

Does it bother people of other religions that the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith state emphatically that they are the one and only true church on the face of the earth?

Does it bother people from other religions that the Mormons teach that they are "all wrong" and an "abomination" in his sight and "corrupt?"

Are those questions direct enough?

Of course, good ol' Hinckley lies when asked the question by Larry King and responds by saying that we want to take the good they already have and see if we can add to it. BS!! The Mormon Church teaches very clearly that every other religion in the world is false,corrupt and an abomination and this teaching goes back to 1820 in Mormon History. I should know, I taught this version of the First Vision for 2 years and thousands of times on a Mormon Mission. When we say we have the only truth that exists on the earth, we are telling everyone else they are completely screwed. We just tried to do it in a nice way but the meaning is the same!!

Here was Jimbob's response to everything that I said....notice, he doesn't address one thing that is pertinent to what I was saying. He is a typical "TBM". However, what he does discuss or mention, I also take care of in Post #3.

Jimbob's comments:
Perhaps you should flesh the dichotomy between GBH's comment and JS' scripture. I don't see them (at least as you've presented them) as mutually exclusive, let alone lying. Could you clarify?

While you're at it, could you tell me how this is exclusive to Mormon belief? I've never met anyone who believed in their religion, regardless of form, who didn't believe that it was the correct view of God and the universe. Same with Atheists and Agnostics. Everyone who definite views at all on this subject believes that their way of believing and living is the way that God (or the lack thereof) thinks is best. Is it that we actually came out and said it that bothers you?


Post #3

Well, let's see if we can all help Jimbob out!! He seems to be seeking the truth.

Honestly, if you are too programmed or confused and blinded to see the difference between what the "personage" said(Obviously they were twins and Joseph couldn't tell who was the Father and who was the Son) to Joseph vs. what Hinckley said to Larry King, then I guess there is no help for you.

Come on, lets be serious. You see no difference? Really? Let see, Joseph said that the personage said the following; "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

Now lets take a little look at exactly how that conversation went with Larry King:

Larry King: Louisville, Kentucky, with President Hinckley. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, this is Hugh Elgen (ph), and my question is to Mr. Hinckley. If I just read the Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and preach out of it, is that incomplete -- in other words, do I need to read the Book of Mormon and preach it as well, or could I just get by on the Old and New Testament?

Gordon B. Hinckley: As you read the Bible, you will find the statement: "In the mouths of two or more witnesses shall all things be established." That is a biblical statement. The Bible is a witness of the divinity of Christ. The book of Mormon, we assert, is also a witness of the divinity of Christ. And those two, hand-in-hand, become two voices, speaking in declaration of the divinity of the Lord.

Larry King: So you should refer to, and read from three books?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Three books: Old testament, New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

Larry King: That's three books, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes, yes, yes.

Larry King: When someone only preaches the New Testament, are they in error?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don't know they're in error. They're going as far as they feel disposed to go.

Larry King: And the Old Testament as far as they feel disposed to go?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: And you're saying to them, bring your faith with you, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Sure.

Larry King: You're not saying, leave your Catholicism.

Gordon B. Hinckley: I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it.

So lets see, Hinckley doesn't feel that other people in other Churches are in error when they just preach out of the New Testament? Also, he isn't asking them to leave their Church. Really? wow!! They are just going as far as they feel disposed to go, okay, got it.

Just remember, according to Hinckley, they aren't in error at all. Now he says, "I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it."

Let's break that statement down a little bit. We have no animosity toward any other Church, we do not oppose other Churches. Really? Now I'm confused because I could have sworn that the "personage" said, "I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

So either Hinckley was being dishonest and lying or the doctrine from the "personage", that the Church has taught for 175 years including the two on my mission, has changed. Help us out there Jimbob. You see, the problem is that when you don't have the truth or the facts on your side, you are pretty screwed which is where the Mormon Church and apologists like yourself are finding themselves.

Why didn't Hinckley take that opportunity on national TV to confirm to the world what the "personage" said to JS? That all Churches are abominations, wrong and that the preachers are all corrupt. What was he so afraid of? Be honest for once!! Truth is truth right? Why would he chose to cover up the most important part of Joseph's First Vision which in turn led to the Church having to be restored?

I just noticed something that Joseph Smith says after that, he says, When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

Yeah, he found himself lying(literally) and on his back, looking up into heaven.....I just thought that was funny. He forgot the comma, kind of like the Book of Mormon. Personally, I think he must have been completely wasted or drunk when all this happened thus he had no strength and had to lean against the fireplace when he got home. LOL!!

By the way JimBob, I still waiting for your defense of your beloved and worshiped Prophet Brigham Young. Do you agree with his statement that I posted above? I sure hope not!!

Post #4-This is my response from today when somebody named "The Test", thanked me for my first post. I was just going to say your welcome but soon discovered that I had a lot more to say and continue on with the whole theme. I just feel so strongly about the Mormon Churches sins and their apparent refusal to even say that they are sorry. Anyway, here it is:

Hey no problem "Test." I was just getting a little sick of this "TBM" and many others, such as one of my good friends and their stupid arguments that they are making. If you look further down, he responded but not to my questions about what BY and JS said. He only wanted to talk about Hinckley and the more good BS from Larry King. Of course, why would he want to address the "real questions" when there are simply no answers. I have yet to hear any "TBM" or any so called apologist respond to these things. I'm sure somebody has but I just haven't read it yet. I'm going to talk about what BY said, but I find Joseph Smith boasting, right out of "Official Church History" that he is greater than Jesus and not a polygamist to be pretty damning as well. I'll post more about JS some other time.

