Thomas S. Monson and a little boys suicide!!
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This was part of a talk given by Thomas Monson in the April 2005 General Conference. It was entitled, "Constant Truths for Changing Times." I read this a while back and I have really needed to post this. After analyzing what he said, I was shocked to say the least by the overall conclusions of this part of his speech. I just wanted to see what you guys think.
Here is the quote:
"Several years ago we had a young paperboy who didn't always deliver the paper in the manner intended. Instead of getting the paper on the porch, he sometimes accidentally threw it into the bushes or even close to the street. Some on his paper route decided to start a petition of complaint. One day a delegation came to our home and asked my wife, Frances, to sign the petition. She declined, saying, "Why, he's just a little boy, and the papers are so heavy for him. I would never be critical of him, for he tries his best." The petition, however, was signed by many of the others on the paper route and sent to the boy's supervisors.
Not many days afterward, I came home from work and found Frances in tears. When she was finally able to talk, she told me that she had just learned that the body of the little paperboy had been found in his garage, where he had taken his own life. Apparently the criticism heaped upon him had been too much for him to bear. How grateful we were that we had not joined in that criticism. What a vivid lesson this has always been regarding the importance of being nonjudgmental and treating everyone with kindness."
Link to talk
My opinion is that first of all, he missed the entire point of the fact that the little Boy died and that he and his wife did nothing to prevent it. As he said, " How grateful we were that we had not joined in that criticism." So basically, as long as they didn't sign the petition, they were in the clear? So, they have a clean conscience? Was this about the Boy or about Thomas Monson pointing out how righteous he is? So, they didn't sign the petition, great, but they didn't stop it either!!
Now let's remind each other of who this man pretends to be. According to the Mormon hierarchy, He is the 2nd most powerful man that God has on earth and is God's next Prophet, Seer and Revelator with all the keys and power. Only Hinckley has more authority that he does.
So with that being said, I find it astonishing that he had absolutely no inspiration whatsoever regarding this situation. He didn't know or feel that the boy might commit suicide? Why didn't he at least go and meet with the Boy and try to console him knowing that there was a petition going around and since he appeared to be so concerned for the little boy? Why didn't he go tell the little Boy that everything would be okay, see if he needed help, etc? After all, his Wife Frances said that, "I would never be critical of him, for he tries his best."
Why didn't they at least tell him that, instead of talking to each other and the walls? Maybe it would have made a difference, right?
Now, all of this leads me to wonder, how the Family and Parents of this little boy feel about Thomas Monson using the tragic death of their Son as an object lesson. Did he notify them beforehand? I have also begun to wonder, as I'm sure many have, if all of these stories are just bogus and made up anyway. Has anyone ever tried to confirm all of their little stories? I hope that this story is indeed made up!!
But, lets assume it's a real Family whose little Boy really did take his own life; do they appreciate Thomas Monson using the example of their Son to show the world how righteous he and his wife are? By the way, I wonder if it was the Deseret News that the Boy was delivering? Surely, Thomas Monson could have intervened and talked to the Supervisor since it is the "Church's Newspaper." He could have said, "hey, go easy on the little Boy, the neighbors are coming down pretty hard on him."
Was the little Boy and his Family Mormon? Were they in his ward or stake? Was the "delegation" that came over with the petition, Mormon? Lots of unanswered questions in this little but very sad story and I think we deserve the answers.
Now Thomas Monson ends by saying, "What a vivid lesson this has always been regarding the importance of being nonjudgmental and treating everyone with kindness."
I personally think that this story by Thomas Monson is a "vivid lesson" in his lack of humility or caring for a little Boy, that took his own life, because of something that Thomas Monson should have known or could have tried to stop. But hey, at least he didn't sign the petition, right?
To me, this story also proves what most of us here already know; that Thomas Monson has no more inspiration than my dog. He has no special power of discernment or revelation whatsoever. He is a man, just like any other man and this story certainly proves that point. He is an arrogant and self-serving man that can't wait to get his hands on the reins of a Billion dollar corporation. In other words, this is just another example that proves that these guys are not really Prophets, Seers, Revelators or Apostles of Jesus or any God. They are instead, FRAUDS!!
Hey, Mr. Monson, I know you are disconnected from us real people and all reality; but as your Mormon Church teaches, there are sins of commission and sins of omission. You Sir, committed a sin of omission by not intervening in this situation, that were aware of and that was happening right in your very neighborhood, right under your nose. If you are indeed God's 2nd most powerful man, the 1st counselor to God's mouthpiece, where was your inspiration?
Quit patting yourself on the back Tommy, for not signing the petition; the Boy is gone and you did nothing to stop it and you have nothing to be proud of and you are a disgrace.
You should be ashamed of yourself!!
Samuel the Utahnite
Labels: Mormon, Mormon LDS Mormonism Thomas Monson Prophet cult fraud liar deceiver corrupt bullshit jackass leader hierarchy suicide little paper boy seer revelator revelation
posted by Samuel the Utahnite @ 10:29 PM
113 comments
113 Comments:
Yeah and what a freaking genius you are, right? Please explain what I wrote about in the above post, instead of calling me an idiot and saying how great Elder Monson is. What do you have to back up your statement of his greatness.
I personally know Elder Monson by the way and he is just any other guy, trust me. He has no super power and is no better than anybody else. Do you know him Anon? This above talk was very disturbing to me, whether I know the guy or not and I felt that it had to be written about.
I've done extensive research on this, as have many others and we can find nothing about this newspaper boy that committed suicide. I've spoken to neighbors of his, in the neighborhood where he lives and nothing. Not one person remembers this incident. Can you help us out Anonymous?!!
I don't even think that this story is real or ever really happened. He is just making up stories to bolster his points, and give him credibility, just like Joseph Smith did with the Book of Mormon. In other words, he is lying for the Lord and it is fully justified, because his intent is good, right?
You Anonymous need to educate yourself a lot, in order to understand what I'm even talking about. So, if you can help me at least validate this story, that it even happened at all and that he isn't outright lying; then we can deal with the context, which is also very hard to excuse, unless you are a true believer like yourself and see these men as deity.
Good luck and I look very much forward to your response and whether or not you can come up with more than "What an idiot you are!!"
Samuel the Utahnite
You know... I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. While you and I have very different opinions on Thomas S. Monson and on the Latter-Day Saint church, I respect the fact that not everyone is going to have the same beliefs on everything.
First, let me start by saying, I do believe Thomas S. Monson is a man of God, and does recieve direct revelation from our Heavenly Father. However, if he was to recieve revelation for every single person in this world, he would have no time for anything else. Also, this little boy who tragically took his own life, had the free agency to do so. That doesn't make it any less sad or tragic, but Thomas S. Monson isn't a fortune-teller who can predict the future. That isn't how the Lord works. He recieves divine revelation when the Lord feels it appropriate to give it to him. Why did he not recieve revelation about this little boy? Well, I can't answer that with the kind of facts or pure knowledge you are probably looking for, but I can say that the Lord will not interfere with anyones free agency to choose good or choose otherwise. He loves us far too much to order us about like servants. Unfortunately for everyone involved, this little boy made a the choice to end his own life. However, that is not President Monson's fault.
Also, just because people in this neighborhood you have supposedly talked to do not remember this event, does not mean it did not happen. President Monson said "several years ago," is when this all took place. Perhaps it was not even the same neighborhood that President Monson currently lives in. If you know President Monson, you should ask him about it. He is a kind man, and if you believe in the Savior, and you go speak with President Monson, you can know he is a man of God by his shining countenance. He has the light of Christ in his eyes. You may not see that, or may not agree with that, but that is my belief and the belief of many others - I just ask you do not criticize us for our what we believe.
you're seriously really dumb. God cant give you a revelation just like that...I mean the kid is in a much better place...have you ever seen raven like when she gets those visions and what not she cant control them they come to her...Monson is a very very great man...I love him next to my dear prophet...and you are just soo stuck up in things that dont matter that you cant see things when they are right infront of you...btw that video is false doctrine we dont think people who arent of our faith are going to heck...okay...we believe everyone will have the chance to know about the gospel...I hopefully will see you in the spirit world when you get taught the right. And we do have the fullness of the gospel not because of the books we have but of what we know...you have a purpose as well even though you act like an idiot!
First, "You're an idiot" is hardly a legitimate response. Those who respond in such a way are clearly not displaying a Christ-like demeanor. (Can you see Christ saying, “You’re an idiot” to those Pharisees who so often tried arguing with him?) Second, I have to disagree with some of the logic behind your criticism.
In the talk he mentions that they (those with the petition) came to his wife, not him personally. Next, this happened many years ago. Not only did he mention it happening many years ago, he also referred to returning home from work to find his wife crying. Sounds to me like this happened when he was still employed in his normal vocation before being called to any “high” church calling. I’m not saying that with certainty, just that the circumstances seem to indicate that. (Judging from some of his other talks this had to happen at least in the early 60’s perhaps even earlier.) So, there are many reasons he would not have been inspired to intervene. He wasn’t aware until later, he was not in a position of authority over that locale, family, etc, or perhaps God allowed it to happen for a greater purpose. (Why didn’t God inspire Lot to leave Sodom before he had to send angels in?)
Given the era that this probably happened is another good reason why your search turned up nothing in the news about it. The press had an unwritten code of conduct that they went by in those days. They made every effort to not cause further hurt or embarrassment to people (JFK’s frequent trysts never made the news) and often did not list cause of death, especially if it involved suicide.
You wonder “how the Family and Parents of this little boy feel with Thomas Monson using the tragic death of their Son as an object lesson?” Did it even occur to you that perhaps he changed some of the details of the story for the express purpose of NOT causing further grief for the family? I know I would.
I’m afraid the “evidence” you try to use is extremely flimsy to say the least. You clearly had your conclusion in mind BEFORE you set about looking for evidence. But then everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The church has withstood more spewed hatred than on your website. It has survived, and will survive no matter how many people like you there are out there. The work will go forward and you, nor anyone else, will be able to stop it. If you really were a missionary I’d wager you’re creating more converts to the church now than you did on your mission.
Gadiantonslayer@yahoo.com
Given the fact that Paul H. Dunn told some faith promoting stories that turned out to be false, why wouldn't Monson do the same? What faithful Mormon is going to call him on it?
I think the key here is to do some more research. That people who lived in the neighborhood have no memory of the event should be a smoking gun to all. If a paperboy killed himself, then there would be a grave and a death certificate.
The fact is Mormon leaders have a bad habit of telling lies. Joseph Smith based his religion on the lie that God and Jesus visited him even though Brigham Young and others said that God didn't visit him but sent an angel.
What a tangled web we weave.....
Oh? And what neighborhood would that be? Site your researchers, their sources, locations, etc. You will have to go back quite a way as this happened long ago. (You chose to ingnore the last post.) While your siting, also site your source where Brigham Young said God didn't visit Joseph but sent an angel. Seems you are doing the weaving here.
Hey, please allow me to jump in here for a second and address the angel visiting Joseph Smith.
This is what Brigham Young actually said in Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171:
But as it was in the days of our Savior, so was it in the advent of this new dispensation. It was not in accordance with the notions, traditions, and pre-conceived ideas of the American people. The messenger did not come to an eminent divine of any of the so-called orthodoxy, he did not adopt their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven in power and great glory, nor send his messengers panoplied with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek, the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere enquirer after the knowledge of God. But he did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jr., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that he had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before him.
Now, if you want to get into the 9 different versions of the First Vision and that the one you use today, wasn't published or written until 1838, I would love it. Of course, I'm sure that your response will be the same as your Master Hinckley's; SO WHAT?!!
We look forward to your response. Also, why don't you prove that this story that Monson is telling, did indeed happen. I mean; what it happened in the 50's or something? Yeah, I guess for someone that lies on a regular basis and makes up stories every time he talks, just to prove his points, 56 years ago, would be "several years ago." He's so deluded at this point, he doesn't know which way is up or down.
By the way, I personally know Thomas Monson and he's a nice guy personally, but puts on a great show and act when the cameras are rolling.
But, to a normal person, "several years ago", would mean 3-5, maybe 10 at the most. But of course, we are just dumbasses and he's been voted unanimously(only by those in General Conference) a Prophet, Seer and Revelator, right?
We look forward to your response, or anybodies response.
Samuel
I've seen plenty here that explains why you can't locate evidence that it did happen. You are the accuser so it is incumbent upon YOU to prove YOUR allegations. Not the other way around.
As far as Brigham Young’s statement; at least you posted the entire quote. The Tanners edited it thusly, "The Lord did not come . . . . But he did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jun., . . . and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." Oh lovely ellipses!
But this is the real sentence that trips you up, “But he did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jr., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day…” For the sake of argument I will assume this is a correctly recorded quote. (BY did not write this but asked that scribes take notes to record his words.) Even so I still do not have a problem with it.
“But he…” The “he” being Jesus Christ. What did “he” do? He sent an angel (Moroni). What ELSE did “he” do? “[and]informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day…” Have you never sent an email or letter only to have the “flavor” or intent be misunderstood by the receiver? Happens all the time. I have no doubt this is how the message was supposed to be perceived. Especially since Brigham Young recounted many times the First Vision. Before and after this speech.
I can see by your responses that you ignore very good, persuasive possibilities because they conflict with your agenda. I don’t expect you to accept this. I know full well you won’t. But then…SO WHAT! (Couldn’t resist.)
Yeah and your agenda begins and ends with "the church is true and nothing could ever prove that it isn't." You think you're open minded? Could anything prove to you that the church is false. Of course not!!
By the way, I don't ignore or dodge anything, it is you pathetic apologists that duck, slip, block, parry, bob and weave, like a punch drunk boxer and AVOID every truth there is, in order to justify your BS premise, which is that it's true no matter what, because your bosom has 100 foot flames in it and nobody can put them out.
You see, if anything is wrong, or looks horrible, it had to be the scribes that did it, or the antis, because someone as holy and righteous as Brigham Young certainly would never say it, right?
Anything that puts the Mormon church or their Godlike and worshiped Hierarchy in a bad light, has to either be a misquote or written down wrong. Do you enjoy living in "the village" crossed with the "Twilight Zone?" I'm sure you love it!!
By the way, I don't think it really matters whether you share that entire quote or what the Tanners shared, because it means the same exact thing, which is that Joseph Smith claimed that an angel came down, not Jesus and God the Father, to tell him not to join any churches.
