Tuesday, November 22, 2005

In The Mormon's First Vision, Jesus Told Joseph Smith, That All Other Churches Were False, Their Creeds An Abomination And Forbade Him To Join Them!

A few days ago, I wrote a response to a post that was written by John Dehlin, on his Mormon Stories site. I have to admit that I was a little critical of John D, following his 3 part interview with John Lynch, the FAIR Apologist, that is anything but FAIR, pun intended. Anyway, up until that point, I actually enjoyed John's podcasts and I really appreciated his attempt to try to explain all of the issues that the Mormon Church either lies about or tries to cover up. I talked about all of this at the beginning of podcast #3-Joseph Smith. What I really appreciated above anything else, was John's ability to ask the great, very difficult questions. I had just felt that with John Lynch, he wasn't tough enough. I then went on John's blog, regarding Podcast #1 with Lynch, and called John Lynch a "loser." Everybody freaked out and the focus became on the fact that I called him a "loser", and nobody wanted to discuss the substance of my remarks and his behavior that week on RFM, where he blatantly lied and deceived everyone.

Let me re-post part of my apology on calling John Lynch a loser. I said, "I suppose dishonest, lack of integrity and deceitful would have stood on their own and been powerful enough without having to use the term 'loser.' So, let me say this, based on his activities this past week over at RFM and with Steve Benson, John Lynch proved to many to be dishonest, lack integrity and was very deceitful."

Anyway, John Dehlin and I have been Emailing each other and he pointed out to me that
he wasn't hard on Hyrum either, from the Church is not true, when he did his podcast with him. He was right, but, in my opinion, he did have the tendency to more easily agree with John Lynch, since John Lynch's explanations and ideas, were more closely related to what John Dehlin is thinking. But I do have to admit, that he was fair and respectful to both of them, which I do appreciate.

The bottom line, is that it doesn't matter. There are people out there clinging to hope and the Mormon Church and he is simply trying to help them. John Dehlin, is a great guy, just trying to be an honest, fair guy and he has his audience of people that need what he is doing. I have my audience that needs what I'm doing and we are in agreement on that aspect. At least, both John and I agree, that the Mormon Church has massive problems with it's history and isn't being honest with its membership regarding these issues or dealing with them properly. That is a start, right? I have more in common with John Dehlin, than any die-hard TBM or the Mormon Hierarchy, that's for sure. In that sense, we are on the same side. If only the Mormon Church could have John's honesty, but don't hold your breath, it will never happen.

The main thing that I do respect about John, is his honesty. At least he is trying to be honest, bring up all of the problems in Mormon History and discuss them openly and frankly. That is more than anyone will ever get from the Mormon Cult Hierarchy, so kudos to John Dehlin for his efforts. Even though he is trying to help the Church, I'm sure that those cult leaders in Salt Lake City, especially Hinckley, can't be to happy about a show like John Dehlin's. John Dehlin is still an active member of the Church but trying to do things right, so I respect him greatly for that. The Mormon Church wants nothing to do with in-depth discussion and debate regarding their ugly skeletons that fill their closet. They run and hide, while lying and denying, that is their "modus operandi." Eventually, down the road, I'll be on John's podcast and vice versa. We have the same goals of honesty and helping people, but hope for different end results. But, the bottom line is that we are both helping people that need our particular brand of help and there is plenty of room and people for both of us.

I'm guessing, from what I know of him and his show, that he wants to help people to be able to stay in the Church and find ways to accept all of the problematic things in Mormon History. The difference between us is that I want to help people either discover the Mormon fraud, or to cope with what they've already discovered and help them either out of the Mormon repressive cult, or to be able to deal better with the fact that they've already left after being lied to their entire life. I don't encourage anyone to stay in the Mormon Cult and want to expose the truth to the world, but not to help them to accept it, but to reject it and move on with their lives and to escape the Mormon cult and free their minds and spirits. I want people to be able to free their minds from the mind-control and brainwashing that goes on in the Mormon Church from the time we are little kids, singing, "we thank thee o God for a Prophet."

Now, with that being said, John Dehlin, posted a great comment the other day that evoked a very strong response from me. I wanted to share this response with you guys, along with the comment from John Dehlin. I felt that his comment was brutally honest and to the point, along with being 100% on the money. As I mentioned in the Title of this post, it has to do with the Mormon Church claiming, that they are the one and only true Church on the face of the earth. This is a subject that I have touched on, several times, here on my blog, but my thoughts on this matter over the last 6 months go much deeper than what I've expressed.

