Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Dispute this all you "TBM's" out there!!

Yesterday on the Mormon Recovery Board, see the link on the right hand side, somebody named HTBO, made a great list of things that "TBM's" should have to answer for and have responses to. Link Anyway, some "TBM" took issue with the list in general and not with anything on the list, so I decided to help him out a little by posting some hard core indefensible information, right out of the "Official Church History" volumes and "The Journal of Discourses" and of course asking for an answer. He wanted HTBO to rephrase one of the questions, so I took the liberty of rephrasing it which of course he didn't respond to. He actually didn't respond to a single thing that I said or answer one question that I posted. Maybe he's off researching now like I told him to do and he has discovered the truth. One can only hope, right?

That's why the Church tells "TBM's" to stay away from people like me and places like this and Mormon Recovery or any of the links on my blog, because they may just discover the hoax. That's another reason the Church hates to hold courts with scholars if it can be avoided because they don't want the Stake High Council or maybe even the Stake President discovering the truth. For example in the recent Simon Southerton court, he was forbidden to talk about his book and DNA and the Book of Mormon or the court would be ended immediately. Instead, they went after him for adultery and ended up not being able to prove it, so they just exed him for an "inappropriate relationship". I'm so glad the he is appealing the decision, thus giving the Church more bad publicity. They just expect everyone to bow their head in agreement and fear, even after excommunicating someone. You can see my other post that came from the help of Tal Bachman, regarding this and why we should excommunicate Joseph Smith along with Brigham Young and many others. It's never to late to make things right!!

Anyway, I just wanted to post a few things that I said to the "TBM." If anybody wants to read the whole thing, they can go to Mormon Recovery and look for "dispute this." There were many great responses in the whole thread. By the way, the name of the "TBM" is Jimbob, I think he's the guy from the Waltons....LOL!!

Here is my post #1:

Okay, here is one thing that Brigham Young said and it can't be disputed since it appears in the official Journal of Discourses. There are of course so many things that he said but here is just one. If anyone doesn't believe me, go to your local library and look them up. Also, there is an online link to the Journal of discourses for those that don't live in Utah. I have personally verified the following statement at my local library. Does this statement sound like a Prophet of God or an evil racist?

I welcome any "TBM" to justify the following statement:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

I would love to see how someone justifies this statement without revealing themselves as a complete racist just like Brigham Young. I find this statement to be repugnant and sickening. This talk was made in the Tabernacle,in Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863. He ends the speech with the following words: May God bless everybody that wishes well to his kingdom on the earth. Amen.

This is but one statement of so many that Brigham Young and many others have made for which there is no justification if they were indeed men of God!!

Here is an online version of the Journals of Discourse:

Then of course, right of out Mormon History, volume 6, pages 408-409, I'm looking at it right now, you have Joseph Smith boasting that he is greater than Jesus Christ himself. He said the following:

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.

Then of course on page 411, History of the Church, volume 6, he follows up his boasting with this gem:

Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil, If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors.

So, first, he says he's better than Jesus Christ and then secondly, he denies being a polygamist and this was in 1844. I guess if you are a "TBM" and believe that he was indeed greater than Jesus Christ and either wasn't a polygamist or it was okay to publicly lie about it, then you'll be fine with these statements. These statements are real, were made by Joseph Smith and are word for word. If you don't believe them, go to the Churches bookstore and buy yourself a copy of The History of the Church!! It is online as well and you can buy a copy volumes 1-7 for $59.99 and get educated.

Here is my post #2:

Official Joseph Smith History

18 My object in going to inquire• of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors• were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts• are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments• of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power• thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying• on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother• inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition• and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

So what would the correct questions be?

Does it bother people of other religions that the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith state emphatically that they are the one and only true church on the face of the earth?

Does it bother people from other religions that the Mormons teach that they are "all wrong" and an "abomination" in his sight and "corrupt?"

Are those questions direct enough?