Can you please point out, in one place, where Brigham Young referred to Joseph Smith's First Vision, exactly as we have it today in the Pearl of Great Price? Good luck on that one, because you are gonna need it.
Here is another great quote from Brigham Young, talking about how much he admires Joseph and that he doesn't care what the hell he does:
I said, hold on, brother Gillmore, here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I donor care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor's wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it. - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p.77 (November 9, 1856)
Would you care Anon if Hinckley "acted like a devil, got drunk every day of his life, slept with his neighbor's wife(or your wife) every night, ran horses and gambled?" Of course you wouldn't, because you're a brainwashed, TBM cult member of the Mormon cult
I think this says a lot about Brigham Young's character though, but hey, he was sealed to Joseph Smith, so they were basically married in the temple anyway..LOL!! When did that end by the way and why?
Do you also believe as Briggy baby did, that "every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist?"
- JoD 8:176 (September 9, 1860)
Oh I'm sorry, it was probably that damn scribe again, working his own agenda, even though Brigham Young signed off on everything after reading it.
I mean, you have to know anon, that the version of the first vision we have today, wasn't written until 1838(and not published until 1842), when almost everybody either high up in the church or around Joseph Smith, was either being excommunicated or Apostatizing, mainly for their disbelief in the Book of Mormon. All of the Whitmers had left, many Apostles, the 1st counselor in the First Presidency, etc.
First Joseph Smith went for a remission of his sins, because he, through his personal study, had already come to his own conclusion that there was no true church, that all were false. Then later, he said that he went to the grove to pray, to "find out which church was true and that is was Jesus who told him that."
If you really want to get into all of the different versions of the First Vision, we can, but you will lose, because it is very damning information and shows how the vision evolved from something simple, that happened in 1823, to something much more complex and amazing in 1838, exactly when the church was on the verge of a complete collapse. I guess he kept the "true version", in his back pocket, in case things went sour, right?
Now, the little fairy tale that is taught to everyone today, is that it happened in 1820, was the entire basis for the Church, everybody in the community knew about, especially the members, when in reality, nobody knew about it really, at least as we have it now, until 1838 or 1842, when it was finally published for the first time. So you tell me anon, why is that? Please enlighten us all!!
So, you don't have a problem with Brigham Young saying that an angel told Joseph not to join any churches, instead of God the Father and Jesus Christ? You honestly don't see a difference between an angel and God and Jesus?
Another great question for you to answer for all of us, is how did Joseph Smith see God and Jesus, without the Priesthood, when he says:
"And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
"For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live."
-D&C 84:21-22
I'm not gonna go through every version right now, but in the first hand written account, he specifically mentions "The Lord" and a "remission of his sins." Then, in a journal account from 1835-1836, a lot of which the Church used for what we have in the Pearl of Great Price today, they left out this very important and critical part:
. .I called on the Lord in mighty prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me head, and filled me with joy unspeakable, a PERSONAGE appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testifyed [sic] unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; and I saw MANY ANGELS in this vision I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication . . . (Joseph Smith's Diary, 1835-36, p.24, as quoted in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1971, p.87).
WHAT? No mention of God the Father or Jesus specifically? Many angels? Oh really? Is that still in the Pearl of Great Price today?
Here are some other statement to chew on Anon:
John Taylor, the third president of the church, made the following statement on March 2, 1879: ". . . just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right. What, none of them? No. We will not stop to argue that question; the angel merely told him to join none of them that none of them were right" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p.167).
George A. Smith, who was sustained as first counselor in the First Presidency in 1868, made this statement in November of the same year:
When Joseph Smith was about fourteen or fifteen years old, . . . there was a revival of religion . . . He had read the Bible and had found that passage in James. . . . he went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong . . . (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, pp.333-34).
Also, I'd like to ask you why(since you criticize scribes so much and find them unreliable, as do most Apologists), did they rely on a scribe's version for what we have today as the account of The First Vision, in the Pearl of Great Price?
Why did it go unpublished until 1842?
I'd also love to know why, if Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, why he had to pray in his room in 1823 to find out "if a Supreme being did exist?"
In the first history of Mormonism from 1835 written under Joseph Smith's direction, it says that the night of September 1823 Joseph Smith began praying in his bed to learn "the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him." (LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Feb. 1835)
How could that possibly make sense if Smith had already seen God face-to-face some three years earlier in 1820?
There are many more questions, but I'll stop for now and let you respond to what I just posted. I look very forward to how you explain all of this away and try not to use burning bosoms, jacked up scribes or "it just wasn't the time to share that info", etc.
Best wishes,
Samuel
I will research that as soon as I get the chance. In the mean time, since you keep insisting you know President Monson, would you provide irrefutable evidence of that for me? Frankly, I don’t believe it for a moment. And while you’re at it, please provide empirical evidence that you interviewed neighbors of his about this story? I want addresses, dates and names. You see, most of the things you provide as evidence against the church are very closely worded to most other anti material I’ve seen. In other words, you seem to just parrot back things others have said. You are using the “talking points” of others while at the same time claiming personal knowledge.
Don’t get me wrong. If you could convince me I could sleep in on Sundays, keep tithing money to myself and get loaded if I wanted to. (Never had a drink and don’t care to start.) But you need to at least prove yourself a reliable source. If you’ve lied about the above then how can you be trusted in a debate? Anything wrong with that request?
I just got through reading all the comments here and noticed something. Almost every time someone actually tried addressing the original post by Samuel, he responded by trying to change the subject. What's the matter Sam? AADD?
I think the point is that there are plenty of other threads that deal with the other stuff. This one should address the Thomas Monson "Paperboy" talk. Either Sam has the evidence or he doesn't. If he has, we should all see it. If not, then he should do the right thing and remove the tread completely.
Hey Anon,(At Sunday, October 08, 2006 7:21:39 AM, Anonymous said...)
You said:
I just got through reading all the comments here and noticed something. Almost every time someone actually tried addressing the original post by Samuel, he responded by trying to change the subject. What's the matter Sam? AADD?
Are you just stupid or do you have your head firmly lodged up your ass? It's an honest and legit question. I haven't tried to "change the question", I was simply addressing the points made by the other Anon. Oh yeah, I have AADD...LMAO!! Now what was it we were talking about again...LOL!!
What do you Have, the stupid gene or what? When people left me a response dealing with the post, I responded accordingly. If they want to get into other issues, I'll gladly do that too.
I don't give a damn what we talk about and it's my blog and I can talk about anything I want on any post I want and for that matter, so can you you guys, as you've obviously done. Do you actually think that you can dictate to me, what I can discuss and where, on my own blog?
It must be that "I'm gonna be a God" someday attitude coming out, right? Mormons sure do like to try and control other people, don't they? Yeah, well, I've been down that road for over 30 years and it's over!!
The last Anon (At Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:31:37 AM, Anonymous) said:
I think the point is that there are plenty of other threads that deal with the other stuff. This one should address the Thomas Monson "Paperboy" talk. Either Sam has the evidence or he doesn't. If he has, we should all see it. If not, then he should do the right thing and remove the tread completely.
I've admitted that I don't have the evidence that it happened or that it didn't happen and neither do any of you.
So, I can share my opinion about how despicable the talk is, using the paperboy as an example for how righteous he is, because he didn't sign the petition and the fact that he did nothing to stop the boys suicide; because he had absolutely no inspiration, as God's 2nd most powerful man on planet earth or hell, maybe in the whole galaxy.
You guys just can't deal with the truth and will defend the Mormon church to your death, which is what they require "if necessary", right?
At least you no longer have to pantomime slitting open you throat, chest and stomach anymore...good thing God wised up and removed that part of his sacred ceremony, isn't it?
Oh yeah and taking out the naked touching, near the genitals was a good thing too. Unfortunately, I had to experience both, as did most of my family and friends.
Bottom line, you Anon clowns; I will never remove this post and if you guys are so sure and so positive that this little boy really did commit suicide and that Thomas Monson didn't sign the petition. that the "delegation" brought around, then show me the proof.
Are you telling me that these "men of God" don't have to ever prove that what they are saying is true? So, in other words, they can just make shit up, just like I'm saying and the obligation to disprove it is on the world. So, everything they say is the God's honest truth, unless someone proves it wrong? Good to see you guys thinking for yourself, in your brainwashing cult.
These guys make up letters and faith promoting stories all the time. They have to make shit up, because they don't really have many real stories of so called inspiration to tell.
They all have the Paul H. Dunn syndrome, but just haven't been caught yet. I just think it's odd that nobody remembers this little paperboy committing suicide. I know people that have been at the NAC for over 20 years and guess what? They know nothing about it.
I'm not gonna reveal the names of the people I know to a bunch of dumb ass Anon, TBM, Mormon Apologists, anymore than I'm gonna reveal how I know Thomas Monson. You guys must really be stupid if you think I would be open to you when you won't reveal who you are either. Too much LDS for you guys!!
The thing is, these cult leaders like Thomas Monson don't expect anyone to ever check out there stories and who can question, for example, whether they "received a letter" from some guy who says overcoming porno addiction, doesn't even hold a candle to overcoming hard drugs like cocaine, because he's done both.
You guys are all suckers, that hang on their every word and I feel sorry for you, I really do.
Samuel
And your mind seems firmly closed as extremely plausible explanations have been presented and you choose to completely discount them. Especially since the point of his talk was about being “nonjudgmental and treating everyone with kindness.” Yet you hope to twist it into something sinister. Reading this blog brings the following scripture to mind:
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
(Old Testament | Isaiah 5:20 - 21)
Where was it you said we could find out what your beliefs are? I gave a cursory look around your site and couldn’t find it. (Not giving up just hoping you can get me there more quickly.) I guess it would help to know from what theological position you are speaking. What I mean is; if NO religion to you is true then using the Bible to attempt to make a point would be fruitless, would it not?
I’d like to have a sincere discussion. Except this thread, without substance or merit, is not beneficial. What it really is-is a matter of opinion, not fact. The thing about opinions is we all have one and they don’t have to agree. But it should be made clear to those whom you are speaking, that you are stating an opinion. You insist they are facts yet provide no proof.
Were we in a court of law; “Your honor? Motion to dismiss due to lack of evidence.” Let the libel suit begin.
Wow, anon, you are dumber than I even gave you credit for. Where have I said, anywhere, that it's absolute fact that this little boy didn't exist and that he didn't commit suicide and that I have the 100% proof and evidence to support my view and opinion.
I'm sorry that you are so hell bent in proving that a little boy did commit suicide, just to prop up your cult leader and next Prophet of fraud, Thomas S. Monson. Me personally, outside of all of this discussion as to whether Monson made it up or not; I would hope that a little boy did not commit suicide, and that Monson lied, while you hope he did tell the truth and that little boy did commit suicide. Now that's extremely sad, isn't it!!
I guess in your diligence and zeal, to prove that Monson would never lie, and is indeed a Prophet of God, you forgot that a little boy's life was involved; not to mention his family that also suffered through the tragedy, and the fact that Monson didn't lift a finger to stop any of it. I truly for sorry for you and anyone like you, I really do!!
Like I said, you pathetic TBM Apologists will go to any length to disprove a digression or sin of one of your cult hierarchy.
Now, since you are dumb as a box of rocks and have the reading comprehension of ZERO, let me show you what I've said and then you tell me, where exactly, I said, without a doubt and that I had absolute evidence, that Thomas Monson made up the story, okay?
In the original post, I said:
I have also begun to wonder, as I'm sure many have, if all of these stories are just bogus and made up anyway. Has anyone ever tried to confirm all of their little stories? I hope that this story is indeed made up!!
In my first comment, I said:
I've done extensive research on this, as have many others and we can find nothing about this newspaper boy that committed suicide. I've spoken to neighbors of his, in the neighborhood where he lives and nothing. Not one person remembers this incident. Can you help us out Anonymous?!!
I don't even think that this story is real or ever really happened. He is just making up stories to bolster his points, and give him credibility, just like Joseph Smith did with the Book of Mormon. In other words, he is lying for the Lord and it is fully justified, because his intent is good, right?
You Anonymous need to educate yourself a lot, in order to understand what I'm even talking about. So, if you can help me at least validate this story, that it even happened at all and that he isn't outright lying; then we can deal with the context, which is also very hard to excuse, unless you are a true believer like yourself and see these men as deity.
In my second comment, in referring to what "many years ago" means, I said:
But, to a normal person, "several years ago", would mean 3-5, maybe 10 at the most. But of course, we are just dumbnesses and he's been voted unanimously(only by those in General Conference) a Prophet, Seer and Revelator, right?
In my 4th comment, I said:
I've admitted that I don't have the evidence that it happened or that it didn't happen and neither do any of you.
So, I can share my opinion about how despicable the talk is, using the paperboy as an example for how righteous he is, because he didn't sign the petition and the fact that he did nothing to stop the boys suicide; because he had absolutely no inspiration, as God's 2nd most powerful man on planet earth or hell, maybe in the whole galaxy.
You guys just can't deal with the truth and will defend the Mormon church to your death, which is what they require "if necessary", right?
At least you no longer have to pantomime slitting open you throat, chest and stomach anymore...good thing God wised up and removed that part of his sacred ceremony, isn't it?
Oh yeah and taking out the naked touching, near the genitals was a good thing too. Unfortunately, I had to experience both, as did most of my family and friends.
Bottom line, you Anon clowns; I will never remove this post and if you guys are so sure and so positive that this little boy really did commit suicide and that Thomas Monson didn't sign the petition. that the "delegation" brought around, then show me the proof.
Are you telling me that these "men of God" don't have to ever prove that what they are saying is true?
So, in other words, they can just make shit up, just like I'm saying and the obligation to disprove it is on the world. So, everything they say is the God's honest truth, unless someone proves it wrong? Good to see you guys thinking for yourself, in your brainwashing cult.
These guys make up letters and faith promoting stories all the time. They have to make shit up, because they don't really have many real stories of so called inspiration to tell.
They all have the Paul H. Dunn syndrome, but just haven't been caught yet. I just think it's odd that nobody remembers this little paperboy committing suicide. I know people that have been at the NAC for over 20 years and guess what? They know nothing about it.
I'm not gonna reveal the names of the people I know to a bunch of dumb ass Anon, TBM, Mormon Apologists, anymore than I'm gonna reveal how I know Thomas Monson. You guys must really be stupid if you think I would be open to you when you won't reveal who you are either. Too much LDS for you guys!!
The thing is, these cult leaders like Thomas Monson don't expect anyone to ever check out there stories and who can question, for example, whether they "received a letter" from some guy who says overcoming porno addiction, doesn't even hold a candle to overcoming hard drugs like cocaine, because he's done both.