So, here was John Dehlin's comment, followed by mine. I hope that John doesn't mind me sharing his comments with "Mormon Truth" readers. For an active member of the Church to express what he did, is risky and what the Church would consider, "out of line." I respect him for putting himself out there like he did. It's interesting though, the comments that John made, are things that maybe someone in the Church Hierarchy could say, but not a common member. Again, it's all part of the hypocrisy of "do what I say, not what I do", mentality of the Mormon Church. Here are the comments. I sincerely hope that John doesn't get himself in trouble by stating such, what they would consider to be, blasphemous words, that are in direct contradiction of official Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin's comment:

False Dichotomies: The worst our church has to offer?November 16, 2005 on 12:11 pm In Mormon, LDS, Mormon Stories, Mormon Culture, Blog Post

My sister just pointed me to
this article by Joseph Fielding McConkie entitled: “Two Churches Only”.

While I can’t argue technically or doctrinally with anything Bro. McConkie writes, I have always felt that this type of “false dichotomy” represents the worst thinking and teaching our church has to offer.

For some reason it reminds me of the immature college football player who runs up to the camera on New Year’s Day after scoring a touchdown and shouts “We’re number 1″ with his index finger thrust forward….or the rabid fan that shouts “You all suck” to the opponents as they run onto the playing field at the beginning of the game.

I know this is strong language for me to use….but I believe that Brother McConkie’s article represents the worst writing and thinking our church has to offer the world today. What does it say about God that He would create “one true church”, and then only allow 1/2 of 1% of His children to have access to it within their lifetimes? There must be more to the eternal plan than this, or frankly, God isn’t the type of god I’m interested in worshiping. It MUST be that God has incorporated other faiths into His overall plan in some meaningful, important way–that makes calling them all an “abomination” or “of the devil” not quite accurate…and even sickeningly wrong and disrespectful.

I know the scriptures easily support Brother McConkie’s interpretation…but the scriptures leave open
LOTS of room for interpretations that may not necessarily be righteous (killing is ok at times, wine is ok, multiple wives is both good and bad, women should keep silent in the church, etc.). (On the video clip, fast forward to time code 9:00 for the fast version)
To me, the plan is much broader, and much nobler than what Brother McConkie outlines in this article. To me, this type of writing only engenders pride, and complacency, and arrogance on the part of members….and does NOTHING to help bring people closer to our church.

A wise man once said that “Not all things that are true are useful”. While I’m not sure I’d apply this to the way we teach church history, I’d certainly apply it to this notion of “Two churches–the one and only true franchise vs. the Church of Satan”–and I guess I’d even question whether it’s really true. God is smarter, and more loving than this oversimplified dichotomy.

Just my opinion.

John Dehlin

My response to John Dehlin's comments:

John,

I know I said that I wasn’t going to post anymore on your site, in my last Email to you, but I just have to thank you publicly for your honesty and straightforwardness on this particular subject. When I read this post, I about fell off my chair. This post sparked a fire within me and I had to respond and give my points of view. I’ve been pondering this exact subject for the last 6 months.

I have tremendous respect for you John and give you huge kudos for being able to be frank, candid and honest, regarding this matter, knowing that it must be very difficult for you to deal with and accept.

I agree 100% with everything that you’ve said regarding this “one and only true church” teaching and we are on some very common ground in this instance. It is indeed very strong language for you John, as you usually try to defend these types of things and teachings or find either a rational or acceptable explanation for them. To flat out say it is wrong, is a big thing for you, I’m sure.

I was stunned when I first read your post and wondered if you had even written it, since you hadn’t signed your name. Now I know that you did write it, so that’s why I’m responding. Now onto the subject matter at hand.

The problem is, that you can’t be a good, temple going member of the Church, if you don’t believe this “one and only”teaching, you just can’t. We taught it for two years on our mission. Everything that the Church stands for, from baptism, to the temples and everything in between, demands that one accept this premise.

It is required!! If this premise isn’t true, then the entire premise of the Mormon Church, along with the importance of it’s teachings, temples, etc, go right out the window and are rendered meaningless. Let me state a few examples to support this point of view.

To reject this teaching, requires one to have to reject the divine authenticity of The Book of Mormon, therefore, rejecting Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God. Don’t worry everyone, I’m going to support these points too, just give me a minute. It also requires us to reject the First Vision and the words that Jesus supposedly spoke to Joseph Smith. Again, if these words straight from Jesus’ mouth are false, then everything crumbles.

So, if The Book of Mormon isn’t divine, Joseph Smith isn’t a Prophet and the words from the First Vision can’t be accepted, what do you have left to believe in? What would be the point to continue on in the Mormon Church?

Aren’t those things the entire foundation of the Mormon Church? What does the Church have without all of that to stand on? They have nothing!! I’ll give you some quotes at the end to also support this.

