Thursday, October 06, 2005

My Exchange With The Mormon Apologist Wade Englund Regarding A Hate Mail That I Received In August 2005!!

Back in August, I received a hate mail that I did a post on, here on my blog.
Here's the link for those that haven't read that post. Anyway, I also posted it on a new Mormon Discussions Board that I was personally invited to join by Dr. Shades, who runs and owns the board. He had read my blog here and liked what I had to say and felt that I could engage and contribute to their conversations there. It's a great Board by the way because there are basically no rules and you can say pretty much whatever the hell you want to each other, talk about any subject, without the fear of being censored. Debate is strongly encouraged there as it should be!!

So, anyway, there is guy there that Dr. Shades also invited, by the name of Wade Englund, clearly a lost soul in my opinion. He is clearly one of the craziest Mormon Apologists that I've come across in my short 4 months of being an Ex-Mormon. His logic makes one scratch their head and slip into deep, very deep cognitive dissonance just to even be able to try to grasp what it is he is saying. He rarely addresses any actual points that you bring up and just goes off into his little apologetic world and talks to himself.

Anyway, I'm going to post my exchanges that I had with him regarding my first hate mail. It's pretty comical and you'll see what I mean about this crazy cat. I'm going to post my original post that I posted and then all of the exchanges that transpired between Wade and I regarding my original post. It's long but I think you'll enjoy it. This was pretty much my first and only exchange with Wade because I quickly discovered that he isn't worth my time and quite frankly, I don't have time to deal with with guys like this. If I wanted to bang my head on a brick wall, I'd just go back to being a full-time Mormon, right?

I basically said everything I ever need to say to this guy in my post/letter to him and his response was a no response and just a personal attack against me, not dealing with one aspect of what I had said to him. That proved to me that he was a lost cause as you'll see. At the end of this post, I'll post "Wade Englund's Top 10 Reasons to Love the Anti-Mormons." It's quite comical as well!! The guy is like a freaking comedian and doesn't even know it and certainly isn't trying to be one. So, anyway, let's get started. I think you guys will enjoy this!!

Here was my original post:

I got my first Hate mail!! Check it out!!

Submitted by Samuel the Utahnite on 30/Aug/2005


First, I want to thank Dr. Shades for the personal invite. I must admit, it will be nice to have a place to come to where I don't have to worry and question everything I say. I have my blog but this place will be great to interact with others in a completely free zone.

Thanks again Dr. Shades. I'm seeing some familiar names here that I'm big fans of, so it should be fun.

Anyway, I got my first hate mail and just wanted to share. This guy has a "live journal" on the Internet that is pretty interesting. Anyway, here's the letter, keeping in mind, we have never talked and don't know each other. He has only read my blog:

"Came across your blog And I just about threw up. What is your problem? Why are you so mad at the church? Excommunicated for adultery maybe? Perhaps. Awwww, someone is mad because the Church doesn't approve of their lifestyle. So you're doing this to what, air your grievances? You really think that you'll do 1 thing to tear down God's Kingdom on earth? This is the work, man. No unhallowed hand, remember? I know what your deal is... you've never been a member, and you surely aren't now. You're 1 of 2 things... you're either some "Christian" automaton, preaching against a Church you have no idea about because your preacher asked you to, or you're some preacher, peddling your pathetic anti-Mormon literature. But you are starting a revolution, oh yeah... 99 blog views. Wow. Only 264,999,001 more people to get the message out to. And why don't you allow comments on your little blog? Can someone dish it out, but not take it? Uh-oh. You really are the lowest of the low. Since you're powerful enough to bring down the True Church of God, let's see you answer some questions... what mission did you serve in, who was your mission president, what years did you serve? Which Temple were you married in? Who performed your sealing? Are you divorced? Did you commit adultery? Does your "family" feel the same about the church as you do? Let's see some walk served with this talk, friend."

I just thought that you guys would enjoy this one and have a few comments for our dear "TBM Friend." I think this guy is pretty typical wouldn't you say? Notice how they always go to the "you must be an adulterer card?" Even if I was, I would just be like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and on and on.....I guess he really respects them for what they did. What an idiot!!

Chau, Samuel

Then, here was Wades First response to my Post:

How ironic...

Submitted by Wade on 30/Aug/2005 in reply to I got my first Hate mail!! Check it out!! posted by Samuel the Utahnite on 30/Aug/2005

Message: consider his letter as "hate mail" and he likely considers your blog to be a "hate site".

Anyway, you flippantly tossed out this negative stereotype: "I think this guy is pretty typical [of TBM's] wouldn't you say? Notice how they always go to the 'you must be an adulterer card?'"

No, I don't think his letter is "typical" at all, otherwise you (and perhaps others like you) would have received similar emails from millions of members, rather than just that one.

Granted, there are many, including myself, who believe that apostasy is a result of sin. But, that is a general and not a specific perceived cause, it is one of several perceived causes, the notion of sin covers a vastly broader spectrum than just adultry, and the sins that I and others believe may be responsible for apostacy, are more often ones of omission (not properly nurturing the tree of faith and spiritual life), rather than commission (thnkg like adultry, addiction, abuse, etc.)