You guys are all suckers, that hang on their every word and I feel sorry for you, I really do.
Okay, so where is your damning evidence, that I have absolute proof, that Thomas S. Monson made this story up. Of course it is my opinion that he made it up and I hope that is the case. Notice how when these guys cite Time magazine or surveys that have been done about various things, they always cite a source and have a reference.
Why wouldn't they do that with a story so important, about a little newspaper boy who committed suicide, due to the "petition and delegation", that probably mostly Mormon people formed. I feel safe in guessing that it happened in Utah and that there were Mormons in his neighborhood.
Of course I'm stating my opinion and I've made that abundantly clear, several times, unless, like I said, you just don't have the ability to understand words and phrases, and have ZERO reading comprehension, which is obviously the case here.
Either that, or your intense brainwashing, probably since birth and childhood, have blinded you to any other conclusion than "Thomas S. Monson is a man of God, next in line to be Prophet and would NEVER EVER LIE!!"
"Let the libel suit begin?" What are you smoking dude? I say bring it on and I'll see them in court. That way we could find out if Thomas S. Monson has any sources for his story about the poor little boy. We all know how these men hate to take the witness stand, and like to settle things quietly and "cut deals" a la Mark Hoffman, don't we?
Besides, stating an opinion or questioning if someone is telling the truth or not; would never become a libel suit. Now, if I was stating that "he DEFINITELY made it up" and I had facts and absolute truth regarding the matter, and they had facts to the contrary; then maybe they'd have a case and I'd be forced to present that evidence in court.
By the way, speaking of lawyers and lawsuits, I come from a family of lawyers, so I'm pretty familiar with I can or can't say. Are you?
By the way, how about the BYU Professor, Steven Jones, saying that he believes President Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were all behind and purposely organized 911 and the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children by planting bombs in the towers for a controlled demolition?
He also claims collusion with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, claiming that the hijackings and their subsequent crashing into the towers, was organized by Bush and company as a "diversionary tactic." I'd say that's pretty slanderous, isn't it? Isn't The Constitution amazing, since it even allows nutjobs like this to have free speech and make ridiculous accusations that are so absurd, hardly anyone believes them?
Again, it's just his opinion, but he strongly believes it and there isn't a doubt in his mind that it's true. Should the US Government drag his ass into court? I'm guessing that you don't believe people should have freedom of speech, unless it agrees with Mormonism and you?
I'm just curious; shouldn't us Ex-Mormons have the right to sue them for outright lying to us our entire life about the true history of Mormonism? How about Hinckley? He has outright lied countless times on national TV. Should we sue him?
How about when they tell us to pay our tithing first, before even our home mortgage or feeding our family? Should we sue them when we lose our home, go bankrupt or don't have food for the family and the Bishop won't help us? Or what if we live in a place where the welfare system doesn't exist or where they don't have any food to help us after paying our tithing, which is our food money?
How about all those people that sat and listened to Paul H. Dunn and had burning bosoms and confirmation of their faith, while listening to his flat out lies and embellishments? Should people sue him for their emotional distress, when they found it was all a bunch of BS?
If all of the ex-Mormons got together, we could probably have a pretty damn good class action lawsuit against Mormonism and the hierarchy, just based on their outright fraud and lies, and how they robbed us of our money for 10,20, or 30 years plus.
So again, before you accuse me of being libelous, maybe you should check your own facts, make sure that what you are stating as fact, is indeed fact and then take a look at everything happening all around you in your cult, both past and present and then get back to me.
Good luck in your cult life and I hope you enjoy all of the future Faith promoting stories, a la Paul H. Dunn and that your bosom becomes a raging inferno....until you one day find out you too were duped!! dooooh!!
Samuel
That's perfectly ok. We understand that all you are looking for is validation that you didn't screw up big time. It's a psychological exercise to make yourself feel better.
Man, you just keep making yourself look dumber and dumber, if you are the same Anon dumbass that I've been talking to. I don't need any validation, rather you my new anon, TBM, Apologist pal, are the one searching desperately for proof, that your little angel Monson would never make up stories like Paul H. Dunn did.
As I recall, Paul H. Dunn was quite the cult(pun intended) hero to Mormons and everybody loved the guy. He made millions off of his 28 books and 23 tapes that were among the most popular items sold at Jesus' "one and only true bookstore" and he was also a real hit on the fireside circuit for decades.
He was also a Seventy, called directly by God and at one time, between 1976-1980, was even in the Presidency of the First Quorum of the Seventy and just a step away from being an Apostle.
What was Paul H. Dunn's response to his lies being uncovered:
"Dunn acknowledged that those stories and others were untrue, but he defends fabrications as necessary to illustrate his theological and moral points."
"He compares his stories to the parables told by Jesus--acknowledging, however, that Jesus' parables weren't about himself..."
"Dunn... said he doesn't consider it deceitful to exaggerate or alter facts."
"He said his technique is to 'combine' elements of several true stories to create a single story that will better convey a message and capture an audience's interest...."
"'The combining of stories seems justifiable in terms of illustrating a point. My motives are pure and innocent,' Dunn said during an interview in Salt Lake City attended by his attorney and a friend."
"'I haven't purposely tried to embellish or rewrite history. I've tried to illustrate points that would create interest,' Dunn explained. 'Combining war stories is simply putting history in little finer packages.'..."
"Dunn's retirement occurred within two weeks of the probe into his storytelling practices by top church officials, who had been given copies of Packer's findings."
"Dunn said 'he cooperated with the church's investigation but was not advised of its conclusions.' 'He denied that it was connected to his retirement, which he insisted was for poor health that has since improved'.... the university [Brigham Young University] terminated Packer's teaching contract, in part because he wanted to publish a story about his findings. "(Arizona Republic, February 16, 1991)
Too bad the Prophet, nor any of the First Presidency or Apostles, or even the other Seventies, or God apparently, knew he was a liar. Or, maybe they did know and just didn't give a damn, because they all do it and they all know it.
I loved the story about the machine gun fire hitting his belt and his pants falling down, his hat getting knocked off his head by a bullet, etc. I mean, it was so beautiful that God would protect Mormons like that, right? He was very entertaining, I'll give him that, but he was a damn liar for the Lord and justified it in his own words. To think that the higher ups had no clue he was fabricating stories is ridiculous!!
Too bad there were so many lies and so much deception. When I heard him talk in person, he was amazing.....at lying that is, but his lies made me feel warm and fuzzy and confirmed that God was amazing and so was his "only true church."
The very thought that anyone would even consider Monson lying, as a possibility or say a bad word about such a perfect, deified man of God, is shocking to your soul, isn't it? How dare I!! Then again, according to you, I prefer evil, darkness and bitterness and Boyd K. Packer says that "Apostates are full of darkness" that you can feel and see and that they are a "DISEASE GERM", so my behavior should be fully expected.
Remember that Apostates like me are very dangerous, in fact, according to the Bishop's handbook of Instructions; I'm more dangerous and higher in the list than predators who are stalking people in your neighborhood. Pretty cool, isn't it?
I wonder why they are so terrified of us? It couldn't be that we figured out the "real truth" could it? Nah, of course not, I don't know what it is...LMAO!!
The truth is, you don't have the slightest clue what is true and what isn't, out of all of the BS they spew. If I did want, or need validation, I certainly wouldn't want it or need it from a complete buffoon that knows nothing about nothing, except that the cult is true and that it's the only true cult on earth, because Joe and your bosom say so.
Remember Anon, I've been on both sides, I've been where you are and you have no idea what it's like to be on my side of the fence. You are 100% ignorant if you think you know what we feel or even have a clue why some of us are so pissed off.
It's also obvious that you are a typical brainwashed, TBM apologist, by the way you just avoid every single good question I've asked or good point that I've made and morphed into a comment about "It's a psychological exercise to make yourself feel better." WTF?
You aren't going to "look into" anything or "study" anything, because you already have all the answers and the "only truth." Good for you!! Guest what? I was once as arrogant and sure of myself and what I believed, as you are right now and I found out that I was wrong and I can admit that.
I was fooled, duped and fell for their lies, hook line and sinker, and now I know the truth and I'm doing something about it. It's not easy to admit this, but hey, it's THE TRUTH and I embrace THE TRUTH!!
Nobody will silence me again is my motto!! After 30 + years of repression, it feels damn good to be able to talk about anything I want to, in regards to the church.
Weren't you the one that engaged me? Did I seek you out? Did I force you to read this and leave comments? What is it that scares you or threatens you so much?
I mean, my stuff is all over the Internet. Where's your stuff that you've written, because I'd love to read it. Do you post on FAIR or maybe RFM or Mormon Discussions? What name do you use? Too afraid to tell me? Am I the only anti-Mormon you have issues with? Somehow I find that hard to believe.
I was really wishing that you were Wade Englund or that he would engage me again some day, and call me and everyone in the world a bigot again, but he seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet and doesn't post anywhere anymore....what a shame, he was such a nice little bigot and more full of hate than anyone I've ever known!!
I mean if you really want to debate the issues, let's go, don't be afraid. After all, you have the only truth on earth in your corner and I only have Satan in mine, right? It should be an easy debate for you to win.
Tell me what you want to debate about and I'll start a new post on it tonight and we can start our debate and let everyone else join in, even those that support you, because I don't censor anyone here, unless they start using racial epithets and the like.
So, the next move is yours and I'm looking forward to our debate and I hope you respond soon, as this will be a lot of fun. Aren't us anti-Mormons fascinating? The TBM Apologists just can't stay away from us...LOL!! I guess without us, you guys wouldn't have anything to do, since defending and making up excuses for the lies of Mormonism is your favorite hobby. Some people like Daniel C. Peterson and others, that are employed by BYU and FARMS, make great money doing it, so they'd really be lost.
So, I guess even though we are very dangerous, dark, disease germs even more dangerous than a predator is; we are "GOOD BUSINESS" for some in Hinckley INC and many would be lost and completely unknown without us. Thank the Mormon God for us Evil, Apostate, anti-Mormons...LMAO!!
Samuel
Come on Sam, switch to decaf!
Oh, pobrecito!! Cult got your tongue?!! You should switch to non-cult...LOL!! By the way, I've never even tasted coffee or tea and I have no desire to, so bzzzzzz...wrong. By the way, I've never tasted alcohol either, since neither of my Parents ever drank, even before converting to the Mormon cult.
Now, this was the exact type of answer I expected from you, because you don't have what it takes to defend your cult or the things I've said or you finally realized that it's a battle that can't be won.
The truth is, nobody can win this battle, as you are fighting a losing battle and "the truth." When you have nothing but lies and fraud in your corner, it's hard to fight the battle. I'm sure you know very little of the "TRUTH" that I've shared with you and that's on my blog.
I know it's shocking, because I've been there and I was devastated, but hey, sometimes you just have to wake up and realize that everything isn't as it once seemed and even the best of us get deceived by the great liars of the world.
Also, I'm just curious, you said, or another Anon said, in response to the Monson issue:
You will have to go back quite a way as this happened long ago.
Do you actually have the evidence? If you do, cough it up and show the world that Mr. Monson told the truth and that a little boy did commit suicide.
Then you(ANON) said, to the other poster:
While your siting, also site your source where Brigham Young said God didn't visit Joseph but sent an angel. Seems you are doing the weaving here.
In my next post, I showed that, plus many other quotes that disprove the First Vision as we now have it. Any response? Have you done your research yet? I was just curious.
By the way, on a serious note, not that you'll care; I just got yet another Email from someone thanking me for my site and for helping them and their spouse in their process of leaving the church.
They are heartbroken and devastated by the lies and fraud that they have discovered, especially Joe's polygamy and the statement by Brigham Young that no one can become a God, or even a Son of God, if they reject polygamy.
Brigham Young said:
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, August 19, 1866.
These people have been active, temple going people for many years and now their own kids, one who has gone on a mission and 2 that are at BYU, basically want nothing to do with them. This is tragic and just another example of why I do what I do and expose the truth here on my sites and podcasts.
They now have to basically plead with their own children, to still love them and let them be apart of their lives. Of course their kids now believe that they can't be together in the next life, because Eternal Families are only in the Celestial Kingdom, where only the near perfect Mormons like you reside. How awful!!
Does any of this even prick your conscience a little bit? Do you care about anyone outside of your little box? Do you care how us Ex-Mormons suffer and the pain we feel when losing family and friends from our life? Do you have any compassion or sympathy at all? Or, are you just glad that you have "the only truth" and know that you will be a Mormon God someday, with zillions of polygamous wives and worlds without number?
Mormonism is a religion(cult) of destruction and separation, if anyone strays from the "one true path" and it is a tragedy. This is nothing to be proud of or something that anyone should want to defend.
The Plan of Salvation, should be renamed the plan of damnation, destruction and suffering, for anyone that doesn't believe it and also for anyone that does believe it and loves someone that doesn't. Free agency? Yeah, only if you use that free agency to be a Mormon.
Maybe you will need to have a best friend or family member leave the church, in order to understand. I only hope you won't cast them off as most family and friends do and as the church hierarchy teaches you to do. Like Brigham Young said, "we are all anti-Christs", if we turn our back on Joey boy and his cult.
Anyway, from your last comment you left, I'm guessing that you have nothing more to say, so best wishes and tell everyone in Chesterton, Indiana, or near there, if that's where you are really from; hi from Utah.
Samuel
My last post was not entirely tongue-in-cheek. I wanted to see how big a response you would give to a short, six-word, post. You responded with 845 words to my 6. That's about a 141 - 1 ratio. My point, seriously, is that you seem to be rather high-strung and could be headed for a major breakdown, hypertension, or what have you.
6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
(Old Testament | Proverbs 18:6)
My other point is you need to have measured responses. Try not to launch into a diatribe every time someone disagrees with you. Even if you believe that person is being facetious, rude, or a complete idiot it serves no purpose to move to that level. One who believes to have truth on their side need not go there. It also can’t be doing much for your own health.
Regarding Brigham Young's polygamy statement...what is wrong with it? Are you saying that since the church banned it in the late 1800s that they essentially cursed all men after that?
No sounds but chriping crickets. The thread is dead.
Look, do me a favor and just invent a damn name for yourself, because there could be 10 anons leaving comments, since I allow Anons, that aren't registered to leave comments. That way, I'll at least think it is you and not somebody else.