If the entire foundation of the Mormon Church is questionable or false, that it stands to reason that the Mormon Church is obviously false as well. It’s pretty simple isn’t it? You can’t have a “true Church” when the BOM, D&C, First Vision and Joseph Smith are all false, right? It’s just common sense.

Joseph Smith History specifically says, starting in verse 18… “I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors• were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts• are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments• of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power• thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;

So, “they were all wrong”, “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight”, “those professors• were all corrupt” and he “forbade me to join with any of them, etc, etc.”

Then, let me remind everyone of the following verses from the BOM and D&C:

1 Ne. 14: 10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two• churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other• is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso• belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore• of all the earth.

D&C 18: 20
20 Contend• against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

GS Devil
The church of the devil: Every evil and worldly organization on earth that perverts the pure and perfect gospel and fights against the Lamb of God.

GS Devil
The devil founded the great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13: 6 (1 Ne. 14: 9). There are only two churches, one of the Lamb of God and one of the devil, 1 Ne. 14: 10 (Alma 5: 39). Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil, D&C 18: 20. The great and abominable church shall be cast down, D&C 29: 21.

">LINK TO THE QUOTES

I know that I’m simply stating the obvious, things that most everyone here is probably already familiar with, but to me, it is just so clear and so important to fully understand these verses. Either these things are true or they aren’t. There is no ambiguity, no gray area, as taught by Hinckley himself. These things are clearly stated and there is no other interpretation in my opinion.

Just the word “restoration”, or the phrase “restored gospel”, clearly states the idea that there is no other true Church. It clearly gives one the idea that the Mormon Church is “the one and only true, restored Church on the earth”, doesn’t it? That the Mormon Church is the only Church that has the “authority of God” to act or “the authority to act in the name of God.” .

Again, we taught that on our missions in the very first discussion. We were taught and trained to teach it as the missionary discussions were “inspired” directly from God. At least that was always my understanding and what I believed. When the discussions changed in the mid-80’s, those changes came from God, through his Prophet.

Remember now, it is the “divinely inspired” Book of Mormon, “the most correct book on the earth”, that refers to the Church of the Devil and the Mother of harlots, Mother of abominations and the whore of all the earth”, and this applies to any Church that isn’t the Church of the Lamb of God.

As it clearly states, “Behold there are save two• churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other• is the church of the devil.” This is obviously something that Joseph Smith strongly believed all the way back to the First Vision as I showed above. Again, the BOM, confirms that other Churches are abominations.

Now to further show what I now consider to be incredible arrogance by the Mormon Church, that they are the only ones with “the truth”, I want to share some words from M. Russell Ballard.

I went to a Stake Conference a couple of weeks ago and he had some very arrogant things to say that are very relevant to this conversation.

Now, those true believers out there, do you accept that M. Russell Ballard is a true Apostle of God and that when he speaks in a Stake Conference, he is inspired, or was he just speaking as a man, unless it was something that agreed with your point of view? This is a common argument that I’ve been running into a lot with Friends and Family members. Just something to think about while you read and ponder what he said.

I’m only going to include the pertinent things that apply to this conversation, but he did have some other “words of wisdom” or “tidbits” of insight that he shared with us. I will be doing a post on my blog later tonight regarding these other “tidbits” from Ballard that were rather silly, amazing and never heard of before, as far as I know.”

I think he was re-writing Mormon theology and doctrine once again with some of his remarks that he demanded were true.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand; Ballard made the following statements, “Joseph Smith was chosen before the foundations of the world were laid and he was tutored, prepared and taught for generations.”

He then said, “We as Latter-Day Saints, know more about the purpose of life, who we are, where we came from and were we are going than everybody else on the entire planet and that we know concisely what will happen after this life.”

He then said, point blank, “we, as a people, know more than every other person on this entire earth.” “How and why do we know this”, he asked”? Well, of course, he said it’s because of “Joseph Smith.”

If that doesn’t smack of complete arrogance and “I’m better than everyone else”, I don’t know what does. There was no humility in his words whatsoever. He was boasting about how much we know. This is the attitude that you, John, are talking about in your post.

This attitude is being shared by people like Ballard, who is supposed to be a humble servant/Apostle, of God, isn’t he? He was telling everyone that either we are more blessed than everyone else in the world or just smarter, you decide.

As a “TBM”, I used to eat that stuff up and it made me feel good that we knew so much that the rest of the world had no clue about. It confirmed to me that we were indeed, a peculiar people, but a peculiar people with the only truth.