Of course, good ol' Hinckley lies when asked the question by Larry King and responds by saying that we want to take the good they already have and see if we can add to it. BS!! The Mormon Church teaches very clearly that every other religion in the world is false,corrupt and an abomination and this teaching goes back to 1820 in Mormon History. I should know, I taught this version of the First Vision for 2 years and thousands of times on a Mormon Mission. When we say we have the only truth that exists on the earth, we are telling everyone else they are completely screwed. We just tried to do it in a nice way but the meaning is the same!!

Here was Jimbob's response to everything that I said....notice, he doesn't address one thing that is pertinent to what I was saying. He is a typical "TBM". However, what he does discuss or mention, I also take care of in Post #3.

Jimbob's comments:
Perhaps you should flesh the dichotomy between GBH's comment and JS' scripture. I don't see them (at least as you've presented them) as mutually exclusive, let alone lying. Could you clarify?

While you're at it, could you tell me how this is exclusive to Mormon belief? I've never met anyone who believed in their religion, regardless of form, who didn't believe that it was the correct view of God and the universe. Same with Atheists and Agnostics. Everyone who definite views at all on this subject believes that their way of believing and living is the way that God (or the lack thereof) thinks is best. Is it that we actually came out and said it that bothers you?

Post #3

Well, let's see if we can all help Jimbob out!! He seems to be seeking the truth.

Honestly, if you are too programmed or confused and blinded to see the difference between what the "personage" said(Obviously they were twins and Joseph couldn't tell who was the Father and who was the Son) to Joseph vs. what Hinckley said to Larry King, then I guess there is no help for you.

Come on, lets be serious. You see no difference? Really? Let see, Joseph said that the personage said the following; "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

Now lets take a little look at exactly how that conversation went with Larry King:

Larry King: Louisville, Kentucky, with President Hinckley. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, this is Hugh Elgen (ph), and my question is to Mr. Hinckley. If I just read the Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and preach out of it, is that incomplete -- in other words, do I need to read the Book of Mormon and preach it as well, or could I just get by on the Old and New Testament?

Gordon B. Hinckley: As you read the Bible, you will find the statement: "In the mouths of two or more witnesses shall all things be established." That is a biblical statement. The Bible is a witness of the divinity of Christ. The book of Mormon, we assert, is also a witness of the divinity of Christ. And those two, hand-in-hand, become two voices, speaking in declaration of the divinity of the Lord.

Larry King: So you should refer to, and read from three books?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Three books: Old testament, New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

Larry King: That's three books, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes, yes, yes.

Larry King: When someone only preaches the New Testament, are they in error?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don't know they're in error. They're going as far as they feel disposed to go.

Larry King: And the Old Testament as far as they feel disposed to go?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: And you're saying to them, bring your faith with you, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Sure.

Larry King: You're not saying, leave your Catholicism.

Gordon B. Hinckley: I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it.

So lets see, Hinckley doesn't feel that other people in other Churches are in error when they just preach out of the New Testament? Also, he isn't asking them to leave their Church. Really? wow!! They are just going as far as they feel disposed to go, okay, got it.

Just remember, according to Hinckley, they aren't in error at all. Now he says, "I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it."

Let's break that statement down a little bit. We have no animosity toward any other Church, we do not oppose other Churches. Really? Now I'm confused because I could have sworn that the "personage" said, "I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

So either Hinckley was being dishonest and lying or the doctrine from the "personage", that the Church has taught for 175 years including the two on my mission, has changed. Help us out there Jimbob. You see, the problem is that when you don't have the truth or the facts on your side, you are pretty screwed which is where the Mormon Church and apologists like yourself are finding themselves.

Why didn't Hinckley take that opportunity on national TV to confirm to the world what the "personage" said to JS? That all Churches are abominations, wrong and that the preachers are all corrupt. What was he so afraid of? Be honest for once!! Truth is truth right? Why would he chose to cover up the most important part of Joseph's First Vision which in turn led to the Church having to be restored?

I just noticed something that Joseph Smith says after that, he says, When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

Yeah, he found himself lying(literally) and on his back, looking up into heaven.....I just thought that was funny. He forgot the comma, kind of like the Book of Mormon. Personally, I think he must have been completely wasted or drunk when all this happened thus he had no strength and had to lean against the fireplace when he got home. LOL!!