Also, please don't try to tell me how to talk, how to write and how to respond to someone. I'll respond however I want and just who the hell do you think you are, to try to control me in any way shape or form. It must be that God in embryo bullshit complex, right? I know, I know, you can't help it, you were just born that way.
I mean, you know that you will be a God someday with innumerable polygamous wives and spirit babies and a God of worlds without numbers, so you are just getting an early jump?
Also, you may consider what I say to be a diatribe and I consider it to be important, completely factual and what I feel like saying. I noticed that you certainly don't want to deal with the majority of what I'm saying, which is fine.
At this point in my journey, I have very low tolerance for those that know the truths and the facts and yet still defend their corrupt cult leaders. Like we promised in the temple; till the death, right?
Just curious, did you go through the temple before the blood oaths were taken out in 1990. I loved agreeing to slit my throat, chest and stomach next to my Dad and friends, while watching my Mom do it across the room...it was so awesome!! Also, that naked touching, right next to my genitals felt great. I think the guy was like 80 and came inches from touching my genitals. Now, that was inspired of God!! Did you enjoy that? Didn't you just feel the spirit and your bosom burning?
Also, please don't pretend to give a shit about my health, when you probably believe that I'm gonna be a "Son of Perdition" or in a lower Kingdom than you. Your facetious concern is a complete insult. By the way, my health has never been better and I've never been happier.
Helping people everyday to deal with their pain or discover the complete truth is a great feeling. Also, the daily Emails I get thanking me, make it all worthwhile.
All I can figure is that I must be peaking your interest or you wouldn't continue leaving comments. Also, do you think you are the only thing I've got going on? Like I live just to respond to you? Again, it's that Mormon "I'm gonna be a God someday" coming out loud and clear.
Finally, I find polygamy to be revolting and morally offensive to me, especially when Joseph the pedophile, was having sex with Little girls as young as 14 and other men's wives. I'm sure you support that and also believe that he had to do it, because that homicidal angel with the flaming sword was gonna kill him, right?
Well, good luck bro and have fun with all those women. I'm guessing that they will be virgins? Joseph..errr...Jesus did teach that sex with virgins wasn't adultery and that he'd destroy Emma if she didn't go with the flow. Gee, I wonder how he justified the "other men's wives?" Oh well, it doesn't matter, it was all authorized by God himself and after all, Joseph claimed to be greater than Jesus Christ, so what's the problem, right?
Oh yeah, and I added the Thomas Monson audio for you, just in case you haven't taken the time to listen to it. See, I'm such a nice guy!!
Samuel
Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:28:03 AM
I must be slipping; my word to your word response ratio is dropping.
As a matter of fact I was on my lunch thank you. Funny how you feel the need to allow anonymous posts, refuse to reveal your own identity, then post information about those whom you lure into thinking that they can comment anonymously.
That said, unless you remove my company information immediately, I will file a formal complaint with blogger.com about your practices. You truly are not an honorable man.
gadiantonslayer@yahoo.com
There, happy?
Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:54:41 PM
Sam,
I see you saw my point and I thank you for responding so quickly. I would suggest that you also remove my mention of the incident in the last post as you don't want anyone to feel like they can't say what's on their mind. After all that's what blogging is about.
gadiantonslayer@yahoo.com
There you go Gadiantonslayer, feel all better now? By the way, there was nothing wrong or illegal with what I did, as nobody forced you to come onto my site, from your workplace and I'm not responsible for your stupidity and carelessness.
Everybody with a brain and eyes, can see the counter at the bottom of the page and knows that it allows me to see who was online and on my site. I rarely use it for anything but to check how many people have been on each week/month, etc. If you didn't know that, you just learned something. If you don't want people to know who you are or where you are logging in from, then you need to learn how to surf anonymously or with a proxy. Just because you make your information known to me, through my website, isn't my problem, rather yours.
I'm sure you'll still go whine to Blogger like a big baby, because that's what people like you do. Of course, you couldn't Email me and just ask me nicely to do it, rather you had to threaten me, because again, that is what people like you do. You are also not an honorable, stand-up man.
Anyway, go ahead and do what you want. I'm sure they'd try to educate you about how you could have prevented it from happening in the first place in an Internet 101 course. I have never done what I did to you to anyone else, but quite frankly, I was sick of your arrogance and insults and insinuations that I'm an idiot.
In any case, I removed the information to be nice and as a courtesy for you and now you have nothing to bitch or cry about. Did it bring you down a peg or two and lesson your outright arrogance just a tad? I hope so. I just wanted to point out that I can fight fire with fire, and get just as nasty as you, if that is the route you want to take.
So, if you don't like me, can't handle me, don't want to answer my questions and deal with my facts and truths, then maybe we should end this conversation and agree to disagree. I have ZERO respect for you and you obviously feel the same exact way about me, so let's move on pal. You were the one egging me on today, wanting a response, which I didn't intend to do(since you're a waste of my time), so you got one, didn't you?
For people that respect me, I respect them. For those that act like arrogant jerks(God's in embryo), I return the favor and that is exactly what happened in your case.
Good luck with your TBM lifestyle and always remember; you engaged me, not me you and you came onto my site and challenged me, not the other way around.
You said:
"No sounds but chriping crickets. The thread is dead."
Well, I guess the "chriping crickets" went away, didn't they?!!
Let me end with one of your quotes, that seems to fit this situation:
"That's perfectly ok. We understand that all you are looking for is validation that you didn't screw up big time. It's a psychological exercise to make yourself feel better."
Just curious, were you the Anon that called me an idiot twice and "really dumb" and then asked if I had AADD and said, "let the libel suit begin?"
Maybe I associated some of this with you and if it wasn't you, I do apologize. I noticed that you did say at one point, if that Anon was you, "You're an idiot" is hardly a legitimate response."
You see, it's a little difficult when I'm having a debate with several Anons who are too stupid to create some name to differentiate themselves from the others. By the way, in case you didn't notice, you can leave a response with a name and not be registered. Try clicking the "other circle" in the middle and maybe we can avoid this confusion in the future.
Capiche?!!
Have fun in your cult!!
(I just saw your last post and I'm not gonna remove it, because I have nothing to hide in this regard.
If people really want to be completely anonymous, even from me, they will take the necessary and intelligent actions(as most do), to do so, unlike you did. Quit blaming others for your lack of forethought. Also, you were a very special case, that nobody else has matched before...so congrats!!)
Samuel
Samuel:
Never once did I call you an idiot. I can tell by the frustration expressed in many of your posts that you have dealt with plenty of people who respond in such a manor. If anything I posted antagonized you I apologize. (And you're correct, when it comes to blogging I'm an idiot newbie. I mean, I knew that obviously you could tell from whence the posts came, I just never thought you would post the info. I think you have taught me a valuable lesson there.)
I really would like to learn more about your experiences via email if you're willing to do so. If not, that's okay too. I'd just like to start over with you and promise I will never use derogatory expressions; always keeping it civil.
gadiantonslayer@yahoo.com
So, the "really dumb" and then wondering "if I had AADD" and "let the libel suit begin", was you right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a friend that suffers with AADD and it's not a comment I consider to be very funny, or something to say in jest, since I've seen how he suffers with it.
If any one of those terms were yours, I would definitely call that "antagonistic." But hey, it's over with and believe it or not, I prefer to keep it civil and apology accepted. Like I said, if I mistook another Anon's comments for yours, I apologize too. After 15 months of this, I have a pretty short fuse with these type of people and ZERO tolerance.
I just treated you like all the others that call me every name in the book, defend the church at any cost and then share their testimony with me about how true the church is, that I should use Moroni's promise, but that I'm going to burn in hell and be a son of perdition.
Please allow me to share a sampling of what I've been called, by mostly, supposed temple going, testimony sharing, die-hard Mormons, that say I'm screwed now. Maybe this will help you and others understand better why I get hostile quickly with people that I perceive to be from this group of lovely individuals.
I've been called a "son of perdition", "the spawn of Satan", "the devil", "one of Satan's angels", "a rapist", "demonic", "worse than a murderer", "pure evil", "Satan", "Satan's Helper", "I punch a time clock for Satan every morning", "I'm too angry", "weak", “highly offensive”, “I use pornographic pictures on my sites”, “I use F-bombs everywhere on my blog and in my podcasts”, "pathetic", "a liar", "a homosexual", "a fag", "a bastard", "SOB", "drug addict", "piece of f'n shit" "covering up big sins", "wanting to sin", "an alcoholic", and most recently, along with dick and asshole, that "I should check into pedophilia as an alternative lifestyle", because of my willingness to defend and stand up for homosexuals and their rights; and many more other, even more offensive terms, all starting with the F bomb. So, when people say that I'm overreacting or too angry...I'm like..."do you even know me pal?!!"
I have several people that are advocating my death or look forward to the day I die. One warned me of my impending death, "which would come soon." People wonder why I have to remain anonymous?!!
These are the type of people that Mormonism(and in some cases, Christianity) create. It’s sad but true!! These people actually consider themselves to be disciples of Jesus Christ.....really?!! Now, that’s sadly laughable, isn’t it? Maybe disciples of Satan or something, but not Jesus, or some loving God.
I'm guessing that most of these people, that write these offensive things, are RMs, go to their Church every Sunday, take the Sacrament, have temple recommends and go to the temple regularly, shout to the world that they are Christians, have given their lives to Christ, have been born again, etc. I will not put my family and friends at risk anymore than I already have, especially with these freak-shows walking around, that would love to possibly use Brigham Young's blood atonement on me or my family or friends. It's simply not worth it!!
I would love to continue this through Email. I get over 100 Emails a week, but I'll try to make time for you, because I'd really like you to know why I believe what I believe. I guess I'm kind of like the Oklahoma temple President and his wife, that both recently resigned their calling and church membership. It's happening to a lot of us and we didn't commit some huge sin, rather, we discovered the truth about the lies and deception. We feel betrayed and are pissed off at the betrayal and everything that we freely gave to the Mormon cult, in the name of lies.
I get Emails everyday thanking me, but also that break my heart, like the one I shared the other night in my comment. There is a lot of pain out there and families are being ripped apart and the Mormon Hierarchy is right in the middle of it all, with smiles on their faces and their hands out and I find it to be tragic.
I also follow several missionary blogs that tear me up, because they suffer so much and go without so many necessities.
Well, take care and I'll see you in Email.
Samuel
Samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com
Not the "really dumb" one, but the other two you mentioned, yes. And for that I do apologize. (Especially the AADD one, that was insensitive to those really suffering from it.) And from reading the list of names you've been called I can well understand your readiness to do battle with anyone who even remotely appears to be heading in that direction.
Anyway, see you in email.
Tom
So I just happened to stumble upon your blog as I was looking for a quote by Thomas S. Monson.
I was really shocked by all your comments. But also, I know that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and have their own reasons for turning from the church.
I'm just interested in knowing why you turned away and feel such animosity for the church?
You're very well written and I fully respect your right to have your own opinion, but I think what these people are trying to say is they're hurt by your comments. These are things (such as faith in modern day revelators) that are very dear to people, and were once dear to you. Why the change?
Maybe this is something you should keep in a journal instead of publicizing to the world and stealing away their oportunity to judge the gospel for themselves. Just a thought.
Just read a little of what you have written. Won't be back to read your response because, quite frankly, your are not worth my time. But, who is the one with the agenda. Who has a closed mind, you do. Every day in my Christian LDS faith I ask myself for more truth. To know more truth, and find more truth, to build on what I have already found.
You on the other hand have conveniently lost all that you ever had as the Savior said would happen. I feel sorry for you and hope someday in this life you will see the truth, for surely in the next you will be judged by the Lord and found wanting.
Have a great rest of your life with so much HATE in all you do. I don't see anyone being happy hating so much. Your really are a "sad sorry little man"...
Hey, Sammy are you for real or is your bio a fraud? How do we know if you really served a mission or graduated from BYU and were married in the temple or you are just some seminar Mormon hater who made all that up to give your venemous diatribes some perception of credibility?
By the way it doesn't work. You come across as as sour, bitter and small. Come on and come clean. Tell the truth about yourself. Tell us what has turned you into the hate monger you are. Was it a moral transgresion, cheating on your wife? Addiction to porn? You seem to have a lot to say about all the faults you perceive in the church leaders and members. In the interest of full disclosure I think you should enlighten your readers with a full list of yours! Don't forget to include, how many times, multiple partners, did you enjoy it or is the guilt eating you up inside? Did your wife leave you? Did you make your mother cry? Anyone who has so much hatred for others must truly hate himself.
It really is true what Neal Maxwell said about so many who leave the church but just can't "leave it alone" Very sorry about your bad experience with your bishop at BYU. By the way you sould really consider making a donation to BYU to repay the subsidized portion of the excellent education you received there.
To the last fucking idiot that posted here, this is exactly what happened:
I followed your beloved Prophet Kimball's plan from The Miracle Of Forgiveness: I got really into porno, which led to massive masturbation and then to circle jerks(jacking off with other guys), which led to homosexuality and then I started to fuck animals and I got caught by my Stake President fucking all the cows in his backyard, in an all out bestiality orgy from Kolob.
So yeah, the asshole excommunicated me and now I'm just really bitter and angry, even though I know the church is true, because I can't overcome my porno, masturbation, circle jerking, homosexual, bestiality problems.
I tried to do Cocaine for a while, since Dallin H. Oaks agrees that overcoming porno addiction is far more difficult than overcoming hard drugs like Cocaine or Meth and it just got me into more trouble, as I got stoned and still looked at porno and fucked male animals, since I'm now a homosexual.
Does that answer your questions dumbass and meet your expectations of what your fucked up leaders have brainwashed you to believe about us ex-Mormons?
So now, go take what I wrote and put it all over the Internet, to prove that ALL ex-Mormons leave due to sin and no other reasons, like discovering that Mormonism is nothing but a fraudulent cult based on lies, corruption and adultery.
I'm sure you're fine with Joseph Smith fucking a 14 year old and other men's wives in the name of God though, right?
LMFAO...the lovely fruits of Mormonism!!
Samuel
bro you honestly don't have much to do in your life but tear apart things with no good intentions, honestly dude you need to really think about what you do and if the things you do don't have a positive or helpful finish to it then your doing some things wrong. You are entitled to your own opinion so i respect that, have fun man trying to do what ever your tryin to accomplish, Ciao
President Monson is going to be the next LDS Prophet? Really?... wow that is new. I didn't want to keep reading after that. Second most "Powerful" man?... since President Hinckley is the first one... How about remebering he is "Responsable for the whole worlds" as well? ;)
Everything you see that is not there, only reflects the way you are.