That knowledge gave me a fire to want to share, give two years of my life serving a mission, etc, while trying to convince the rest of the world that they needed to be a Mormon like me in order to be saved.

I felt very bad for those that had their chance, felt the spirit, but then rejected it because they couldn’t stop smoking or drinking, etc. I hoped that they would get another chance, prayed and fasted for them, my soul was tormented, but my understanding was that they would only get one chance, either in this life or the next. I felt that sadly, they may have had their one chance.

But, in short, it drove me to do what the Church wanted me to do, in order to help them complete their mission and goals. My Family and I paid my way, which came to around $10,000, for this wonderful privilege of helping the Church achieve their agenda and goals. Meanwhile, I had to subject myself to Mission Leadership that was much less than honorable or respectful and in some cases, downright abusive.

At least I met some great people that I’ll never forget, learned a new language and learned how to survive in a foreign land/culture, etc. Also, one very important thing that I learned, was all about the very obvious flaws that exist in the Mormon Church that I previously wasn’t familiar with.

I left naive and came home knowing more than I ever wanted to know. Ignorance is indeed bliss, at least in this case.

Now, back to Ballard for a second, let’s keep in mind that M. Russell Ballard is also a direct descendant of Joseph Smith. So, it would make sense to give Joseph Smith all the credit and make him the reason why we are so much more intelligent than all those other poor folks that must be living horrible, miserable lives, without Mormonism to divide them from their Family and Friends, right?

Plus, he also mentioned that “save Jesus only, that Joseph Smith was the most important man that ever lived on the earth, ever, and that he was greater than Moses, Abraham, etc. He was, the greatest Prophet to ever live.”

Now, with all of this said, if the Mormon Church isn’t the “one and only true Church on the face of the earth”, than what the heck is Ballard rambling about? His words simply become incoherent rhetoric, that are completely meaningless.

Let me ask the question, What is the “main” purpose of temples? To do work for the dead, right? Why do we need to do that? Because the Mormon Church is the only true Church on the face of the planet and everyone that has ever lived, needs a Mormon Baptism, initiatory works, a new name, to be endowed and sealed, etc.

If the Mormon Church isn’t indeed the only true Church on the earth, than what is the purpose for temples? Why spend literally hundreds of millions of dollars a year, every year, building structures around the world that in reality, are worthless and meaningless. What a waste of money or is it?

Appearances are everything and even if the Church isn’t growing by leaps and bounds, in order to continue growing at all, it has to have all the appearances of growing by leaps and bounds, right?

If the Mormon Church stopped building temples and even sold a few that aren’t accomplishing hardly a thing, what do you think the membership would think of that? It would be faith demoting, for sure. It would rattle a few people that would wonder what was happening. That’s my opinion.

In many cases, especially this one, perception is reality and that’s what the Mormon Church is “literally” banking on. Of course, what they spend on temples and buildings each year, hardly even touches their bottom line, so why would the Mormon hierarchy care what they are spending.

They are hoping the long term gain of tithe payers, which always spikes in an area where they build a temple, will compensate them for the cost of the temple. In many places, they are finding this not to be the case.

You see, if that premise, that the Mormon Church has banked on since 1820, when Joseph was first supposedly told these words, isn’t true, then everything begins to unravel quickly and crash to the ground.

The Mormon Church can’t exist without this teaching since it is one of their most important, precious beliefs that they have, since it came directly from the lips of Jesus in The First Vision. God the Father and Jesus Christ, spoke directly to Joseph Smith, in the flesh, in the woods, wouldn’t that be extremely important?

So was Jesus lying? Was he speaking in parables? did Joseph here him wrong? Was it written wrong? Was Joseph still shook up from his experience with Satan, right before the First Vision and therefore misunderstood?

Considering that this has been in the official cannon of “Mormon scriptures” for a very long time, plus, with the 2nd witness of this teaching being The Book of Mormon, and also confirmed by the D&C, the answer is obviously no.

Now, a few quotes from Hinckley to give us even greater insight into what would happen to the Church if The Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith were discovered not to be true.

“Do we as Latter-day Saints really understand and appreciate the strength of our position? Among the religions of the world, it is unique and wonderful.”

“We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.”

When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, “Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.”

“That is the way I feel about it. OUR WHOLE STRENGTH RESTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THAT VISION. IT EITHER OCCURRED OR IT DID NOT OCCUR. IF IT DID NOT, THEN THIS WORK IS A FRAUD. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.

“Reflect upon it, my brethren and sisters. For centuries the heavens remained sealed. Good men and women, not a few—really great and wonderful people—tried to correct, strengthen, and improve their systems of worship and their body of doctrine. To them I pay honor and respect. How much better the world is because of their bold action. While I believe their work was inspired, it was not favored with the opening of the heavens, with the appearance of Deity.”

