Sunday, July 08, 2007

The Rational Response Squad-Kelly And Sapient(Atheists)--Debating Die-Hard Christians Kirk Cameron And Ray Comfort In Nightline Face-Off.

MP3 File

For anyone that is interested in the topic of God and if he/she/it exists or if you can prove God's existence, I highly suggest you invest the hour and a half and watch or listen to this great debate, which was held on ABC's Nightline. The Rational Respondersdid a GREAT job taking on Kurt and Ray, from "The Way Of The Master" ministries. It's not hard to defeat the religious fanatics, when you have truth, logic, reason and common sense on your side.

The Rational Responders admit that they brought their B game, but still easily defeated Ray and Kurt and I would have to agree. He admits that they are learning and growing as they go along. Kurt and Ray are used to being on TV, with their TV show and of course Kirk Cameron grew up on TV's "Growing Pains." Kelly And Sapient, who are not used to being on TV, for millions to watch, seemed very composed and did a hell of a job considering that fact.

Everyone has to make their own decision on this topic of God, but to me, it's clear who is using logic and who is using fairy tales and fear, to threaten people with Eternal damnation, and it ain't the Atheists.

Amazing, isn't it, that it's the Atheists who seem very reasonable and show more love, inclusion, understanding and compassion for everyone, while the so called "Christians", are the hate-filled condemning people, inducing fear and threatening everyone with hellfire and Satan/Demon possession, if we don't all follow them.

I've been fighting these type of fanatical Christians for over a year now and I condemn them often, openly and strongly for their God induced hate, threats, and condemnation of innocents. These die-hard, fanatical Christians, really are pathetic!! One thing for sure, is that logic, reasoning and common sense, are something that CANNOT be a part of any organized religion and in fact, they are the complete opposite of the fairy tales and horror stories they tell.

It's amazing that Christians always state Atheists have no values or morals and no reasons to ever do anything good; when the Christians are the ones that want innocent people to burn in literal flames, for ALL eternity, if we don't follow them. Even most of Mormonism's doctrines and teachings, aren't this vile, offensive and condemning.

I have also decided to release this debate as a podcast, on my Mormon Truth Interviews Podcast, which is available for free on iTunes, so that those of you who cannot take the time to watch it, will at least be able to listen to it on your audio player, while on the way to work, or working out, etc.

Enjoy everyone!!

I hope that everyone that watched or listened to this debate, has had their mind expanded and has learned something and enjoyed this debate and I look forward to your comments, as always.

Samuel the Utahnite

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At Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:50:00 AM, Blogger Al Jordan said...

Thanks for finding and posting these Samuel. I enjoyed watching them.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an athiest now?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:49:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

You're welcome al Jordan and thanks for your great blog. I finally added a link to your blog in my sidebar and thanks for adding me on your blog as well. Sorry it took so long, as I hadn't done much with my template for quite a while, due to lack of time.

I haven't heard back yet from Mike or Hyrum, so I don't know what's going on with those guys, but I really want to get their podcasts posted again on iTunes, for everyone to hear. We'll see what happens. I can always remove them, if they don't want them up down the road.

Hey, thanks for that great list of books too, as I still have a ton of reading, studying and research ahead of me, as I've always thirsted for knowledge, which Mormonism never quenched, since we were in such a tiny, little box.

Now, as far as whether I consider myself to be an Atheist now...I would say I believe exactly like Sapient explained in the video; he doesn't rule out that there is some type of God or being out there, that created us or the world, but we don't know who or what it/he/she is. Regular Atheists are very reasonable, logical and realistic in their beliefs and don't state "I know there is no God", like the fanatical religious zealots state they "know there is a god." I would classify myself as an Agnostic Atheist, if that makes sense.

In other words, we are completely open to all possibilities, but will await the proof, before declaring that WE KNOW something, like whether there's a God or not.

One thing I know for pretty damn sure, is that the God as defined in the Bible, the mass murderer and promoter of genocide and the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children, and many other horrors, through Prophets like Moses; can't possibly be that God or like they said, they'd rather be in hell for all eternity. Amen to that!!