I thought to bring this to your attention because your negative stereotype ironically smacks of religious bigotry--assuming you care.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Now here was my long response and letter back to Wade:

Re: How ironic...

Submitted by Samuel the Utahnite on 31/Aug/2005 in reply to How ironic... posted by Wade on 30/Aug/2005


Well Wade, you are a little lost aren't you? You are almost as bad as the guy who wrote me the email when you say, "your negative stereotype ironically smacks of religious bigotry--assuming you care."

First, you've never been on this side of the fence, so you have no clue!! I spent my whole life on your side of the fence. You are still brainwashed and stuck in the Morg, being a Morgbot, saying the things that they want you to say and thinking the way you've been trained to think.

The Church literally raises people to be like parrots, dogs and cattle. From primary to adulthood, they told us what to think, what to say, what to do, who should be our friends, what we can and can't do and even what underwear we should be wearing to help us achieve Eternal Life.

Furthermore, this type of thinking, by my email fan, is very common and that's a fact. They may not be a ranting lunatic like this guy that wrote me the email, but most "TBM" members feel the same way. I'm speaking of whenever a missionary comes home early, someone leaves the Church, etc. If you've ever paid any attention whatsoever to these types of situations, if you've ever been around any, the rumors fly about what they must have done. It had to be sexual, right? Come on man!! You have to know that this is true.

Climb out from under that rock you've been living under, wipe the dirt from your eyes and see the light. It's not to late!! I'm not speaking of hypothetical situations, this crap goes on constantly within the Mormon Church.

What's even worse than that is that these people who suspect a sexual sin or something horrible, then start spreading rumors!! Next thing you know, the whole ward is assuming that this guy screwed a chick or something.

So, I wasn't being "flippant", I was being dead honest and realistic. Then you say, "Granted, there are many, including myself, who believe that apostasy is a result of sin", confirming that you are most likely one of these shallow minded people that fit this stereotype perfectly. I'm not even sure that you understand your own argument. I can tell that you are the typical apologist just by the type of mental gymnastics that you use, like the losers over on FAIR.

Then you say, "that is a general and not a specific perceived cause." Dude, just say it man, you believe that people leave the Church because they have sinned. Was that hard? However you define sin, sin is sin man!! So I guess now we can discuss what would not be, "properly nurturing the tree of faith."

So, not reading the Book of Mormon everyday, masturbating, thinking impure thoughts, not saying your prayers day and night, not going to all your meetings, not blessing your food, etc. So these sins lead people to outright apostasy?

Of course, you haven't considered for one second that it might be because the Mormon Church is a complete fraud and that people find out that they have been lied to their whole life and get pretty pissed off about it? It couldn't be that could it? I've been on both sides and this one sure makes a hell of a lot more sense. At least I don't have to use "cognitive dissonance" anymore to try to understand and defend basic Church teachings and doctrines.

If they had just prayed more and read that one more page in the Book or Mormon, blessed their food more often, etc....whatever man!! You are missing the entire point!! I think you need to do a little "honest" research on the Church and take off your rose colored glasses.

You may be shocked at what you find like I was and most everyone in this place. I know that happened to Hyrum, Polygamy Porter, Mike Norton. Many of us even served missions and gave two years of our life for this Church. We busted our asses, paid our own way and then were told on a daily basis that we sucked, weren't worthy, were sinners, etc. It is a joke and a true tragedy the way that missionaries are treated and screwed up on their missions.

In my opinion, it would much easier to play along and just bow my head in obedience to Hinckley and agree to "give my own life" for the Church than to fight against something that I believed in for over 30 years.

I have best friends and many Family members that are still "brainwashed TBM's." Some know about me and what I've found, some don't, but those that know have already created major problems for me and in one case, I've basically lost a great best friend. Just a note on that, it wasn't that I couldn't accept him staying in the Church, it's that he can't accept me leaving. I wanted to agree just not to talk about it, but he couldn't do it!!

The Church teaches no tolerance all the way back to the first vision when Jesus told Joseph that every Church on the planet was an abomination. So you tell me who is more tolerant!! Mormon's are the ones with the racist past that excluded black men and women from the temple until 1978. Not to mention the many hateful statements toward blacks by Brigham Young and many others. So who has the tolerance problem again?

So the next time you say, "I thought to bring this to your attention because your negative stereotype ironically smacks of religious bigotry--assuming you care", think about the history of the bigoted Church that you are defending.

You wonder if I even care? Yeah, that's why I'm willing to risk family bonds and friendships that go back to my childhood. I do it because I don't care. You got it man, you are a freaking genius!! Now climb back in your hole where you are most comfortable and happy!!

Samuel the Utahnite

Dr. Shades, it is a pleasure to be here!! Thanks again for the personal invite!! Also, Mike, I loved your call to Van Hale!! Also, Hyrum and Mike, your last podcast rocked and of course, Polygamy Porter, you are the man!! You were great once again on the show!! I love your humor guys, keep it up!!