“Upon that unique and wonderful experience stands the validity of this Church.”

“In all of recorded religious history there is nothing to compare with it…”

“It is easy to see why people do not accept this account. It is almost beyond comprehension. And yet it is so reasonable…”

(Even Joseph Smith said that he wouldn’t believe it if he hadn’t lived it. But, we are supposed to believe it, when even Joseph Smith wouldn’t have, had he lived when we now live?)

“I knew a so-called intellectual who said the Church was trapped by its history. My response was that without that history we have nothing. The truth of that unique, singular, and remarkable event is the pivotal substance of our faith…”

Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, 78Loyalty

Finally, the video clip and this quote was shared at the Joseph Smith extravaganza birthday bash, from this past July, in reference to those of us that question the validity of the First Vision.

In Gordon B. Hinkley’s, “My Testimony,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, 51, he said the following:

“I thank my Father in Heaven for the testimony I have of the reality of the First Vision. I have stood among the trees where Joseph knelt as a boy, and heard the whisperings of the Spirit that it happened as he said it happened. I have read the words of critics, who from 1820 until now have tried to destroy the validity of that account. They have made much of the fact that there were SEVERAL versions and that the account as we now have it WAS NOT WRITTEN UNTIL 1838. SO WHAT? I find security for my faith in the simplicity of his narrative, in its lack of argument, in its straightforward reasonableness, and in the fact that he sealed his testimony with his life’s blood. Could there have been a stronger endorsement?”

(We could discuss in another thread why, exactly Joseph died, and what could have been the reasons as to why everyone hated him and wanted him killed. It wasn’t simply to seal his testimony of The Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the first vision with his blood, it goes much, much deeper that that.)

And to attempt to finally wrap up this long post(sorry John for the length), I wanted to include Hinckley’s responses on Larry King, regarding what happens to people, that are “speaking out” like we are right now, or even discussing this kind of stuff, plus, how he feels about other religions. What we are all doing in this forum, is not allowed or encouraged by the Church.

It’s kind of like when people used to have study groups in their homes, well, the Church put a quick kibosh on that, while officially outlawing them, didn’t they? Be warned, the same thing is coming for the Internet. The problem is, that it’s impossible to control over the Internet.

However, for anyone that has anything they are questioning and wants to remain in the Church, I wouldn’t suggest using your real name on here or any forum, if you have any intention of not being disciplined and punished.

Now, while we are on the subject, back to Hinckley on Larry King…..

Larry King: Are people ever thrown out of your church?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: For?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Doing what they shouldn’t do, preaching false doctrine, speaking out publicly. They can carry all the opinion they wish WITHIN THEIR HEADS, so to speak,BUT IF THEY BEGIN TO TRY TO PERSUADE OTHERS, THEY MAY BE CALLED IN FOR A DISCIPLINARY COUNCIL. We don’t excommunicate many, but we do some. (So much for free agency eh?)

Continued……

Larry King: So you should refer to, and read from three books?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Three books: Old testament, New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

Larry King: That’s three books, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes, yes, yes.

Larry King: When someone only preaches the New Testament, are they in error?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don’t know they’re in error. They’re going as far as they feel disposed to go.

Larry King: And the Old Testament as far as they feel disposed to go?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: And you’re saying to them, bring your faith with you, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Sure.

Larry King: You’re not saying, leave your Catholicism. (Let me jump in here and answer for Hinckley, YES, that is exactly what we are saying!!)

Gordon B. Hinckley: I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it.

(The statements that, ” We do not oppose other churches” or “We never speak negatively of other churches” is disingenuous at the least and a bold faced lie at the worst. All one has to do is read the First Vision or The Book of Mormon, which apparently Hinckley hasn’t done lately. Hopefully he’s taking his own challenge on that.)

Hinckley on Larry King Sept 1998

Well, I lied, one more thing for people to watch and consider, that to me, shows the deception that is currently in play. I told you that I’ve been pondering this exact issue for 6 months now.

Anyways, this is the Stake President that appeared on the Today show a week or so ago. It’s about a 6 minute clip, but toward the end, Matt Lauer, asks Brent Belnap, the SP, a very specific question, about missionary work in developing nations.

He says that “it has been controversial and a lot of people wonder if when the missionaries are preaching to these people, if they are teaching that the Church of Latter-Day Saints is the only path to God and salvation or are you presenting it as an alternative?”