I loved the part where Kelly stated that we are ALL Atheists regarding all the other Gods, if you are a Christian or believe in some other God, which automatically excludes all of the other Gods.

Mormons always explain this away, by claiming that everyone else in the world, that believes and worships a different God, actually believes in the Mormon God, but they just don't know it...yet...LOL...remember hearing that one or even teaching it?

I also loved how Sapient pointed out that we are ALL born Atheists and have to be taught to be Theists...isn't that the truth?

This goes back to what I always say, especially to the Evangelicals and radical Mormon apologists...that our parents could have raised us to be die-hard Nazis, Skin-heads, terrorists, suicide bombers, etc, etc, but does that make it right? Just because we were raised one way, makes it the "one and only way" and we should never even dare ask if it was the right way or not?

That's where the brainwashing and deep indoctrination from birth or conversion kicks in and they can't see past their faces.

I just felt that this was a great and fair debate for everyone to be able to watch and maybe have some better insights into what they believe. In this world of brainwashed fanatics we are living in, especially the Mormons; anything that can provoke deeper thoughts or maybe break through the Mormon burning bosom blinder, is a great thing.

Anyway, I'm glad you liked it and I hope this helps you understand better where I'm coming from. I plan on going much deeper into this on "My Journey To the Truth" podcasts, that will go from the beginning until now and explain exactly what I believe and why.

Also, I loved your ex-Mormon testimony...that was great and very fitting!! And that CD that they brought your kids says it all and is truly unbelievable. But yeah, there's no brainwashing or indoctrination going on, that's just a myth started by us evil, vile, disease germ anti/ex-Mormons.

For those that haven't gone and checked out Al Jordan's blog yet, I highly suggest you do so.

Take care Al Jordan, I love your insights and don't be a stranger,


At Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:53:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

so this is your famous blog spot?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:55:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...


At Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:58:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Yep, this is it and the church office building and Farms, are on it quite a bit..but I know, I know, nobody gives a shit about anything I do or say, nobody ever reads my blog, nobody takes me seriously, I don't have Mormon apologists reading it everyday, the blog counter is fake and nobody has ever listened to my podcast and 30,000 downloads a month is also bullshit, as is my bandwidth counter, right?

Just wanted to get that out there for everyone to know that you are saying about me and my worthless efforts, that nobody even knows about.

But welcome to Mormon go ahead and respond to the racism questions I had to ask you 5 times before you would even admit that they had been taught.

You said something like yes they taught them, but not in the way I describe or understand it...anyway, enlighten me and everyone else, we want to know how they are acceptable and make perfect sense in the big scheme of things.


At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:03:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

First off, lets get some ground rules in place, or common ground you could say, so that we have a common belief in something so that at least we can have an intelligent debate

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:09:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Because obviously the things that are taught are taught from doctrine from the Bible and also the BOM, so if you dont even have a fundamental belief in god or the bible, its gonna very hard to have any sort of educated conversation, because all we will be doing is arguing opinion, which is just peoples opinion not truth, so we need to have something in place that we both believe as truth that we can use to judge both of our remarks, fair enough, so what part of christianity do you believe in? If any, or are you atheist? Do you believe in God, or what?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:11:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

I first want to say that you have absolutely no clue how many people I've helped over the last 2 years, including single men and women, older couples, older singles, families, younger folks, etc and I really don't think you care, because you think all of us ex-Mormons are just idiots and losers and spewing all lies, that we got off of some anti site.

I've helped countless people and I guess I could go through all my emails and have people start Emailing you, telling you how much I've helped them and then maybe you'd believe me, maybe not.

Also, if I ask you a questions, ANSWER IT and don't make me ask you 5 times, because that really, really pisses me off.

I have no problem having intelligent debate, as I do it all the time, but you didn't seem capable of such a level.