By the way JimBob, I still waiting for your defense of your beloved and worshiped Prophet Brigham Young. Do you agree with his statement that I posted above? I sure hope not!!

Post #4-This is my response from today when somebody named "The Test", thanked me for my first post. I was just going to say your welcome but soon discovered that I had a lot more to say and continue on with the whole theme. I just feel so strongly about the Mormon Churches sins and their apparent refusal to even say that they are sorry. Anyway, here it is:

Hey no problem "Test." I was just getting a little sick of this "TBM" and many others, such as one of my good friends and their stupid arguments that they are making. If you look further down, he responded but not to my questions about what BY and JS said. He only wanted to talk about Hinckley and the more good BS from Larry King. Of course, why would he want to address the "real questions" when there are simply no answers. I have yet to hear any "TBM" or any so called apologist respond to these things. I'm sure somebody has but I just haven't read it yet. I'm going to talk about what BY said, but I find Joseph Smith boasting, right out of "Official Church History" that he is greater than Jesus and not a polygamist to be pretty damning as well. I'll post more about JS some other time.

I actually got my die-hard "TBM" friend to say that would bother him greatly if Joseph Smith actually said that, but he was sure that he didn't and would never say something like that because he was a man of God. I showed him the proof and have yet to hear back from him.What a surprise!!
He's actually convinced that anything negative against the Church has either been forged or changed by an Anti-Mormon and couldn't possibly be true.

He said that he would "actually have to enter into the Churches vault and see it for himself and even then, he couldn't be sure." See what we are dealing with here and what the Church has created? I asked if buying it from Deseret Book might suffice and he then said that, "yeah, that might work." Now, this is a guy with a very open mind, able to talk about anything, except the Church possibly being false. Anyway, like I've said, I have yet to hear back from him. I wish him luck on getting into the vault. According to his "TBM" brother, they won't have a problem letting him in...LOL!! Any member can go there whenever they want to do research.....yeah right!! Anyway, on to what I wanted to talk about.

How could you possibly find a way to justify killing black people if they marry white people and white people for mixing with the seed of Cain. It appears from that statement that he would be justified in killing both people, right? He would have to kill the black and the white for mixing, in order to clean up the situation, you know the whole "blood atonement" thing would kick in, thus justifying the murders and showing others what would happen to them if they did it. It would just be another one of his object lessons which he was know for regarding the "blood atonement."

Also, notice that it was "death on the spot", no questions asked, no trial, nothing, just instant death for mixing with the seed of Cain. Wow!! I mean how could anyone say that this evil racist piece of trash was inspired of God let alone a Prophet chosen of God. He was a vile human being of the worst kind and that's just one statement that BY made.

I could go on all day long with the BS that spewed out of his mouth and over the pulpit in the Salt Lake Tabernacle. There is no question that BY hated black people and he made no secret about it, after all, they were the seed of Cain, a dirty, loathsome people in his eyes and many others in the Church.

But then when you consider that according to the Mormon God, God himself is a complete racist, not allowing blacks to have the Priesthood until 1978, then I guess we can better understand why his Personal oracle, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, would also have to be a racist. After all, God would remove him if he led the people astray. Give me a break!!

Also, along those lines, the Church has never explained why it was that black women couldn't enter into the temple until black men got the Priesthood? Why were they also punished for Cains transgression? What did the black men not being able to have the Priesthood, have to do with them entering the temple? So it wasn't against just black men, it was against all blacks, men and women!! What's up with that? I guess women do get the Priesthood after all? I would love to hear someone ask Hinckley that question....I can hear his response now....."I don't know, I don't know....that's in the past..it was their interpretation.....little flecks of history.....I was just in Africa, we just built a temple there.....the people love us..blah blah blah!!"

Why hasn't the Church ever come out and said, "we are sorry, BY was a Racist." How can they not say they are sorry for all of the racist statements that were made by Prophets and Apostles? Instead, they blame it all on God, it's his fault. It was all in his time, they had no control over what was said or taught or when blacks got the Priesthood. Good thing President Kimball prayed about it, man, can you imagine the Church today banning blacks, it would be a PR nightmare.