Well, guess what Brent Belnap says? You’ve got it, he says that it is more of an alternative and that people are free to choose, just like other Churches. Again, he is either lying, being disingenuous or not familiar with official Church doctrines, including the First Vision and The Book of Mormon. I don’t know why I continue to be surprised, but this one really surprised me, once again.

While it is true that people can choose, he certainly neglects explaining the dire consequences of not choosing the Mormon Church. We are talking about someone’s salvation and Eternal Life, aren’t we? What happens to someone that has the chance to choose the Mormon’s and doesn’t? That’s another topic that deserves it’s own thread.

If Mormonism is now just an alternative religion and place were people can simply add to the good they already have, I would say that things have changed dramatically and that they are throwing out The First Vision, Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon.

I would suggest that people start saving themselves 10% of their income on this alternative and free up their time for Family or a hobby or something. After all, if it isn’t that big of a deal anymore, then we should treat it as such.

He also didn’t take the opportunity to be honest and say, that he, and the Mormon Hierarchy, going all the way back to Joseph Smith, believe that they are the only true Church on the earth and that all of the other Churches are of the devil, Mother’s of harlots and whores of all the earth. I wonder why?

It’s straight out of the most correct, powerful book in the whole world with the “fullness” of the Gospel. He didn’t mention that all of the other Churches are false, their creeds are abominations and their preachers are corrupt.

Maybe he didn’t say it, because the Mormon Hierarchy doesn’t believe that anymore? Could it be? Are they actually going to go there? Will Mormonism one day just be another mainstream Christian sect? You have to believe that this SP, was prepped for this interview. It wouldn’t be allowed for him to just go on a national talk show, without the Hierarchy knowing about it and preparing him.

Link to the Today Show video

Well, by all intents and appearances, the Mormon Church appears to be going 100% mainstream already. Maybe that would also help explain their massive efforts in building up their real estate portfolio, while spending Billions of Jesus’ dollars and allowing alcohol to be served in Jesus’ mall?

I guess the response that I would have liked to have heard, wouldn’t have gone over too well. Yet, it is reality and what the Mormon Church really believes, isn’t it? Like Hinckley mentioned as quoted above, “OUR WHOLE STRENGTH RESTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THAT VISION.”

I would expand that to be also, “OUR WHOLE STRENGTH RESTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THAT VISION, INCLUDING WHAT WAS SAID BY JESUS CHRIST TO JOSEPH SMITH, THAT EVERY OTHER CHURCH ON THE EARTH WAS FALSE AND AN ABOMINATION and their Preachers, or Professors(SEE False Prophets) were all corrupt.

It’s pretty obvious to me, that they are heading in a vastly different direction than where they’ve come from, including sacrificing their very core values, in exchange for financial compensation. I would say that yes, they do sell their tokens for money, and lots of it.

Hinckley also said that he, “knew a so-called intellectual who said the Church was trapped by its history. My response was that without that history we have nothing.”

Again, he/they, can’t have it both ways. To once again quote Hinckley, completely “in context” by the way, “Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”

So, according to Hinckley, the Church is not trapped by their history, rather, they embrace it and without it, they have nothing. “THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND!!” EITHER IT’S TRUE OR A FRAUD, ACCORDING TO HINCKLEY.

So, how does the Church, on a regular basis, omit, or not talk about about so many things in their history if they are indeed so proud of it and would be nothing without it?

I beg to differ with that statement. In reality The Church is nothing, when a lot of their history is discovered, discussed and given relevance. That’s the problem. They are running from what they supposedly embrace and can’t live without.

Well, I lied again, I just had a couple of other quotes pop into my head from a BYU Professor. He said, regarding the Book of Mormon, calling it the Anti-Mormon approach, “if Joseph Smith made the book up, then it’s peoples did not exist, it’s events did not happen and there should be no trace of them anywhere!!”

Yeah, that about covers it, doesn’t it? I’m not hearing of too many traces out there or even good, solid leads to anything of substance in regards to Book of Mormon artifacts. Where is The Book of Mormon Exhibit? Where is the display in the Church’s History museum, showing off all of the remnants from the Hill Cumorah, from those great, legendary battles? Last I looked, back in July, still missing.

Then he said, “if after a reasonable time of searching, material evidence is not found, then The Book of Mormon would be shown to be imaginary and by implication, Joseph Smith would be exposed as a liar and The Mormon Church unveiled as a hoax.”(Looks like he’s learned something from Hinckley, heading down the “it would then be a fraud road.”)

Then he explains that “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of “Mormonism” and that if you can destroy that stone, all the rest that it supports, will come crashing down.”

Link to my blog and the audio of this BYU Professor’s speech

AMEN, I second that statement as well and I believe that what he describes is beginning to happen and it will only be a matter of time, before it happens big time.