Anyway, about you being an idiot. I don't know, I don't know you so I Don't know that, but your post is rather silly to say the least.
oh... and.... That is all I have to say about that... ;)
"oh say what is truth?"
The one and only confirmation of truth is the Holy Spirit, and so if you have been a member you've at one point in time or another have probably felt this. And perhaps by your choice of actions have either denied or lost that uniqe gift. John 14:26 "But the comforter which is the Holy Ghost,..he will teach you all things, and bring all things unto your rememberance."
President Monson is going to be the next LDS Prophet? Really?... wow that is new. I didn't want to keep reading after that. Second most "Powerful" man?...
Hey Leonardo...are you even Mormon or do have the slightest clue about the procession in the Mormon Hierarchy? Well, the question is moot, because it's obvious that you don't have a clue and the question was just rhetorical anyway.
So, let me walk you through how it works; men(who are normally well connected to past Mormon Apostles or Prophets) are called to be Mormon Apostles and if they end up out living everyone else that has more seniority then they do...drum roll please...THEY BECOME THE MORMON PROPHET!! Doh!!
So, you see, Gordon "the fraud" Hinckley, wasn't CALLED to be the Prophet, rather he just got lucky and didn't die before the other old farts of fraud died. Capiche?!!
Hey, but don't worry about it, because I love being able to educate uneducated Mormon cultists about their own cult, which they really know NOTHING about.
Also, I know Thomas S. Monson personally(he has no idea how I feel about the church or what I'm doing and ZERO "spirit of discernment") and he's a liar, a fraud and a complete phony and this talk is proof of his bullshit ways. Thomas S. Monson is a piece of shit, that did nothing to protect this kid, if this story or ANY of his stories are even real or ever happened.
I hope in this case, he was just lying again and that some little boy, who tragically killed himself, didn't really make "Tommy" feel good about himself, just because he didn't "sign the petition." What an arrogant, pompous ASSHOLE he is!!
Take care and I hope I helped,
Samuel
Wow,
I do not know why you have such harsh feelings against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but you seem to be fault finding. I have met president Monson as well and I know that he is a good man. I have met several of the brethern and I know that they are good people who, yes are normal men like you and I. However, they have been given a special calling and are special witness of the Savior Jesus Christ for us in these latter days.
Now, as for fault finding. If anyone worked hard enough they could find faults with anything. On the other hand, it is the fault of that man.
I feel so sorry for you; you've obviously lost the light and every capacity to think....
GET A LIFE!!!!! YOU'RE NOW OUT OF THE CHURCH, THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT NOW MOVE ON. THE FACT YOU'RE ALWAYS CHECKING OUT WHAT CHURCH OFFICIALS DO AND SAY SHOWS A PART OF YOU IS STILL THERE AS IT WAS BEFORE. REPENT BROTHER
As a new church member of lds, I would be totally scared if I saw this blog last year and my faith on our church might be destroyed. But now I feel like that I could not be persuaved by your excellant but hasty logic analysis. Everyone has the right to speak out their own feelings. If you were hurt by any person or any terrible experiences. Let them go. God loves you even if you just have a little bit dim faith on him. Try to call upon God and back to him again. Even you have totally lost your faith on our church, just come to God and Jesus Christ that if you know deep in your mind that the Gospel is true. Do you remember the feelings that you cried last time by the promoting of the holly spirit?Find it out and clap off the dust on it, you know its true.....God will never give up on you. You do not have to have faith on our church, but just have faith on God and Jesus Christ.
ok, so i gave up on reading your whole page but i think ive got the point. and what i see isnt pretty. HWy do you think that smashing people's religion is going to make you feel any better? call me naive but, it hurts me to think that you could have ever been a missionary of the church that i so firmly believe. nothing you can say about the LDS church could make me think any less of it. In fact everything you have said has only made me feel negitivly towrds you. The lack of evidence you have shown shows me that you lack seriously in charchter. someone who makes themselves feel good by using crude laguage and insulting people and their beleifs is a coward in my book. i dont know what the church ever did to you but i know it has to be beyond something someone said in a general conferance. i am very sorry something happened to you and you allowed your pride to get in the way and i only hope you can one day see the truth.
just some teenager
I am sad to see that it is true, they can leave the Church but they can't leave it alone.
My family and I joined this church three years ago, knowing and understanding faults within. We joined because of the quality of people. We went to church every Sunday for 8 months and had to stop because of the fake tears and people saying "the one true church". We've since gone to other churches and have not found the same family atmosphere. I do believe in the Book of Mormon. I think Joseph Smith took advantage of his power that he had towards others and I do not like that.
Righ now I am not happy with all the things but like the people.
We do notice if we step outside of the church we aren't spoken to and ignored and in some cases treated very poorly.
We've gotten our temple reccomends three times and have chosen not to go because we don't want to make promises to God that we cannot keep.
I am sorry for the person who started this post that you cannot find any good the last 30 years has brought you. It is up to you to make your life what it is. And if others find peace in the church let them, why do you have to try and upset others so much.
You will probably call me stupid for going to the LDS church but it all works out in the end and when we die we will find out what really wen on down here.
So for the mean time, I have friends both in the church and out, I will continue to do the best I can and treat others with kindness.
I read that Monson is soon to be the next president (Hinkley died today)and found this blog. I am not a Mormon and have recently moved to Utah. Something that I noticed is that so many "good" LDS people lie about such trivial things with such regularity. Whether the paperboy story is true or not, it does seem to fit the habit with LDS people that I have witnessed since coming to Utah.???
I'm really surprised at the number of adversaries you have Samuel.
Well Monson will soon have his day on that high throne as the prophet of the LDS church. Hinckley died yesterday.
I agree with Samuel that he should have had a greater insight given his position.
I am here to affirm that the Mormon church is false and the teachings of Joseph Smith and the LDS church have not a hint of truth.
It is important to understand to state that the Mormon church is not true is NOT bashing another's religion. For one to say the Mormon church is true is bashing the faith of the true Christians.
The other day a couple missionaries from the LDS church came to my door. When I explained I, myself, do not count them among Christians one of the missionaries took great exception. I tried to explain to him that we do not know the same Jesus. I explained like this. I asked if the knew Juan. He said he did and explained who the guy was. "Oh yeah, he lives just around the corner. He's a great guy." I explained to him this wasn't the Juan I was talking about. The Juan I was talking about has never been to Idaho. Obviously for a moment one might think we were on the same page and talking about the same guy. So it is when Mormons talk about Jesus. My Jesus that I worship, my God, and Lord and Saviour had no reason to come to North America and did not. It must be concluded the Jesus of the Mormons is a different Jesus than the Saviour of the Christians.
It is hard to not take offense when people talk about things such as faith for ANY religion. The purpose of this link is to discuss the talk that Monson gave. The talk he gave was about being non judgmental and treating others with kindness. Which obviously is not adhered to on this blog. You can take many things out of context and try to make it look bad. He has maybe 15-20 minutes to give a talk. So his talk is to the point. As to some of the other posts..... These men (Brigham Young, Thomas Monson, Joseph Smith, ect.) aren't PERFECT no man save ONE was and to think that someone would or could be PERFECT just because they hold a leadership position in a church is laughable. I have no doubt that Thomas Monson, or Brigham Young at MANY points in their lives made mistakes or SINNED. The cool part about this is the attitude of your posts. Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus? Then go out and preach Jesus’ message of LOVE. As for DanielinIdaho's comment... talking about anything besides love, understanding, and peace is contrary to Jesus’ message and bashing YOUR OWN religion. It pains me to see many Mormons and people of other religions letting a blog bring out the worst in them. Preach the truth about Christ if your truth is not the same as others then let the truth speak for itself and back it up. Don't speak poorly of other religions. Please. After all is said and done the only way ANY of us make it back is through HIS GRACE! All Religions professing to be Christians at least believe in that. I love you guys.
This is an awesome blog. What is interesting is that so many TBM claim to live their religion, but in reality--only "do it for the blessings.".
I have been trying to come out of the "church" for six years-but don't want to leave my husband tied to this cult.
Monson has never said anything worthwhile or that I couldn't read for myself in some children's book.
It's all about "self-fulfilling" prophecy and "grasping after godhood" which is wrong.
Thanks
So you can only believe truth based on physical evidence? Try not thinking. Your brain has polluted your existence and diminished your relevance. Our life on earth is short, thankfully, and to continue to live is intelligence. A God, a Savior, a Holy Spirit has nothing to do with religion. Life is about being. Eternity is an understanding of space. These are principles only understood by the enlightend and contained in the fulness of God's gospel. Understand it or not it is the only truth on earth today that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You should not condemn yourself or feel small due to people that may be empowered by God to carry his purpose forward. Stop thinking and open your existence to space and eternal offerings of God. Only then can you rid yourself of this odor of disdain and failure. I wish you well.
I am a young woman in the Young Women's in the church, and coming across your sight, I must say I was shocked. I have no idea what made you hate the "Mormons" so much! You should know that we are not the church of Mormon, we are the LDS members of the Church of Christ. I respect your right to an opinion, and I hope you respect my right to hear me out. Gordon B. Hinckley has just died, and I have never in my life felt the spirit so strong that he and Thomas S. Monson, and every other apostle of God is just that, an apostle of God. They are here to guide us, but what you forget, is that Thomas S. Monson is human. God isn't going to tell him every little thing that's going on in the world. It was not Brother Monson's mistake that that young boy committed suicide. He was simply making the statement that that is what cruel words can do to someone. Certainly the words did not help this boy in his quest to live, but do you know any of the other parts of the story? Perhaps the young boy had been abused or had low self esteem to begin with? Just because Brother Monson is an authority figure of the church, it was not his personal responsibilty to track down the boy, and if it had been, God would have made it known to him. What about all the other people who have commited suicide? Does an apostle magically appear to save them? NO! The only person who knows what God is thinking is God himself. It is God's choice to tell us something like that. How can you provide the "facts" when you only provide one side of the story? I think that your website is childish and very immature. I'm sorry for whatever reason you left the church, but I know it is true. I can't say anything more than that, because I'm sure by this time, you've already stopped reading. You're too narrow minded to see any other way. The more you try to convince me that this church is not true, the more I believe. God does love you. He wants what is best for all of us. I know that this church is the best for me at least. Thank you for hearing me out.
One must have a very narrow mind indeed to interperate the talk like that...I pity the person...and the people who actually believe it.....
Please stop wasting oxygen. Your article is as useless to society as you are.
Samuel. Thank you for your opinion about what happened to this little boy. Which by the way is truly sad.
I don't agree with what you posted here, for several reasons, the main one:
1. God will not interfer with our free agency. So, even President Monson would have known about the little Kid's will, he would have not been able to do anything.
The fact that President Monson receives revelation, doesn't make him guilty of any suicide in the world, even if one of this suicides would be one of a person directly related to him.
Wow, it still amazes me that someone would really take their time to set up such a disgustingly negative site. For someone who hates mormons so much you sure are OBSESSED! You really should check your facts before your rants. Good luck in life man, you'll need it. And don't bother replying like you did to the other guy, because I sure won't be checking.
May you be blessed with love and a forgiving heart. May you feel the love of our Savior Jesus Christ
I don't know why I am constantly surprised at how fast mormons attack when they feel threatened, if even only by an opinion that is different than their own. I think this article is brilliantly written and, while I happen to agree 90% with Samuel, it makes me sick to read some of the comments that followed. If this article had been written from another point of view; as a force-chewed, swallowed and regurgitated reiteration of what the mormon church expects us all (LDS or not) to accept as "the way it is with no exception", then I'm certain the feedback would have been much different. Whatever level of spirituality, faith or devotion a person has to whichever organization they choose is, in my eyes, worthy of God's love. In the mormon church, the eleventh Article of Faith alleges, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may". May I suggest the mormons put that beautiful sentiment into action? I have yet to see it.
I am sorry that you are so bitter. Clearly you are in the depths of apostasy. Simply put, we are all required to live christlike and good no matter what religon we are. We good does it do to attack people like Thomas Monson? Do you even know how much good he has done? Maybe before you attack, you should do your research.
It seems that your blog is really only a forum to express your anger and profanity.
I will keep you in my prayers and pray that your heart will be softened. We were never required to be perfect, I know that I'm not. I try to live my life the best that I can, but fall short many times.
I simply ask that if you chose to follow a different path, please respect the people that chose to follow their path.
May god bless you and keep you safe.
And Katie, free speech does alow people to post lies and deceit. Do you think it's fair for him to attack Monson without talking to him. If I started talking about you and telling lies, don't you think you would want to have that respect for me to talk to you first instead of blasting you to the depths of hell?
You said that you grew up in the church and never questioned it's truthfulness. I believe that worked to your disadvantage, because you obviously never took the steps to gain a testimony of your own. Instead, you lived on the borrowed light of your parents' testimonies and never acquired the spiritual witness of your own so when the winds of the world "beat upon your house", it fell.
Unlike yourself, I did not grow up in a member family. I was converted to the gospel after much prayer and fasting to know the truth just as Moroni promises.
I feel that as a returned missionary, you should understand as well as anyone that the Lord "suffereth the righteous to be slain, that his righteous judgments may be brought upon the wicked." The fact that no one actually murdered this boy is beside the point.
I don't know if you will take heed to this but I admonish you to go back to the basics. Prayerfully read the Book of Mormon as taught by Moroni. I bear witness that the Book of Mormon is true.
dg, exactly where did I "attack"? And where, please was I "profane"? You must be talking about someone else. This is exactly what I'm talking about. As long as people accept without question, everything is fine. But the second someone dares to have a different opinion, they are accused of being "profane", "angry", "hard hearted", "bitter", "disrespectful" and, what was it? Blasting people into the depths of hell? Where did I ever do such things?
You say you are not perfect. Yes. But you also say "we were never required to be perfect". Would you please read Matthew 5:48? Maybe you can find some insight there. YOU attacked ME. I merely expressed an opinion of a story I read. I never said anything disrespectful about Mr. Monson.
Good luck to you.
Samuel,
Well, it is not just brother Monson you have accused of lying about the story. By extension you have accused his wife of being a liar since she, not brother Monson was the main protagonist in the story.
Since you have said that "I personally know Thomas Monson and he's a nice guy personally", and you've also admitted "... I don't have the evidence that it happened or that it didn't happen"
You really owe an apology to Brother Monson and his wife for maligning their honesty and good character without one shred of evidence.