Then, here was Wade's response to me, lashing out at me and not addressing anything:

No need to act out

Submitted by Wade on 01/Sep/2005 in reply to Re: How ironic... posted by Samuel the Utahnite on 31/Aug/2005


Hi Sam,

The only thing I missed during your lengthy childish rant, was your tongue sticking out and various rude noises made by you putting your hand under your arm pit. Perhaps you were doing those things all the while, but I couldn't tell for sure.

Now, with as much as you had puffed yourself up in your original post, I had thought that you might respond with at least a modicum of substance and logic. So, you can understand my mild disappointment to find there was nothng of the sort. In fact, you produced quite the garbage pile of fallacies (have you been taking lessons from Bill Maher?)

Anyway, if it is of any consolation, I understand why you felt a need to act out. I provide a plausible explanation in a thread at ZLMB on fundamentalist/authoritarianism--see here:

The good news is, I may be able to help you with your evident developmentally delayed condition, and it would be to your benefit to open your mind to accepting this kind offer--particularly in dealing effectively and maturely with family and friends who continue to keep their covenants with Christ. Trying to silence me by disfunctionally suggesting that I "climb back into my hole", won't work. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I didn't bother responding, since I had already said everything that I wanted to say. I found his response to be very comical and as you can see, further correspondence with someone of this maturity level, was fruitless. Now, here is a that list I promised you of "Wade Englund's Top 10 Reasons to Love the Anti-Mormons." Many people claimed that he stole them from someone else but I'm guessing that they are his alone.

So here they are, enjoy!!

Wade Englund's Top 10 Reasons to Love the Anti-Mormons...HA HA HA!!

Submitted by Samuel the Utahnite on 02/Sep/2005


Thought you guys would enjoy this, if you haven't already read it!!

Top 10 Reasons to Love the Anti-Mormons

by Wade Englund

1. "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"(Mt 22:39), and "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Mt 5:44)

2. Their efforts tend to generate interest in the Church, and keep our faith frequently in the public eye, which helps our missionary work prosper when they are around.

3. They provide us with a unique insight into the life of the Savior by demonstrating what it must have been like for him to deal with the Scribes and Pharisees.

4. Who else is going to motivate us to study the peripheral, obscure, and markedly unimportant aspects of our religion.

5. They make us laugh with their obtuse, inane, dubious, nefarious, absurd, rancorous, and spiteful antics.

6. We get to dust off our Logic 101 books, and find application for the many fallacies we learned about in school.

7. They give religious bigotry a bad name.

8. Their "cottage" industry is a boost to local economies--particularly paper and print businesses; and their tracts provide a cheap source of fuel for wood stoves and fireplaces.

9. We are no longer left to wonder: "how many times can the same weak and well-refuted claims be made against our faith?" (Infinity!); and, "to what extent will the anti-Mormons go in forwarding their un-Christ-like agendas?" (Anything goes--including "lying for the Lord".)

10. They provide a loving "home" for the chronic discontents, and they help make even the most misinformed and unscholarly writers of religion feel important and erudite.

Here's the direct link:

Anyway, this was my one and only experience with Wade Englund and it was fun while it lasted but not something that I would look forward to again. Maybe someday, he can open his eyes and see the light but I seriously doubt it. Any further correspondence with him would just be waisting my time as I mentioned above. Hope you enjoyed it!! For me, it was a little walk down memory lane. I had archived everything and basically forgotten about them until today.

I have tons more to add to my blog this week, so stay tuned. I've been a little short of time the last couple of weeks, I apologize, but I'll make it up, I promise. I appreciate all of you that read my blog on a regular basis and send the link to others. Again, if you have any experiences, inside information or anything that you want me to share, just email whatever it is to me. I'm still in the process of trying to respond to everyone that has emailed me and I just wanted to say thanks for all of your Emails and personal stories and experiences. You guys are great!! My Email direction is on my profile page but to save you some time, it's

Take care everyone and I'll be back later today!!

Samuel the Utahnite

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At Friday, January 12, 2007 12:59:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm an ex Mormon too but I'm appalled at this kind of "contest." Wade Englund is clearly mentally ill and, that's a reason not to have cheap shots at him. The jury's still out on you but, if you lose the bitterness, you might begin to see the light!

At Friday, March 07, 2008 1:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't agree that anyone is "clearly mentally ill." The only thing that is clear to me is that this kind of contentious dialogue doesn't get anyone anywhere. Can't we all just get along? On both sides of the fence? Can't we just respect each other's beliefs and life decisions? Why do we have to guess at each other's faults and motivations? Why do we have to label people as "mentally ill" or "brainwashed" or "a sinner?" The truth is, we are all people - either God's children or brothers in humanity depending on your point of view. And I think the vast majority of us are just trying our best to figure it all out. It's unfortunate that we become so empassioned as to stop being productive and helpful in debate and to lower ourselves to these types of tactics & rhetoric that serve to frustrate the humble seeker of truth that comes across them. Is there anywhere to turn for someone who is respectfully searching for answers? Where we can get facts & opinion that are not designed to just slam the other side? I am sick to death of people bashing each other. Stop the madness!!!!! Now let's all hold hands & sing koombiah.....


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