I completely agree with Hinckley, that “there is no middle ground.” “Either it’s all true or all a fraud.” After much intensive study and using one of Hinckley’s two options, I’ve obviously come to the conclusion that it is all indeed a fraud.

It is a complete hoax, perpetuated on the world, beginning with Joseph Smith and continued on through Gordon B. Hinckley today.

If what Hinckley says is true, that the Mormon Church has nothing without it’s History and that “there is no middle ground” and that “it is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing”, I would say they have big problems and it is nothing.

First of all I would like to know why they have FARMS and partner up with FAIR, sharing links back and forth on their websites, etc. It should all be crystal clear, right? Why all of the confusion, if it is so clear cut?

Why have organizations like FARMS at all, which are officially part of BYU, since 1997, when Hinckley spoke and said, “I wish to express my strong congratulations and appreciation for those who started this effort and who have shepherded it to this point?” He concluded by noting that he sees, “a bright future for this effort now through the university.”

I’m just wondering where the inspiration is, from a supposed modern day, living oracle of God. Can’t he help Hinckley out with the location of the city of Zarahemla for example.

Could Hinckley please explain to us why there is nothing inside or around the Hill Cumorah, that would lead us to believe that millions of people died there, along with their swords, breastplates, shields, helmets, clubs, bows, arrows, etc? Where is everything? How did it just disappear?

Where are these caves and caverns in the Hill Cumorah that had rooms stacked with golden plates and Laban’s sword? Did God just twitch his nose and make it all disappear? Why doesn’t he do that with everything then, including the Bible artifacts and places?

Why would it be a bad thing if these things were easily found. Who wouldn’t want to be a Mormon? Can you imagine? Oh yeah, I forgot, we need to live by spiritual proof, not actual proof than can be seen. Sorry about that. We shouldn’t be sign seekers.

If there are actually two Hill Cumorahs, one of the theories now being championed, Hinckley should tell the world where the other one is and how the plates got to the one in New York, right? Then we can go excavate it and shock and amaze the world with complete proof of the validity of the BOM, once and for all.

The problem is, that it has been stated over and over, even by the First Presidency in 1990, that THE HILL CUMORAH in New York, is THE HILL CUMORAH from the BOM which also includes the hill that the Jaredites called RAMAH. It is one in the same. Oops, big problem!!

You see, they can never, ever, officially, embrace a “two Hill Cumorah” theory, because it would contradict every General Authority, all the way back to Joseph Smith, that ever said it was the ONLY HILL CUMORAH. Mormon Hierarchy, you have a big problem on your hands.

Here is a link to a copy of that official 1990 letter

Oh, I’m sorry, God wants to try peoples faith, I keep forgetting, so I guess he took all of the evidence back to heaven, right? Give me a break!!

How can a “true Prophet, Seer and Revelator” of Jesus’ Church, the one and only true Church on the face of the planet earth, with all the keys to receive revelation, not even have a single clue about Book of Mormon geography or archeology?

I guess that I hold the Mormon Prophet, to a higher level than most, but then that is what I was taught for my whole life. What good are all of those keys and titles that he supposedly holds, if you can’t receive revelation for something so simple and basic?

Of course, that doesn’t stop him from receiving “important” revelations on “how many earrings” a woman wears, canceling Missionary Homecomings and Farewells, etc.

If anyone doubts that this simple suggestion on earrings has not become a rule and commandment, just go listen or read Bednar’s talk and check out the example he uses. It blows my mind and leaves no doubt how important it is.

After all, as Bednar said, “The young man waited patiently over a period of time for the young woman to remove her extra earrings, but she did not take them out. This was a valuable piece of information for this young man, and he felt unsettled about her nonresponsiveness to a prophet’s pleading.”

You see,it has now gone from Hinckley “suggesting it”, to a dramatic,”Prophet’s pleading.”

Audio of Bednar on the importance of the earring commandment

The Text of Bednar’s Earring Speech

You would think that Hinckley would know everything that needed to be known about everything, including the Book of Mormon and that Jesus would tell him when and what to release to the world. You know, the milk before the meat thing?

Then again, if it’s all a hoax, and a giant fraud, that may clear things up considerably and help us to understand all of these things very easily and rapidly.

Again, given a choice, after much study and pondering and common sense, I’m gonna take Hinckley’s second option and declare again, that I’ve discovered the Mormon Church to be a complete fraud.

The Mormon Church is without a shred of physical evidence to prove it’s validity, except a bunch of people with warm fuzzy feelings burning in their bosom. May I suggest some Tums or Rolaids. You may just have acid reflux or something.