As far as I'm concerned, you haven't proved anything unflattering about Brother Monson, other than "he's a nice guy" and that you wish you had proof that he is a liar but unfortunately you can't find any.
Robert
I think its really sad that you have lost your faith. Have you prayed earnestly about your decision? If not, why don't you go back to church really listen to the wonderful testimonies of the members around you. Listen to the teachings of the true prophet. Then try praying. But instead of saying, "I don't think that this church is true, and if you don't give me physical proof, then I will never believe again." Try saying, "Heavenly Father, I have had struggles and I'm not sure if your teachings are true. Please help me to know what the truth is."
As I'm sure you were taught in many classes, Heavenly Father will not provide miracles for people who do not believe. Why should he waste his time on someone who just doubts him? So please spend some time in this and really "search, ponder, and pray" about the problem that you are having.
As for trying to ruin other people's faith, that is a tragedy. If you don't think that this church is true, then that's your own problem. This should be your struggle. You really shouldn't try to ruin someone else's faith just because you lost yours.
I know that if you truly give prayer and thought into this decision you have made instead of being so negative, you will find that this is the only true church.
interesting site and it's clear some folks have some very interesting points of view pro and con... I have never understood why people feel it necessary to rant and rave though. You left the Mormon Church, leave it at that. Religion, what a hoot!
Samantha Dear,
Only a coward would sit behind his keyboard and sling the twisted truth the way you do. You should take your load of crap down to one of the local Tongan wards. Or, maybe one day you and I could meet in the octagon. What do ya say, fruitcake? I’m sure there will be some snappy comeback and maybe even some more of the colorful metaphors. You, Samantha, are a REAL MAN! I can see you already sitting there behind your keyboard speaking to yourself in that rather distinctive lisp, “I show him fruitcake. I call him a BLEEP! And a BLEEP BLEEP! I am a real man. I am Sam, and I am”, TRULY LOST! I’m just messing with you Samantha. You’re a spineless coward that probably cries a lot and wishes he could have all that you lost a few years ago—Integrity and such. Maybe you will find it and maybe you won’t, but this path you are on will not help you find what you are looking for.
Talk to you soon, Sammy the Sissy.
Sammy, Sammy, Sammy,
In all your efforts to devastate and chip away at the faith of others, you have only enlightened us faithful to one valid fact—that you, Sammy, have become truly lost. You may no longer have faith in the Savior, His teachings, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but why would you, an educated and, possibly once, intelligent man spend you free time trying to destroy the faith of others? Why do lost souls like yourself divide your time between trying to find yourself, again, and trying to help others lose their way? Does it make you feel better creating more of the profane and angry? Does misery love company? I am truly disappointed in you, Sammy. Why do you do that which you do, Sammy? Please enlighten us to that which led you down this path that will have a certainty that little Sammy could never imagine. All of these vices and influences that you now introduce your thoughts and imagination to will never conjure up the truth of your inevitable finality. It has been said the kingdom of heaven is beyond human comprehension. The same can be said about hell. But, of course, it will not be bliss.
I have tried to read through all your many ramblings, but was struggling with your newly found use of the English language. Do you kiss you wife and kids with that mouth? Probably not since 2004, I would bet. How is the alcohol treating you these days, Sammy? We all feel lost from time to time the way you always feel these days, Sammy—but not for the same reasons. You see, Sammy, you feel lost because you are doing that which is dire.
I hope that you will soon do that which is right. Will are all very sorry for your loss and hope that you will find yourself again someday.
Alma 24: 30
30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.
I don't know what happened to you for you to lose your faith but I feel sad for you. I have had close friends leave the church and I seen their life only filled with so much hurt since they lost their membership. Our members are not perfect because people are not perfect. We are taught to believe in the gospel and not in the members. No one that lived on this earth is perfect excluding Christ. You have the right to believe what you want but it is sad that you spend so much of your life bashing other people beliefs. These men that run the LDS church are amazing smart beautiful people and your argument with Pres Monson is stupid and I believe that you were just trying to find SOMETHING on a wonderful Christlike man. You need to look within yourself and learn to love all whatever their beliefs are and stop bashing someone's beliefs.
"I would hope that a little boy did not commit suicide, and that Monson lied, while you hope he did tell the truth and that little boy did commit suicide. Now that's extremely sad, isn't it!!"
That is such an unfair comment in the context of this conversation. A person can be glad the story was true (if it was, I have no idea) without being in any way glad that the boy committed suicide.
As for the original post, please. I do find the story a bit over-dramatic and self-serving. None of the people who signed the petition could reasonably have foreseen that it would result in suicide. But then that also includes the Monsons. You're talking like they could have saved the boy's life and didn't, but who in their right mind would think that writing a letter asking a kid to try harder to throw a paper straight would be a life and death matter? They might not have wanted to sign it, but are you suggesting that they should have actively campaigned to stop people writing a simple letter of complaint? Until you look at the situation in hindsight, to have done so would have been ludicrous.
As for the question of inspiration, I'm not sure what I think about that. Maybe he isn't inspired. But there's no proof either way in the story he told. You can't prove that someone isn't inspired (whether religiously or psychically or otherwise) based on the fact that they weren't so on one particular occasion. That's like saying you have proof someone can't ride a bike because you saw them fall off one time.
I feel so sorry for you.
President Monson is a wonderful man and will be a wonderful leader of the church.
Get help soon!
Well, well. I think that you made a great statement about Monson. He did nothing to stop the petition and now the boy is dead!. Seems to me a man in his position (for all these years) would see the compassion instead of the copout!!!!!!
I just wonder... why, with all these anti-mormons, would the Church of Latter-day Saints still stand firm and strong?
Anyone who knows about the 17 points of a true church?
let's have some break from all of these guys and let's "thank thee o God for a prophet"...
I just want to leave my 2 cents about a previous quote from the journal of discourses by Brigham Young. I don't presume to know for sure, but just consider this idea with a possible interpretation of the pronouns:
"The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven in power and great glory, nor send his messengers panoplied with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek, the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere enquirer after the knowledge of God. But he [the LORD] did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jr., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and [He](the LORD also) informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that he had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before him.
take it for what it's worth, but i see no reason the prounouns might not refer to what I have put in brackets, and as such, has no contradiction as to weather or not it was Jesus who appeard to Joseph in the first vision.
Pronouns can be very hard to interpret sometimes, especially in older documents where people who recorded them can't be asked to clarify their meanings.
I just want to leave my 2 cents about a previous quote from the journal of discourses by Brigham Young. I don't presume to know for sure, but just consider this idea with a possible interpretation of the pronouns:
"The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven in power and great glory, nor send his messengers panoplied with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek, the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere enquirer after the knowledge of God. But he [the LORD] did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jr., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and [He](the LORD also) informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that he had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before him.
take it for what it's worth, but i see no reason the prounouns might not refer to what I have put in brackets, and as such, has no contradiction as to weather or not it was Jesus who appeard to Joseph in the first vision.
Pronouns can be very hard to interpret sometimes, especially in older documents where people who recorded them can't be asked to clarify their meanings.
Ususally when people leave the church and are so vocal against it is because they are having trouble keeping the commandments they know to be true. Which commandment are you having trouble with? you don't need to answer, I won't come back to this site every again to read it.
Samual
My heart is heavy and my sorrow great for your soul. I believe there is little anyone can say to help ease your mind and relent regarding your opinion of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. Don't get me wrong, I am not attempting to persuade you to change your veiws or opinions. I am however expressing MY VEIW based on past experiences.
My father has no time for the Church and goes to great lengths in expressing this to me(as I am a member currently). This he does because of a bad experience he encountered with his home teachers 'several' years ago. What I have come to observe with others who hold the same veiw as my father, resultant from similar experiences with other church members, is that they go to extraordinary lengths to discount The Church and its teachings. This is especially so if one believes they have been offended by a member in a position of responsibility.
It would seem to me that you appear to have a personal vendetta to disprove the Church and its leaders without fear of the consequences. Yes, there are consequences to all of our actions. My concern for you is what consequences you may face as a result of your antagonist veiws and opinions. I feel a deep concern for you brother and would like to express my love for you as a brother. I don't seek to disprove you or correct you. I seek only to be able to understand you a little more. As with my father, I never get into a debate with him about the Church, but rather to enjoy him as my father and show him the respect he deserves as my father. Nothing less.
Life is too short to be engaged in such trivial sqaublings and we are all entitled to our opinions so long as we don't encroach on those of others(as Hitler did). Enjoy your life with your loved ones and share as many moments as possible with them in joy, appreciation and happiness.
Samuel, I stumbled accross this blog by accident and although I will never return to it I thought I'd give you some advise. Get a girlfriend, watch TV, play some sport, do something that does not involve sitting at your computer, typing looooong responses designed to breakdown the Mormon faith as well as prove how wrong the mormons are. In fact you are so lame that I laughed at most of what I read (didn't read everything because you're not that good and not very entertaining). But seriously, get a life. Maybe I will come back to this blog to show some of my friends so that they can also have a good laugh. IN fact I can just picture you getting all upset as you read this, wishing you could come back and say some "clever" thing back to me. Write whatever you want, I won't ever see it and I'll shut down my computer tonight still thinking you were pathetic. How old are you, I assume well over 30, but yet you spend your time on this sort of thing. Enjoy your embarrassing life. I and by the way, I happen to be an ex mormon myself, but have better things to do than try and run down the church.
My heart is heavy right now. I wish I could respond to you individually and yet am unsure what would come of it. I fear I will not have adequate words to fully express my feelings and belief, but am compelled to make the attempt anyway.
I have recently stumbled upon many web pages, blogs and articles. criticizing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Some are written by skeptical members of the church, some by disillusioned members, some by former members, and some by people who have never been members of the church. Much to some of you alls dismay, my faith in the Restoration of Jesus Christ's Gospel has not faltered. While reading some of your harsh accusations and attempts at uncovering my eyes to your perceived truth, I have realized even more deeply my personal conviction.
You certainly are driven to share your opinions. Most of your sites are impressively organized,sometimes factual, and frequently updated with your research on the history of the church and its people. It is interesting the feelings I get when I enter one of your sites. I read a comment or post that so purposefully makes fun of something I hold sacred, I get upset, frustrated at your disrespect and misinterpretation, and then I feel sadness. Not because you are "opening my eyes" to the "real church" that I have been "brain washed" into believing in. Not sad for myself in anyway... Really, I feel sad for you. The motive of the information you share does not seem to be out of love. It does not seem to be shared for the purpose of helping others come closer to Christ, who Himself is LOVE. In fact, most of what I read seems to be driven by the opposite, hatred and disdain. I feel sad for what your life must be like, being filled with such hatred for something. I find it rather interesting that people can be so devoted to tearing something or someone down. I wonder what experiences you have had that have lead you to your conclusions. You make it very clear what it is that you do not believe, and because of this, it is hard for me to understand what it is that you DO believe. Your dedication to denouncing the LDS church seems to overshadow your personal convictions.
I believe that all men have a right to believe and worship how they desire. While I have strong convictions that differ from other people, I have no desire and no time to dedicate an entire blog to breaking down what's wrong with their beliefs. There is far too much truth for me to discover to take the time to meddle in all the untruths of the world.
Let's just say for a moment that my religion is what you say it is, a hoax. How are you personally drawing closer to God by spreading it's message of falsehoods? A Math teacher could not help students progress if she only taught the wrong answers ie. 2+2 does not equal 9. Why spend so much of your time focusing on what you consider not to be the way to heaven? Why not respectfully let us just carry on in our beliefs as you would allow any other church?
Could this be because it is not just any Church? If it were it would simply be left alone. (see Acts 5:38-39)
I have met many people of all faiths who sincerely believe in Christ and are striving so honestly to know Him. The invitation to Come Unto Christ is given to all men everywhere. I would never want someone to feel degraded or disrespected in their efforts to worship Christ. I do however, invite the honest, humble seeker, to ask God for themselves about The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and it's claims to be Christ's church, one again on the earth. For having this knowledge has made my Coming unto Christ all the easier (although I am certainly still struggling and striving).
I would so much appreciate your respect and toleration of what may appear an extremely bold religion. It is an extremely bold religion.
I hope you will forgive the imperfections of the people who practice it.
If it is true, that Christ has brought back His authority on the earth, it's a miracle.
And It is true.
I wish you well on your journey.
"Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them..." (Alma 5:33)
Okay, you all are not going to change Samuel's mind and Samuel isn't changing anyone else's mind. So stop with the "I'm sorry for your soul, and my heart is heavy!" Any true Latter-day Saint's testimony won't be shaken so easily, nor will the testimony of an ANTI. So, one day, we'll all know right! Some of us just choose to find out sooner than others. Now everyone needs to quit arguing and typing such long disertations on this topic. President Monson is a prophet, and some don't see him that way. Arguing won't change anything. God knows all, ask him. The only way I know how to ask him is through prayer.
-Derek
I am a member of the LDS Church...
and I have done extensive study of all the scriptures and of the prophet Joseph Smith and he was definitely into Alchemy, herbalism, and probably a drug made of mushrooms which caused him to see visions...he also had a Jupiter talisman which had magical powers, not to mention too many other things ie freemasonry (which is evil the higher up you go)
There are satanic symbols on the Salt Lake and Nauvoo temple etc...
Satan uses 9 truths and 1 lie - and can appear as an angel of light.
The first vision account and the temple ceremony have changed several times...of course we who go currently don't know all of this...
I asked my temple president what some of the symbols in the endowment meant and he said, "It means whatever you want it to mean." The meaning can change each time you go.
I wasn't happy with this answer, he was very smug too - pompous.
I know in my heart of heart's that it all a lie -of course the basic gospel principles are true - but ALL the doctrines? I beg to differ.
Most mormons - like myself - want to love God and be like him...most mormons are sincere and have hearts of gold...but of course - so too do many other people outside of membership in it.
I think and feel that what entraps us within the church is that we believe in the family and everlasting love and to think or feel TRULY freely destroys our hope in those ideals. The notion that we need temple ordinances, passwords, handshakes etc to be allowed into heaven is ingrained, we take some of the doctrines and ordinances for granted - we don't study both sides of the coin.
We are told to abhor and resist any anti-mormon literature as though we would resist pornography.
Although I have read both sides of the story - I am not afraid of the truth. If this church is really true then it will be able to withstand any accusations...in my personal experience - in most cases - frankly it cannot.
There are many hidden facts that destroy Jospeh Smith and the rest.