I actually got my die-hard "TBM" friend to say that would bother him greatly if Joseph Smith actually said that, but he was sure that he didn't and would never say something like that because he was a man of God. I showed him the proof and have yet to hear back from him.What a surprise!!
He's actually convinced that anything negative against the Church has either been forged or changed by an Anti-Mormon and couldn't possibly be true.

He said that he would "actually have to enter into the Churches vault and see it for himself and even then, he couldn't be sure." See what we are dealing with here and what the Church has created? I asked if buying it from Deseret Book might suffice and he then said that, "yeah, that might work." Now, this is a guy with a very open mind, able to talk about anything, except the Church possibly being false. Anyway, like I've said, I have yet to hear back from him. I wish him luck on getting into the vault. According to his "TBM" brother, they won't have a problem letting him in...LOL!! Any member can go there whenever they want to do research.....yeah right!! Anyway, on to what I wanted to talk about.

How could you possibly find a way to justify killing black people if they marry white people and white people for mixing with the seed of Cain. It appears from that statement that he would be justified in killing both people, right? He would have to kill the black and the white for mixing, in order to clean up the situation, you know the whole "blood atonement" thing would kick in, thus justifying the murders and showing others what would happen to them if they did it. It would just be another one of his object lessons which he was know for regarding the "blood atonement."

Also, notice that it was "death on the spot", no questions asked, no trial, nothing, just instant death for mixing with the seed of Cain. Wow!! I mean how could anyone say that this evil racist piece of trash was inspired of God let alone a Prophet chosen of God. He was a vile human being of the worst kind and that's just one statement that BY made.

I could go on all day long with the BS that spewed out of his mouth and over the pulpit in the Salt Lake Tabernacle. There is no question that BY hated black people and he made no secret about it, after all, they were the seed of Cain, a dirty, loathsome people in his eyes and many others in the Church.

But then when you consider that according to the Mormon God, God himself is a complete racist, not allowing blacks to have the Priesthood until 1978, then I guess we can better understand why his Personal oracle, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, would also have to be a racist. After all, God would remove him if he led the people astray. Give me a break!!

Also, along those lines, the Church has never explained why it was that black women couldn't enter into the temple until black men got the Priesthood? Why were they also punished for Cains transgression? What did the black men not being able to have the Priesthood, have to do with them entering the temple? So it wasn't against just black men, it was against all blacks, men and women!! What's up with that? I guess women do get the Priesthood after all? I would love to hear someone ask Hinckley that question....I can hear his response now....."I don't know, I don't know....that's in the past..it was their interpretation.....little flecks of history.....I was just in Africa, we just built a temple there.....the people love us..blah blah blah!!"

Why hasn't the Church ever come out and said, "we are sorry, BY was a Racist." How can they not say they are sorry for all of the racist statements that were made by Prophets and Apostles? Instead, they blame it all on God, it's his fault. It was all in his time, they had no control over what was said or taught or when blacks got the Priesthood. Good thing President Kimball prayed about it, man, can you imagine the Church today banning blacks, it would be a PR nightmare.

Also, it had nothing to do with the people in Brazil that were being baptized and given the Priesthood before the Church found out that they had black heritages from Africa. What would God do if these awful black people entered into his holy house, even if they had 1/10 black blood? I guess it would defile the "House of the Lord." There was just a literal crisis in the Church regarding Brazil and something had to be done and fast!! Can everyone see just how evil and unbelievable these teachings and beliefs were?

They feel like giving the Blacks the Priesthood took care of all past sins regarding the "race" issue but it didn't. Building a new temple in Africa doesn't take away the sting of what BY said. Do you think those Africans waiting in line, that most likely don't have Internet access, know what BY, other Prophets and Apostles have said regarding specifically, "the African race." Not a chance in hell they know!!

They will always be considered a racist Church until they say three simple words, "we are sorry." Is it really that hard? Here's the problem, if they do, they are admitting that BY wasn't inspired along with many others and basically it is a can of worms with long lasting implications that help to prove and show the Church to be a complete uninspired, racist fraud. So, will they ever apologize? The answer is no!! They can't afford to!!

I hope that I'm wrong, the black people from before and now deserve an apology, but I just don't see it happening, ever!! To date, there has only been one black GA/Seventy and he was released in 1995. Here is is profile:

All we have to do is open the Ensign from this past May and look at the GA page. That shows us all we need to know, not one black person, not one. Only in Mormon land could someone find a way to justify racism and blame it all on God. The stupidity and lack of any common sense just goes on and on and on........

Anyway, that was it but I have much more to say about all of these things, so look for many more posts on the lives and times of these two evil and repulsive men that lived nothing by lives of dishonor and lies and justified it all in the name of God!! They are the evil two headed snake that started this whole mess known as Morminism. They were about as inspired as the weeds growing in my garden.