Of course, that is what they taught us we will feel from the time we were little kids, so we all naturally felt it and wanted to feel it. We were deeply programmed from our youth, those of us that were born into the Mormon Church that is. Interesting isn’t it?

Take care everyone, sorry for this ridiculously long post, but I had a lot to say and I’m very passionate about these things, since I spent over 30 years, believing them with nothing but a burning bosom to prove them. I guess this is a blog and there are no limits and I just felt the need to write this. For those that don’t want to read it, that’s fine, they can just scroll down to the next response below mine.

Again, John, I want to personally thank you and your comments for inspiring me and motivating me to write this post. I felt that it was worth my time. I didn’t know that I had it in me, as lately, I’ve just kind of been chilling and thinking about things while taking a little break from my writing. I guess you reignited the fire. Thanks again for that John!!

I hope that all is well with you and yours and that you will be able to find the “true peace”, that you are seeking, whether in the Mormon Church or out of it. I only sincerely wish you the best. We all have to find that place in this world where we are happy and comfortable and sometimes that’s not easy to do.

I feel like the Mormon Church has lied and betrayed me, along with my Family and Friends and is now driving wedges between us due to my “apostate beliefs.” Everyone is praying for my soul, which is now possibly possessed by the devil.;) They fear for me and know that we won’t be together in the next life, that is, unless I return to “the only true Church on the face of the earth. Remember, there are only 2 Churches and now a part of the whore of all the earth I guess. As Hinckley would say, isn’t it wonderful?

The Mormon fire, in my bosom at least, has been extinguished big time. I now have an intellectual and emotional burning fire, to help as many people as possible to know what I now know.

Now, I just use my brain and common sense, to wade through these inconsistencies and contradictions that used to require a very high degree of cognitive dissonance to try to understand. Now it all makes sense and is so much easier to comprehend, at least for me.

Thanks for your time everyone, especially John. I wish everyone the best in their journey and studies. I hope that this post has helped at least one person out there, that is looking for clarity and understanding.

With regards,

Samuel the Utahnite

Well, that's my response and I feel that it is a pretty damn good one!! I could even write more, but I feel that what I expressed, supported by the examples and links, is pretty solid and I would love to debate anyone that says that they Mormon Church doesn't proclaim to be the one and oonly true Church on the face of the earth. Of course, The Church and Hinckley, along with this Stake President from the Today Show, are now trying to mainstream and back away from such strong staements even though they occureed in the First Vision of Joseph Smith, which is of course, the entire foundation of the Church upone which everthing is built.

If they no longer believe and can't proclaim to the world that these words are true, or if they are now embarrassed or ashamed by Joseph Smith's words, that he claims came directly from Jesus Christ, then Hinckley, this Stake President and anyone else that backs away from these words, in my opinion, is saying that the Church isn't true. Thank you Hinckley once again for admitting what so many of us already know. Thank you Hinckley for admitting that even you don't have a testimony of this cult, which you lead. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it wasn't for Hinckley and his piss poor answers on interviews with Larry King and others, I might still be a member of the Mormon cult. Thanks to him, I began to have questions that I never had before and to research and study about these questions and couldn't believe what I found. So here I am, free of the Mormon cult and Now I just want to help as many people as aI can to leave this disease of Mormonism.

I watched a show tonight on the History channel regarding cults and Mormon's were one of the cults featured, along with Jim Jones, Heaven's gate, Temple something, some guy that created Satan's Church, etc. I felt that it was very appropiate to link and include the Mormon Church with these other death cults. That is where Mormonism belongs. It is an evil death cult that once asked their members
to agree to slit their throats, rather than reveal the secrets of the temple. I'm grateful that the History channel saw fit to lump Mormonism in with these other horrible and evil cults.

Well guys, I better wrap it up but I have a lot to add this week, both here on my blog and on my podcasts. You guys are gonna love what I have to share and expose this week and I can't wait to write it and say it. Just when you think that it can't get any worse, new things pop up that you won't believe, to go with the other stuff that I already wanted to say. This cult knows no shame and will go to any length, to maintain their fraud and perpetuate their lies.

I'm actually wondering right now, if the Mormon Chuch Hierarchy is divided? It seems on one hand, you have the Hinckley's half-assed interview responses, the Stake President's responses on the Today Show, but then you have the new Joseph Smith website and talks like Thomas Monson's, from the last General Conference, praising Joseph Smith as a perfect example for our children to follow. The bottome line is that they all have the same goals in the end, that is to perpetuate the fraud, in order to line their pockets with more money form the membership of the Mormon Church.

Take care everyone and I'll talk to you tomorrow!!

Samuel the Utahnite



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