However, although I know that the church is built up on a facade of goodness...it is satan's way of harvesting good people unto himself.
The book of Mormon was brought about by supernatural powers, but God's? NO WAY!!
Even the military members justify their career with the fact that Nephi killed Laban, and that Helaman's Army existed for freedom.
Whatever happened to thou shalt not kill?
What if the bible is a hoax too?
My personal opinion is that we will all live again after this life...but on the website about near-death experiences people from all denominations say that it doesn't matter to God what religion you belong to! I think this is unbiased information.
If I have a poor memory, or no hands in this life - does that mean that I can't get into heaven because I can't remember the words, etc...? Of course not!
If God is truly all powerful and all-knowing - which I believe He is - then why would I need those things other than His spoken approval of me - and His personal permission to allow me to enter heaven?
Who wants to be a priest/priestess? God/Goddess? (Sounds like the occult and priestcrafts to me!-along with all the other occult clues there are)
I don't. I don't aspire to being joint heirs with God one iota. Live with Him, yes, that would be nice. Live with my husband when I die? I believe we will find each other and associate with each other...
Even the word Melchizedek is a witchcraft term. Along with loads of others too many to mention here.
I have some questions Samuel -
1. why do many of the high ranking leaders in my church wear the black onyx ring associated with freemasonry? Gordon B Hinckley wore one.
2. Do you know if the apostles and past presidents are somehow related?
It all seems too closely intimate within the high-up circles to me.
Relying on feeling the Holy Spirit through prayer to confirm the truth of this church doesn't cut the mustard so-to-speak, We are taught by the church that confirmation comes in our hearts and our minds through study as well.
Well, I have made fervent prayers over sveral years to be assured and have peace.
I don't have it...the only time I feel moved is when someone bears testimony of love or of common sense principles - which are taught in most Christian churches.
Or even atheists who are good people and follow codes of ethics and morality.
Why are we ALL so afraid to see both sides of the coin?
I have had a hard path to walk...it is shocking when you read the facts...as for leaving, even though I know it's a lie it is impossible for me to leave.
I love my husband and I would be totally alone if I left. He is blinded like so many others...
I have been a member all my life - and if I ever left it would not be because of sin or being offended - I have no axes to grind.
I just think logically that's all
Sorry, just being honest.
Hey,
The Brighamite church is a fraud. I agree. You should check out this website. www.mormonbeliefs.com . Joseph Smith was a true prophet, but Brigham Young was a usurper. Learn about James Strang and the truth of where the church ended up. I haven't read your whole site, but just the fact that you realize the fraudulence of the Utah based Brighamites makes me think you might get something from the website listed above. Blessings
Hi Sam,
Since you have not posted a comment since October 9th of 2007, I'm worried that you are through with this thread and will not respond to me. But I'll cross my fingers.
I noticed that when you were conversing with Tom/Gadianton Slayer that you misread or got confused about the vibe of what he was saying. I hope that you won't do that with me as I have absolutely no malice in what I'm saying or asking.
I am curious to know if you are still married to the Woman that you were sealed to in the temple. You also mentioned your parents in the temple. What of them? You stated:
"Helping people everyday to deal with their pain or discover the complete truth is a great feeling. Also, the daily Emails I get thanking me, make it all worthwhile."
I was just wondering if those people that you deal with include your family members. I know you said that you did not leave the church because of sin, so can I ask what was the turning point for you? Did any one big event happen that made you come to this conclusion or was it a gradual process?
I guess after reading all this I just want to know more about you. That's All.
Lynn
I'm an active member of the church, age 18. I don't care what you've said in this thread really, but do you know the odds of finding a specific suicide case in Utah. Every week or 2 a child age 10-21 commits suicide in Utah. One of the highest in our country. Thought I would point that out, and say Utah is sick beyond all comprehension.
Samuel,
Sorry the LDS Church took so much from you. You know, maybe you could get a refund on the tithes and offerings you gave.
Kris
President Monson is the Prophet called for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints and the world at this time. This church is the only true church set up under proper authority and is set up exactly as Christ's church was in the New Testament. I know it is true. At this point you are ready to stop reading because you've had it with all of this and this blogger is just like all the others - right? What you know you know it truth, no one can take away from you. I know it just as surely as I can see my hand in front of my face. I know it just as I know I have seen and read your blog. I know it just as surely as I know and feel your sadness and anger. I know that your anger will destroy you eventually whether or not you believe in President Monson or not. At some point in the future Every knee will bow and tongue confess that God is who he is and President Monson is a Prophet on the earth today. One person cannot change what God has done. In the future everyone will come to know who God is and who he calls and what his purpsoes are. I hope you find a way to be happy and lose the anger. It will eat at you and can destroy you on so many levels, physically, emotionally, socially, temporally. There is one who want you to stay angry and one who wants you to find happiness. If you want to know for yourself, pray to know. It sounds hard but it's much easier than staying angry and remaining an enemy to someone who will continue to go on and be who he is regardless of what his detractors say. President Monson is a Prophet. The Savior is the Savior. These things are true. Simple as that. How do I know? Because I prayed and waited and the answer came. That's it. When you pray, answers come.
I appreciate your blog. It takes alot of guts to do what you do.
I left the church about a year ago after 32 years, BIC, temple wed, 4 kids, peter p-hood dh, etc, etc.
Not because of sin, or weakness, nope-I loved learning about my faith, but I learned to much.
For all those sappy naysayers out there who think this site is so horrible-do you know the story of the origins of the Book of Abraham?
That one was the final devistating straw for me. I had been duped! The mormon cult is such a miserable fraud and all the warm fuzzies in the world could not reverse that knowledge.
A year later I am happy to report that I am happy, healthy, and have not suffered for my apostacy.
As far as being angry or bitter I only get that way when I think of all the time, money, and dignity I wasted on such a silly religeon. I even let them tell me what underwear to wear!
I came to this realization from following this blog and others like it: Being a mormon is like having an ugly baby.
Using this analogy you can put most morgbots in to one of 2 catagories:
Catagory 1-they are so in love with their little ugly offspring that they can't see how ugly it is and get-o-so hurt when you point it out to them.
Category2- they now damn well how ugly their little bundle-O-joy is, so get really nasty and defensive if anyone dares to point it out to them or anyone else.
"You are just trying to find fault! Shame on you!"
"Sorry lady, but your baby is U-G-L-Y and is upseting the other children!"
LMAO!
For those mormons reading this (against the rules of your church-shame on you!) don't try to tell use about us until you have been where we are. Keep reading, learn about the history of the church. Google things like 'greek psalter', 'kinderhook plates', 'journal of discourses', 'anton letter', or 'book of abraham', and 'book of breathings'. I was a born in the covenant member and at age 32 found out alot I had never been taught about the church in ss. After months of intense study I came to the conclusion that there is no way the church could possibly be true.
As Thomas Edison so eloquently said,"Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
I find it hard to believe that you were a member for 30 years and now you are so against the church. Perhaps I missed your answer or perhaps it was not posted, but what faith do you now follow? I know of none that believe it is acceptable to speak badly of others or to use the tongue that you have chosen in most of you responses. Regardless of if you feel threatened or angry, it is still not appropriate to speak to anyone as you have. I want to address my first comment. If you were in fact a member for so long, it means you were baptized and at some point in your journey felt the holy ghost. Are we now to believe that is not true as well? Since you left the church, we are to believe all the things you have helped teach others is not true. If that is so, then you have lied to so many people and still have the right to pass judgement on a man because he used a death as an example. When I was in highschool, one of the kids in my school died in a car accident because he was drunk, His mother, who taught at the school, stood before all of us and told us that he was an example of what not to do and that she prayed we did not take the same path. In his statement, all Monson is saying is that people should do kind and not be so judgemental and hateful. You have chosen to do just the opposite merely by posting this. On the same thread you have called our prophet a liar and a good man...which is it? So for you I have one more thing for I wish nothing negative on you..."Evil (ignorance) is like a shadow--it has no real substance of its own, it is simply a lack of light. You cannot cause a shadow to disappear by trying to fight it, stamp on it, by railing against it, or any other form of emotional or physical resistance. In order to cause a shadow to disappear, you must shine light on it." May God be with you.
I didn't take the time to read through all of these posts because, honestly, a lot of them are just rude and ridiculous. However, one of the things that President Monson has been accused of is causing the family of the boy more pain by sharing his story. Well, Samuel the Utahnite, perhaps you are causing the additional pain by sharing their story here. Are you not doing the same thing that you are berating President Monson for? Perhaps he had permission from the family to share the story. Do you? As a parent, I would be sickened to have my sons story told on the internet and debated by someone that did not know anything about my son or the situation. Perhaps while debating and displaying President Monson's supposed atrocities you should also consider yours.
I just stumbled across this blog and man I am laughing my ass off.
First of all Samuel the Utahnite has every right to express his opinions and worship how where or what he may and that is protected under the constitution of the United States of America where it appears that he resides.
The same applies for everyone else that has commented here and resides in the same country.
And this is also laid out in the LDS articles of faith where I think it says something about honoring and sustaining the law.
For a church that at it's basic foundation talks about love love love and charity I am beside myself at the number of people that came on here (behind a keyboard) as I read on one of these statements (we all are!) and bore their testimony or blasted someone etc etc etc...
Look, if you are a what did you call it Sam, TBM, active of believing mormon then good for you. Follow blindly the council of your leader and live a happy,unhappy or inbetween happy or unhappy life.
Get off of the Blogs if you do not like what they say and stop and obey your leader. I am sure that he did not say, "Get on the Blog and defend me!"
A good baptist friend of mine told me once when she had a problem in her life that she just turned it over to god, she had done what she could do and she would leave it up to him.
That was MANY YEARS ago but stuck in my mind, that was some real faith there...
I also seem to remember something about being told by a mormon missionary... "Only certain people within the Lord's church have the capacity and keys to judge in his house..." I am paraphrasing but that is what I remember.
There is an awful lot of judging going on here.
If I was an all knowing God I would assume I would be able to know what every blog thought or action was anywhere... would you assume that as well...
According to what you have been taught do you think that you all would be discouraged from fueling more discontent against mormon's or their faith by what has been addressed here.
I may not agree with Samuel's Approach to all of this. But I choose to believe that he does indeed know Thomas S. Monson and that maybe they got cross ways somewhere in the past. I also admire his tenacity and his drive as I would anyone with these attributes but feel that they could be better served and profitable talents in other endeavours.
But I am truly beside myself now to think that so many TBM of this faith, knowing what I know and I do have many Mormon Contacts, would have so much hate in their hearts?
I came across this doing research about Thomas S. Monson for and assignment in my job. I read it and it made me laugh.
Something drew me back to it now several days later... I have been thinking about it.
For a church that says that its gospel is so true, I do not understand all of the arguing that these apparent members have engaged in?
If I believe something... I believe it. If it is proved otherwise, I move on and learn from it.
I am wrong sometimes in my life, it is a part of life and as far back as I can remember I have been taught that it is ok to be wrong. Only it is not ok to be wrong and then be really upset that you are.
Now I am not saying here that either party is wrong or right. Samuel believes that he is right. The TBM'S believe that they are right.
GREAT! Go and live your life in your own domain and enjoy what you do.
Now without taking sides... to the TBM's.
You sought this sight out. YOU DID... just like myself, I typed in Thomas S. Monson on a search engine and this was like the second or third listing.
What caught my eye was the picture of the man in what appears to be a communist leaders uniform and a title of "Paper boy's Suicide" It got my attention and I read.
You all CHOSE to read this here... what is that you all call it in your church, it is a fancy word for choice, oh AGENCY...
You exercised your AGENCY and CHOSE to read here Samuel's thoughts.
You then exercised your agency created a post to his thoughts and on and on.
The missionaries from your church went on and on in their sales pitch of the love of the membership and so on and so forth and how as a church you all were instructed to stay away from controversy such as this...
Hmmm... My interest in your church really plummeted. Christians... I have many friends from many faiths... I have many mormon friends... but I have not found that many of my friends of other faiths pay attention to things of this nature and get riled up so much on these matters. It seems that you are struggling with your beliefs?
Your religion plays a great deal on your persecution in the east before the exodus to the Salt Lake Valley.
I discovered in my research... and it was some pretty heavy research... It was not religious persecution in the beginning at all. The members of your church at the time at the direction of your leader, Joseph Smith moved into an area and created a large imbalance in political influence in that region.
The members of your church were told who and how to vote on issues that altered the lifestyle, income and freedoms (so they felt) of the locals that had lived their for long periods of time.
When a local businessman started to print about this in his newspaper, church members at the direction of the leader of your church destroyed his printing press and his place of business.
Word of this spread and a general uprising occurred.
The rest is history from there. One of your own church leaders stated (sorry, I do not remember his name as I am writing) that it was the conceit of saints alone that lead to the persecution in the beginning. Once it had started there was no turning back.
This is a sad history for the United States. Not just for you. That we could not get along with each other and respect everyone's rights as protected under law.
Soon the whole nation was at war against each other, even relatives against relatives.
And the exodus of your church began.
Now it is spread throughout the world.
If you truly believe that your have the one and true religion and your faith is as strong as you say it is here... May I suggest to you that you not be so conceited as to think that you alone hold the answers to life so much that you cause more hate and discontent in the world around you...
I would fight to protect anyone's right at anytime unless they are showing there ass and deserve it. Don't add fuel to a fire it will eventually burn itself out.
Go start your own blog if you feel so strongly about what you believe.
But you should respect the opinions of others. Unless you have concrete proof to the contrary.
And that goes for you too Samuel, but I really enjoyed the laugh... thanks...
I bet you were a horrible missionary. You are one of those people who was never accepted and have just a need of worth. You might have done things that members of the church have done, but you are truley lost dude. Some people search their whole life to find themselves. Maybe some day you will. I think the way you are handeling your ignorance is a little pitiful but you will get your answers some day. We all will!
I read your information and what i say is that in 30 years of your membership you're not obtain the testimony. Maybe you join the church because of your parents and you are not research faithfully in the church. our Pioneer members and our prophet of old like Joseph Smith Jr. Sacrifice his life in order to have this blessing. Temple is have a secret mystery that you cannot understand in your own understanding thats why you must pray if the book of mormon is true. I cannot imagine what the future you can give to your son and daughter and your future grandson and daughter. They cannot have the gospel. I know in the last days they will asked you why you fall away in the church.
MYU8,
I know for a fact that his children will be very greatful for not being raised in a fraud of a religion. I wish I had not been raised in it.