Also, it had nothing to do with the people in Brazil that were being baptized and given the Priesthood before the Church found out that they had black heritages from Africa. What would God do if these awful black people entered into his holy house, even if they had 1/10 black blood? I guess it would defile the "House of the Lord." There was just a literal crisis in the Church regarding Brazil and something had to be done and fast!! Can everyone see just how evil and unbelievable these teachings and beliefs were?

They feel like giving the Blacks the Priesthood took care of all past sins regarding the "race" issue but it didn't. Building a new temple in Africa doesn't take away the sting of what BY said. Do you think those Africans waiting in line, that most likely don't have Internet access, know what BY, other Prophets and Apostles have said regarding specifically, "the African race." Not a chance in hell they know!!

They will always be considered a racist Church until they say three simple words, "we are sorry." Is it really that hard? Here's the problem, if they do, they are admitting that BY wasn't inspired along with many others and basically it is a can of worms with long lasting implications that help to prove and show the Church to be a complete uninspired, racist fraud. So, will they ever apologize? The answer is no!! They can't afford to!!

I hope that I'm wrong, the black people from before and now deserve an apology, but I just don't see it happening, ever!! To date, there has only been one black GA/Seventy and he was released in 1995. Here is is profile:

All we have to do is open the Ensign from this past May and look at the GA page. That shows us all we need to know, not one black person, not one. Only in Mormon land could someone find a way to justify racism and blame it all on God. The stupidity and lack of any common sense just goes on and on and on........

Anyway, that was it but I have much more to say about all of these things, so look for many more posts on the lives and times of these two evil and repulsive men that lived nothing by lives of dishonor and lies and justified it all in the name of God!! They are the evil two headed snake that started this whole mess known as Morminism. They were about as inspired as the weeds growing in my garden.

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At Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Perhaps when you want to have a discussion with me, you should inform me instead of letting me stumble across your site several months later. I do appreciate the personal insults, though, and have found your straw-man arguments illuminating. Apparently civility is something you reserve for those who agree with you.

Also, let me give you a few tips that would help me to want to respond. If every post is a rambling manifesto (and they are), I'm not going to even read them to find out what I disagree with. That was my real problem with this post. I (at best) skimmed it because I don't have several hours to read your disorganized views on whatever Mormon malady you're excoriating.

Secondly, the overuse of exclamation points tends to send one of two messages: either you don't know how to use them, or you're easily excitable (i.e., conspiracy theorist). That goes double for when you use two at a time on a frequent basis.


At Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:21:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Jimbob!!

You are alive and still a TBM!! Congrats pal, I hope you are happy in your little cult. Did you make it down to Provo for the ground breaking of the new Gordon B. Hinckley visitors center? Did you get goosebumps when Hinckley dug into the dirt for the first time, with that celestial shovel? Wasn't it amazing? I had tears of Joy, streaming down my face, to be able to see such a wonderful and powerful event!! He was so inspired and he just knew exactly where to dig!! My bosom nearly exploded, as I felt so much joy!! LOL!!

Thankfully, he's agreed to donate that "special, inspired shovel", that touched a Prophet's hands, to BYU, so that they can display it for everyone to see. So you can still go see it Jimbob, if you happened to miss out on that great event.

Also, if you donate to the building, they'll put your name on a brick, so that everyone will know that Jimbob donated...isn't that awesome?!! LOL!!


Perhaps when you want to have a discussion with me, you should inform me instead of letting me stumble across your site several months later. I do appreciate the personal insults, though, and have found your straw-man arguments illuminating. Apparently civility is something you reserve for those who agree with you.

Jimbob, this is my blog and I can post anything I want on it, including your absurd and ridiculous opinions and comments. Just a memo; I don't have to get your approval, to express an opinion on your comments....just in case you didn't already know that. Do you live in the USA?

Also, I reserve civility for those that have a brain and for those that have the ability to debate the issues with logic and clarity, instead of a burning bosom.

Lastly, I don't give a damn what your opinion of me, my blog or my arguments against Mormonism are. If you don't like it, don't agree with it, don't read it!! Pretty simple isn't it?

Also, let me give you a few tips that would help me to want to respond. If every post is a rambling manifesto (and they are), I'm not going to even read them to find out what I disagree with. That was my real problem with this post. I (at best) skimmed it because I don't have several hours to read your disorganized views on whatever Mormon malady you're excoriating.

Oh, gee, thanks so much for your unsolicited tips!!!! Like I give a damn what you think or how you think I should write my blog? Are you kidding me?

I also don't care even a little bit, if you respond, so don't flatter yourself there Jimbob.

The real reason you don't want to read all of this post or any other posts of mine, is because you are obviously incapable of doing so and have a very small attention span.

It's probably your burning bosom too, as you don't want the burning to decrease too much as you read and learn the truth about your cult that masquerades as a Church of Jesus Christ.

Also, If it would really take you "several hours", to read this one post, then you have serious reading comprehension issues and should go get some help, seriously and I'm sorry for your problems.

Secondly, the overuse of exclamation points tends to send one of two messages: either you don't know how to use them, or you're easily excitable (i.e., conspiracy theorist). That goes double for when you use two at a time on a frequent basis.


Yeah...LOL....I think I just saw you fly by my house, right through the backyard, in a little black helicopter. Was that you Jimbob? Are you tapping my phone lines? Was that the Loch Ness Monster with you in the passenger seat?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, let's see.....the exclamation points bother you?!!!!!!! Okay, how about this?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Get a life Jimbob and get out of that cult and quit defending an evil organization that destroys families and individuals every single day. Quit being complicit in their crimes against humanity!!

Quit defending Hinckley and his gang of thugs, who want to rob the poor, and take gold fillings out of poor people's mouths, in order to build up their stock portfolio, all in the name of their/your God.

There is help available for people like yourself, so go seek it out before it's too late. Bow your head and say yes, then go down and report back!!

Also, thanks again for not addressing one thing I said!! You must be buddies with Daniel Peterson or aspire to be like him. I think you are making great progress, so keep up the great work!! Remember, the key is to always attack the messenger and not his message.....and you are doing a fantastic job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take care dude,



At Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I assume you know you're proving my points, right? Is that on purpose?

Tell me Sam, what do you think it means about you that you can't have a civil conversation with those you don't agree with? I don't mean to presuppose anything about you, but I would guess that that inability has to be creating some real difficulties in your personal life. Am I wrong? I sure hope I am.


At Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:57:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Jimbob,

I just knew you'd respond, because you can't help yourself...you TBM Apologist....LOL!! Hey, go ahead bro, start the civil conversation, by dealing directly with and answering my questions and points, in this very post. That would be a great place to start.

I just think that you're an idiot and I don't give much time to idiots. Of course, you could prove me wrong and quit commenting all about me and actually address something I've said, that is related to the Church. Is that too much to ask?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't have hours to read this post...I mean, I'd even be willing to record it for you and Email you the audio, if you aren't capable of reading in 10 minutes or so...just let me know, okay?

My experience over in RFM with you and seeing how you responded to others, showed me what an arrogant idiot you are, so go ahead there buddy, start off the civil conversation.

Hey, I've gotta good conversation starter, that shouldn't be too hard; are blacks the seed of Cain and should they be killed on the spot, if they mix their seed with the white man? Brigham Young said, "this will always be so."

So, you tell me Jimbob, what is your TBM opinion on that one? I'll look forward to your response, that is if you even have one.

Again, I don't care what you think of me, my style, what I write, etc, because quite frankly, I haven't thought of you once since I wrote this post and I've got bigger fish to fry. You are just a little fleck of history in my blog,(Did you get that reference?), but I'm so glad that you found yourself in my blog and felt inspired to engage me...LOL!!

If you have nothing intelligent to say or debate, please refrain from further comments, because you are just wasting my time and yours, not to mention my precious blog space.

Talk to you soon and goodnight Jimbob,


At Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm willing to seriously engage you Sam, when I think I can do so without having to subject myself to your mindless name calling. If you either apologize or promise me you can refrain from ad hominem in the future, I'm game. (I actually don't think you have the ability to write "persuasively" without resort to such tactics, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.)

Should you take me up on that offer, I'd also ask you to state whatever issue you have succinctly so I don't have to read through your lengthy thought process.

At Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:18:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Well, I'm not gonna apologize to you, because I have nothing to apologize for, so I guess the gig is up eh?

Let's see, you said that my arguments are, "straw-man arguments", that my posts are "rambling manifestos" and that I have "disorganized views on whatever Mormon malady you're excoriating."

You then dive into the whole exclamation point issue that you have, and wonder out loud, if I'm "easily excitable, too stupid to know how to use them, or possibly a "conspiracy theorist." Oops, that wouldn't be an example of mindless name calling or a fallacious ad hominem attack, based on no facts, would it?

Practice what you demand and preach Mr. TBMer. Oh yeah, I won't promise that I won't resort to more necessary name calling either, because it may just be necessary. Again, why should I care what you have to say?

Then you presuppose, that just because I can't have civil conversation with you, that this "inability has to be creating some real difficulties in your personal life." Wow, another damn ad hominem, when you don't even know me a little bit and won't even read my blog.

I'd say that we are pretty even on the ad hominem attacks, wouldn't you? Or, are you just another hypocritical TBM Apologist, which is very typical.

So, speaking of Mindless name calling and presuppositions, based on no fact whatsoever, well, you are at the head of the line buddy, so show me the way. At least my ad hominems were based on facts and personal experience with you.

So, grow a tougher skin there Mr. TBMer and grow up. I engage TBMS all the time and have corresponded with countless TBMS, with whom I've had very cordial debate, based on the issues. They didn't act like arrogant, holier than thou jerks like you do.

It is you Mr. die-hard TBM apologist, that has the inability to deal with one single issue, as you continue down the personal avenue, which is much easier for you, because you don't have to deal with any of the issues, lies and deceit, of your pathetic mind-numbing, brainwashing cult.

If you don't have the ability to read my post, and comprehend anything I've said, I can't and won't help you. I even offered to read the post and Email the audio to you, to help you wrap your TBM brain around the things I've said. I even pulled out one thing from the post in my last comment, that obviously blew all of your circuits to smithereens, or so it appears.

The bottom line: you've had three shots already to leave something of substance and you struck out Mr. TBMer and I'm moving on. Your reading comprehension is zero and I don't have time to waste you, when so many, need so much help and truly appreciate what I do.

My podcasts are each downloaded between 700-1000 times or more...I get over 200 hits a day on my blogs and I get over 100 emails a week, mostly from people thanking me for helping them.

So, once again TBM JIMboob, as you can see I just don't have time for you and your pathetic attempt to dodge every single thing I've mentioned in this post, 10 months ago and now, and I couldn't care less what your opinions are anyway, especially at this point.

Also, what is so amazing and yet pathetic about you, is that almost every word of this post, that was directed toward you, came right off of RFM, word for word, which you had to have read last August.(You would know this of course, if you had the ability to read it and comprehend it.)

At the beginning of your first message, you said:

"Perhaps when you want to have a discussion with me, you should inform me instead of letting me stumble across your site several months later. I do appreciate the personal insults, though, and have found your straw-man arguments illuminating. Apparently civility is something you reserve for those who agree with you."

Okay, first of all, you did know about the conversation, because you were in RFM, unless that was some other TBM named Jimbob and you were the one that stopped responding.

The personal insults, were also right there, in my posts on RFM, so it shouldn't have come as any surprise, when you "stumbled across them several months later." You should really get your amnesia and/or reading comprehension checked out.

You say that you don't have time to read my blog, well, I don't have time for your endless, meaningless drivel. Just go back to your cult, it might be ward temple night, and continue on Mr. TBM.

Best wishes in your TBM sunset and celestial, God filled world to come(along with your polygamous wives and endless spirit babies), as I'm moving on to something worthwhile, and worthy of my time, which you most certainly are not!!!!!!!!!


At Friday, June 30, 2006 8:23:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


(1) I'm not sure you understand what ad hominem is. I haven't yet used it.

(2) I've never called you any names. I've intimated that I find your arguments lacking, but I've yet to call you "stupid," as you erroneously point out above. I wish the same could be said for you.