I spent 33 yrs in that church, and I believed it 'with every fiber of my being', until I began looking at it's history and how those that created the church LIED over and over again. I can PROVE, with the church's own records and rescourses that the LDS church is a lie. I can PROVE it. I can prove that JS fabricated the 1st vision story, and I can PROVE that he never translated anything, but mereley made stuff up.
You really need to set aside your warm fuzzy feelings for a moment and really take a look at the foundations of the church. Start with the Book of Abraham. That was a real eye opener for me.
-Lily
Lily,
I have a very hard time to believe that you have PROVEN that the First Vision and translations of the BOM are all lies. One reason is because of the education Joseph Smith, Jr. had. I also think if you want to find fault with anything then your going to find it, whether it even be part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have your own agency and your own opinion, but let those who believe have the opportunity to find the truth through their own personal experiences.
Shane,
Have you read all nine starkly contrasting recorded versions of the first vision?
There is proof number one.
Proving the BOM a fraud is just as easy, but requires more space, so I will simply put this: www.mormonthink.com
Then choose the link for BOM problems.
The evidence is there and there are mountains of it.
Here's a question for you: why have no artifacts from the great BOM wars been found anywhere on, near, or around the hill cumorah? Perhaps because it was a made up story?
Perhaps you should use your agency and dig a little deeper into your pet religeon.
Happy Hunting!
-Lily
Samuel the utahnite, you are an angry person and choose to vent out by using the church as a scape goat. Thomas S. Monson is just a man. He is not God, but I do know that he is in the position to receive revelation from him, directly. What is sad about this blog is that you are putting so much energy into something so silly with little education on the fact, when you could be doing good in others lives. Take all of this energy and apply to something worth while.
Samuel the Utahnite - do you realise that you can make the word 'hate' twice from those letters? Sadly, this seems rather apt, because it is abundantly clear that you have plenty of that soul-destroying stuff within you regarding Thomas S Monson (and, presumably, the Mormon Church?). Why not be rid of this cancerous growth and just leave people to their own beliefs (as long as they do not impinge upon the rights of others) - after all, isn't that what Mormons do (11th article of faith)? Also, could Lily please enlighten us all and tell us which, of all the 'churches', is the 'correct' one? Proof will be required, of course!
He is a man of God. He is the sweetest, most hard working, kindest man. He speaks from God. I know that his words are true and deep inside, I think you know them too.
Perhaps this has already been covered in previous comments, but please forgive me if I do not read all of them for the past 4 years.
It seems to me that one's view of President Monson is colored by one's definition of a prophet. It appears your definition can be summed up as "A prophet is someone to whom God reveals all things about all people at all times." Under this definition your deconstruction of President Monson would be justified. However, your definition is not God's definition. Latter-Day Saints do not consider the prophet to be infallible, nor do they believe that he is Batman or Superman, vigilantly keeping the city free of all bad things. By your definition he could prevent every suicide in Salt Lake City, not just one. And if he could do that then why not prevent every suicide in Utah, and then why not in the whole USA, and then why not in the whole world? Since this is, of course, absurd, then it follows that the definition that produced this result is absurd. Therefore your deconstruction is not justified.
I unfortunately haven't had a chance to respond to this thread for quite sometime, but it remains the most popular post on my entire blog & easily found when simply Googling "Thomas S. Monson"..so I thought I'd post this here. I'll also be posting many more comments here in the very near future & I look forward to your responses. I'll also try to go back when I can & answer many of the comments that I've missed, as often & as soon as I can.
For the meantime, enjoy this crock of shit, about how the poor, humble MORmON PRophet had to spend $400,000 to remodel his..er...I mean Jesus' condo. I wish I could have had a few thousand of those dollars to help me live in better places on my mission, with hot showers, instead of the SHIT DUMPS I lived in, with no hot showers for as long as 6 months at a time!(I took cold showers on my mission for longer than hot showers, even in the winter, with no inside heating of ANY KIND..it was BULLSHIT!!)
Detailed info on Pres. Monson's condo renovations
PROJECT: Gateway Condo
REPORT: Budget (Furnishings, Fixtures & Equipment)
PREPARED BY: Lawrence Wyss, Michael Jenson
SUBMITTED: 30-Dec-08
CATEGORY BUDGET
Loose Furnishings $130,541
seating
casegoods
tables
lamps
Cabinetry/Countertops (includes installation of cabinetry only) $70,776
2 kitchens
5 baths
Appliances $30,505
2 kitchens
laundry
televisions
Lighting $21,265
chandeliers
sconces
Flooring (includes installation) $63,114
carpets
stone
Wall Treatments $18,452
decorative painting
wall covering (does not include installation)
Window Treatments (includes installation) $30,185
drapery
shutters
Venetian blinds
Miscellaneous (includes installation) $34,999
accessories
mirrors
art
fireplace surrounds/hearths
closet interiors
Total $399,837.00
So there it is MORmONS..BRING IT ON & start bowing your head & defending your CULT LEADER ThomASS Monson like the pathetic SHEEP you all are..I can't wait for you to all embarrass & expose yourselves!!
Well christ on crutches! Which conference was it where these 'inspired' leaders told the flock not to go to the church when they fall on hard times? ("Just pay that 10% on your unemployment and/or SSDI along with a GENEROUS fast offering instead of saving or paying your bills. We will be so-er- we mean YOU will be sooo blessed for it!")
Oh ye defenders of the faith, have you not ever wondered why the LDS church doesn't publish their financial records for the world to see? Maybe just a few would lose their faith and cut of the tithing faucet if it were revealed that the church is using members hard earned $ to build -what?- a 'great and spacious building'! Oh the irony! Your prophet can't prophesy and the white (99.9% anyway) and delight-some male patriarchy is neck deep in 'secret combinations'!
Our friend Sam IS serving his fellow human beings by warning them about this not-so-prophetic profit and the institutionally abusive fraud of a 'church' that he heads.
I can only say one thing about this blog and the person who started it.
This is a perfect example of what the adversary will do to someone who is following Christ and being Christ like. I hope you find peace my brother.
There is good reason to doubt the man made order of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints - brigham young usurped rule after Joseph smith Jr. Joseph was far from perfect and made mistakes... Many... And some believe that was a reason he was taken through death of the body but probably much like David in the way he had sinned gravely, but through true repentance was still accepted before God. There was someone. Who was appointed by Joseph smith (yet there are claims against it's authenticity which is a matter each person must research and decide upon themselves) and claims he was ordain at the hands of angels- don't give up asking for wisdom and truth above all.
The God of Abraham is true. Jesus lives, but mankind has corrupted so much. Over time it becomes a murky mess.
Always question... When you stop asking for answers you will stop receiving
"This is a perfect example of what the adversary will do to someone who is following Christ and being Christ like. I hope you find peace my brother."
Who is following christ and being christ-like?
The devil (aka adversary) will hold christians to account for their greedy financial practices?
I can't believe I just wasted 5 minutes reading that..... So you've decided to dedicate your life to proving the mormonism is false. Dude relax, take a breath, think for a while and stop being so emotional about everything, turn off your heart and use your brain if you have one. You're not going to win this battle. Why are you wasting so much of your time, I feel like an idiot for spending a couple minutes reading such hate and vitriol, I can't imagine wasting all that energy writing and editing it. I don't know what you were x-communicated for or why you decided the principles of the gospel were too hard for you live by, but it's no ones problem but yours my friend. Sorry to be the one to tell you this the church isn't going anywhere, it's here to stay and all you folks who are wasting your lives fighting against it need to take a step back and think it through. Why not just take some time off and try to find some enjoyment in life, I feel sorry for you, really I can't imagine living a life of hate, bitterness, envy, and emptyness.
Did you just get excommunicated and now your really pissed off at the whole Mormon church trying to get back at them by lying and making up ridiculous stories. And if not how dare you insult someone's religion, how dare you question their beliefs. This whole suicide story, if it is real, doesn't mean that he isn't a prophet. Thomas S. Monson only sees what God wants him to see, maybe it wasn't supposed to be that he had a miraculous vision and saved that little boy, you don't know how God sees things.He is a wonderful man, and you could do to take a leaf out of his book.
Wow dude, You completely missed the boat on what it means to have faith, the role of a prophet, responsibility, imperfection, and the redemption that comes from Jesus Christ. Most likely it eats you up at night or else you wouldn't be so determined to destroy Christianity. I hope some day you work out your issues and quit being angry.
I think it takes all kinds to promote the truth, even if this blogger is striking out with anger, often I will trust an angry man before a calculated and calm one. I wouldn't expect him to cause the Mormon Church to go anywhere, all he can do is spread information letting people figure out the truth and hope some are saved from the indoctrination. Getting to people before they are brainwashed is the most effective way to defeat regions on a personal basis. After a cult gets to the size and power of the Mormon Church, it's almost imposable to push it back down the hole it sprang out of.
I'm not Mormon, but I've seen the rotten core that is the Church structure. I have no hate for Mormon's, but the Church makes me gag from the stench, but hate is wasted on a structure that is built on obsolete human instinct and ignorance. If it had been build out of evil, I could hate it, but it owes its existence to traits left over from when we groveled naked in search of food hundreds of thousands of years ago. Fear of death, hording food for the winters give you the two most powerful forces in creating a religion, eliminating death with an afterlife and greed/power. Smith not only gave you an afterlife, but added full deification. I don't think Smith was all that smart, but he was clever. Only he could tell us how many stories he made up in his head that gave him power, wealth and all the women he wanted, before he decided on this one.
We can never make Mormonism or any of the top religions go away, it's not because any are more true than the others, that is silly, it's just there are always people who still react more to their Hindbrain then their Neocortex, instinct or reason. What we can do is fight back with information, call these people on their BS.
Proselytizing is very profitable for the Mormon Church, I think more so then other religions, the greed is built right into the faith, give 10% or we won't let you into the Temple and that means no divinization for you. With all that money at risk, I have no doubt the Church spends millions pushing back on any decent, it is the nature of cults to do so. After debating some Mormons you start to see the same comments and excuses, like they are reading from a script, so I hope this blogger never gives up the fight, it's not the people passing out the kool-aid he needs to convince, it's the everyone else.
As much as I'm against the moron, ahem Mormon, church, I do believe a lot of what you've said here Samuel, and don't believe other parts. But I also used to be a devout moron, and believed it all, and then I opened my eyes when I moved out of my parents house and saw everything from the outside. CRAZY!!! But yes, I can see what you're saying in this story, and I know how crazy everything in the LDS church really is. Thank you for this great insight Mr. Utahnite!
Nice article. There are way too many holes in the thinking and logic of mormons. What a sickening way to make a point about how "righeous" he is. Just look at the guy. Anyone who has an once of human empathy and discernement, can take one look at the guy and see that he's evil too the core. I had an asian friend visiting who knew nothing about mormons, saw monsons picture near temple square, and asked me shuddering, who that evil looking man was.
Hi.
I'm a Mormon. What you are saying is COMPLETELY your opinion. But I need to ask you, have you ever been to the Mormon churches? Have you ever sat there on at least 5 of the Sundays and sat and earnestly listened to the talks? Have you ever fully read, searched, pondered, and prayed about the Book of Mormon? Have you ever Talked to President Thomas S. Monson personally? And lastly...Are you God? I'm pretty sure that you are NOT God. So if you are not, then what gives you the right to judge us? What gives you so much hated toward us? What makes you DEVOTE your life to stalking and hating us? And why don't you stop saying these nasty things if you don't know us? I am only 12 years old. I am polynesian, and I think that every word you say comes from anger and hate, but why can't you ever come to truly know us? We aren't bad people, but we aren't perfect either. We don't go around hating on Catholics, or any other religion. We respect their beliefs because it is their choice. And this is ours. You need to gain some respect not for us, but for yourself because right now you are losing all of it. We believe that this is the true church and our gospel is right, and that is why we want everyone on this planet to know of it, and listen to it so that they can be able to have the true knowledge. We have this amazing fruit, and we want everyone possible to taste it, even you. And I think you have no respect for anyone or for yourself and you need help to gain that. You need some assistance and guidance to allow you to move on with your life. I am so sorry for whatever happened to you, and I will pray that you can come to lose all of your useless hatred.
Lizzy Henderson. You didn't freely chose your faith, if you did, you would have been introduced to all religions equally, including those of nonbelievers. You were indoctrinated, brainwashed, to be Mormon. Have you sat through 5 Sundays at a Mosque, Synagogue or Unitarian service? Do you really know Mormonism, did you know Joseph Smith wanted sex with young girls, so he married them nearly as young as you? As far as having "this amazing fruit, and we want everyone possible to taste it" that is exactly what drug addicts say. Mormonism is a hoax, build around perversion, power and greed. Get informed and free yourself from it. At 12 you still have a mind that can be feed.
Still you have not proven anything. Not a shred of real evidence on speaking with the neibors which your whole argument is based on. And you do dodge this with silly insults to anyone who tries to disprove you. You are so pitiful, and i hope you can get help, but at this point we all just need to turn the other cheek, no one is being logical and this gets us nowhere! Our church is the fastest growing in the world, and theirs a reason for this. We work hard, try our best and love everyone we can, even You! Our missionaries stay out in the field for two whole years, most churches only keep them for a few months at most.we pay a tenth of all we earn, each of us is devoted, and i am proud that i have come to know the Lds church, because it is the true church. We face up to people like you every day and we will try to correct you, but not out of hatred, but of love. and in the next life i can't wait to see you in your perfected state if you choose eternal life after death.
i love my church becuase i have in fact sat with every possible religion you could think of before i joined the church, and when i finally did come across it, it made me feel so happy, not because of what you think that we all get a free pass, which we don't. It's becuase it is true and you can tell this by how fast we're growing , we are the fastest in the world. Now i can tell you havn't really looked into this religion by all the stereotypes you just spewed. You got that stuff from blogs like this, and not so friendly friends. You are the ones who are being illogical, you don't take one look at somone and say their evil. Just like the churches, you have to know them all and completly before you can know which one is true. I hope to see you guys in the next life in your perfected state if you choose eternal life after death.
Regarding President Monson...From the time he was a Young Adult, President Monson has been in Church service...67 years (although some have even chosen to criticize his childhood actions). In totaling all the ill will and negative things said about him...assuming all are true, accurate, totally objective and honestly reflective of his true persona rather than isolated incidents...These criticisms sure don't amount to much. I am just an average person and I am sure I am guilty of at least that many offenses every month. Thank heavens we do not all live in glass houses. GP
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