(3) I have yet to engage in apologetics, Sam, and I'm not sure why you keep saying I have. RfM doesn't allow it (presumably because everyone there is "recovering") and I've not done so here because your vitriol seems to be hindering any meaningful discussion.

I'm sorry things ended this way, Sam. I'm sorry you can't agree not to call me names. I hope things get emotionally easier for you down the road.

At Friday, December 01, 2006 10:30:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have found a very interesting comment about Joseph Smith and the Piesthood. The priesthood was denied to Cain and any of his seed. (according to J.S.) the Blood of Cain came through the flood with Hams wife Egytus who was of the seed of Cain. Joseph who was sold into Egypt and married Asenath the daughter of an Egyptian priest, he had two sons Ephraim and Manasseh (Genesis 41), so if Ham's children were of the seed of Cain and could not have the priesthood, so were Joseph's sons. RIGHT?? J. Smith said " I am a direct descendant of Joseph through his son Ephraim" HELLO!!
does that not mean that J.S. was also of the seed of Cain??
are you laughing yet?
ex mormon Heike in Australia

At Saturday, December 02, 2006 4:14:00 AM, Anonymous Snow said...

"I welcome any "TBM" to justify the following statement:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110)."

What kind of kindergarden challenge is that?

What there to justitfy. BY had an opinion. So what. Obviously you have opinions also... not particulary educated or honest but you have them. I don't see you justifying your statments.

At Saturday, January 13, 2007 6:46:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

"What kind of kindergarten challenge is that?

What there to justitfy. BY had an opinion. So what. Obviously you have opinions also... not particulary educated or honest but you have them. I don't see you justifying your statments."

Well, it's a pretty damn good one I'd say and one that your not capable of disputing. I guess you must still be in pre-school and not up to the kindergarten level of discussion yet?

Now, here's the funny, but pathetic part, DUMBASS; you criticize my opinions as "not educated or honest", but you defend Brigham Young's ABSOLUTELY RACIST OPINIONS AS ACCEPTABLE AND NO BIG DEAL AND SAY "BY had an opinion. So what."

You are a pathetic, scumbag, racist human being if his racist comments don't bother you. I'd like to know what type of opinion would bother you? Nothing? All you know is "the church is true" and that's all that matters.

You make the world a worse place to live, with your opinions and are no better than Brigham Young and probably would have helped him carry out those executions.

Also, they weren't just "opinions" idiot, but teachings and doctrines, many preached from the pulpit of the Tabernacle during "official church meetings", even General conferences and they've never been repudiated or apologized for, by any other Prophets since Brigham Young.

Again, this is one of the many racist things that Brigham Young said and taught as doctrine:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO."

Even if they were just opinions, it is appalling that your attitude and response are "so what." Also, might I point out that BY said "this will always be so" and so I ask, "is it still that way today." Thank the Mor(m)on God no. So, not only was it racist, but a false Prophesy as well, since it isn't so today. OOPS!!

I'm just wondering Snow; do you have any friends in the KKK or have you thought of joining? Hell you could be running the show in no time with people like BY as your personal hero.

I'm sure you loved Boyd K(little factory is leaking) Packer's teachings and those of Spencer "scumbag" Kimball regarding how wrong interracial marriages are as well, right? Well, they're only wrong if you aren't a GA, which Packer says are "the exceptions", due to their "revelation" and knowledge of life, etc.

Do you believe in keeping the white man pure and only breading with each other you pathetic piece of trash? If this is what Mormonism has taught you and raised you to be, which is an insensitive, arrogant racist; then you are just another example of the rotten fruit of Mormonism and you, are rotten to the core.

I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for racists and think that they are some of the lowest forms of life on the planet earth!!

Hope to hear back from you soon and let it snow, let it snow, let is snow,


At Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:56:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Samuel,

As I read your blog posts I feel your pain man.

And it surprises and disgusts me that people ("members of the church" as they say) can't see what you're really trying to say here. And are instead being very insensitive.

I can't help but wonder if they would act like this in Quorum meetings (if that's what they still called).

And Jimbob I couldn't help but notice you get all personal. And it seemed like you danced around the issues and try to lose Ssamuel in a sea of words - some of them 'big'.

Listen: trying going over D&C 121 where it talks about not using the priesthood in any degree of unrighteousness and then do some soul-searching and make some attitude adjustments...

Try not to take things so personally man.

Instead look beneath the emotional 'surface' of what our brother IN CHRIST is expressing and peer deeper into what's really going on with him man.

And one more thing...

If you can't answer the issue directly than just say so. Quit trying to dance around the fact that you don't have any answers if that's the case.

There's no shame in true humility. Literally.

And now to you my brother (Samuel):

These are the true issues from what I can see:

1) You've been badly hurt on a very PERSONAL level.

2) You need closure on this racist issue.

And I don't blame you one iota.

Can I offer a few thoughts?

But before I do...

...I want to state that I am no longer a "Mormon" either BUT...

This was not due to ANYTHING I read about Joseph Smith or any church history. Instead it was due to MY "church history".

You see I was sick and tired of going through the motions and just been plain false about my worhsip and relationship with heavenly Father and the Lord.

I new that this was what I wanted more than anything else: To serve him for REAL.

No more "weekend warrior" games, no more false fronts.

To do this I decided on a clean slate. Part of that involved leaving my country of origin. And in the process I became a Christian. Again not because of anything Joseph Smith and co. did or didn't do.

It was purely my choice and it was based on many personal "spiritual experiences" and events that I could not deny and that most Mormons would think are reserved for the GA's.

Not so. I can assure you that.

(Nothing we can do or not do can precipitate the Lords Own Sovereign Will - I learnt he doesn't choose you on merit... otherwise Jesus wouldn't have been necessary - that alone ought to put any self-righteous twirp in their place. But we know pharisees will always exist so long as Spiritual Babylon is alive and well).

okay so after that, I promise now to get to my thoughts on the issues at hand:

1) Samuel, I wish these things were never said regardless of whether or not they were a personal opinion or as a prophetic utterance. And I hate to think of how I'd feel if such things were said about my race.

Yes, it would hurt AND piss me off.

2) The curse of Cain. Hmmm...

Taking this from an objective POV would this curse fall under the same curse that Adam incurred on the human race?

Galations 3:13 says that we are no longer under the curse of the law. That's nearing on 2000 years ago now.
So woudl this mean that Cains curse was lifted too?

I'll put it another way:

Was his crime paid for by the Atonement of Christ?

If it was then the curse that accompanied it would have been lifted too right? Just like Adams transgression and the accompanying curse. True?

So the question is: Was Cains transgression/sin Atoned for?

On this hangs the issue folks.

If it didn't then can we safely say that the Atonement of Christ was INADEQUATE?


Was/is it all-encompassing?

If it is all-encompassing then by definition IT covers Cains Sin and therefore the doctrine was false from the beginning.

Food for thought indeed don't you think?

Dude, I have grown in a racist society though they're not openly so. And it has scared me but nowadays I just look at myself as a son of God.


Racist individuals in my estimation have self-esteem issues. That's what the superiority complex is all about.

And regarding getting an apology from the church...

If you think about it (and I'm sure you have) they've got a reputation to uphold. If that goes so too does everything else (need I spout off a list of what that is? I think we all know).

If they do apologize it will encourage other disgruntled portions of the ex-member and Mormon trasher groups to come out of the woodwork with their demans too.

They have to maintain control of the situation otherwise it wqill get out of hand. If you were in that position [right or wrong] wouldn't you do the same?

The words "damage control" "image management" come to mind.

Peace out.
Brother Paul.

At Monday, February 04, 2008 9:08:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alma 24: 30
30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

At Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:53:00 AM, Blogger chessman102 said...

This comment is for sam, It seems that you have a lot of info on the journal of discourses, and also church history.
As we all know brigham young taught the practice of blood atonement. (sins so great that they can only be paid for in blood, or rather death). It is my understanding that one of brigham youngs wive's had an affair with another man in town, and brigham young made that man repent by means of blood atonement. Or in my mind he murdered the man for sleeping with his wife.
I obviously can't verify this information because I don't know names. I was curious if you could tell me whether this story is true or false, or whether you have heard it before.

any information you can give me on the subject would be greatly appreciated.
thanking you in advance


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