Go back to my podcast with the apologist Jared(downloaded around 7,000 times, each episode and still counting), as we got along just fine, because he didn't start accusing me of lying and making things up right out of the box and he actually owned up to much of what troubles me, which you haven't shown the ability to do so let's hope you can show something new.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:14:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

i will answer every question you ask, like I said first we need common ground, what are we both agreeing on as truth? If i quote the bible you will discount it? Correct, so how do you want me to explain certain doctrines of the church, If i cant use the actual sources that were used to create that doctrine, if you dont want to have a common ground then we can argue opinion, thats fine with me also.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:17:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Actually, it's very easy for me to debate with the Bible, BOM, D&C, etc, and I can debate the most fanatical Mormon or the most fanatical Evangelical and all I do is hold you to your teachings and it really doesn't matter what I believe or don't, because it is you that has the burden of proof, to show me and everyone, why your church is the "one and only true church on earth."

I just hold you accountable for what your scriptures teach, along with your Prophets and Apostles, all the way back to 1820, when it all began.

I use logic, reason and common sense and don't even need any scriptures to poke massive holes through organized religion as a whole.

It is you, whose entire religion is based on such books, needs them in order to prove your case, of why your church is the "only true one" and why all the others are abominations, whores of all the earth, etc.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:24:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

As for blacks and the priesthood, its a very simple answer, it deals with the pre-existence when thing were set aside to happen at certain times, hence the woman who asked Jesus to heal her kid, he said no, she was not of the house of israel, was he being racist? NO Read Duet 32:8... Things were to happen at certain times, so when god wanted thing to happen, they happen, its simple

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:28:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

You can quote the Bible for you, but justifying Mormonism, based on the "as far as translated correctly Bible", doesn't work too well for me. I mean are you going to use the standard version or the "enlightened" Joseph Smith version of the Bible, which changes things quite drastically in some cases.

Look, I believe all organized religion is BS and so there's nothing in the Bible that will move me or convince me of anything, as I've spend thousands of hours researching all of this at a very deep level, for the last 2 years.

You can quote it all you want, but then you have to answer the questions I ask you about the Bible, that make no sense and to me, prove it to be absolutely false and nothing but a book written by a bunch of men, probably delusional and power hungry. In most cases, no one even knows who wrote anything that is contained in the Bible and that's a fact and very troublesome.

Mormons take things VERY literally in the Bible and that really puts you guys into a deep corner that's hard to escape from. Even many Christian religions have accepted some things as allegorical or symbolic in nature now, but Mormons keep going forward, stating it happened literally and is a fact.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:30:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

So, if we aren't punished for Adam's transgressions, according to Mormon doctrine, why were blacks, in Mormonism, punished for Cain's transgression, in Mormon doctrine?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:39:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

See the difference between me and you is i believe in being able to communicate with god, obviously the bible has been translated numerous times and some things would be lost, I still dont know if you even believe in Christ? Do you?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:40:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Also, why does your Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, sometimes know why blacks were banned from the Priesthood and why it happened and then other times says, over and over, "I don't know." How can a Prophet of God not know? You know he knows, because other times, he explains it "they interpreted that doctrine that way."

The most troubling exchange was this one, on 60 minutes with Mike Wallace and this video is posted on Youtube for you to watch, if you doubt it:

MW: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham Young said, "Cain slew his brother, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."

GBH: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those little flecks of history.

MW: Skeptics will suggest, "Well, look, if we're going to expand, we can't keep the blacks out."

GBH: Pure speculation. [Laughs.]

It seems that he changes his opinions like the wind, which is definitely leading astray in my book, which he is forbidden to do, because God will remove him if he tries....but he still does it and nothing happens to him...he's 97 now.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:47:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

You expect him to be able to know everything at all times about every situation, you called him about about the tsunami. People have agency, thats why bad things happen to good people, should god stop everything bad from ever happening, we would be like little puppets at his beck and call, what would be the purpose of our existence? Ya blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood for some time, was it changed? Yes, why did God not allow them to have until that time? Who knows, pray and ask him Sam.
As for Adams trangression, all were affected by his decision, everyone.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:49:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Here are the quotes that are a little off topic but staying with Hinckley to show how he says it's either true or a fraud and that there's no middle ground and no room for error.

This first one is from the Gordon B. Hinckley speech, “The Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, 78:

We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.

When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, “Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.”

That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.

Now from Gordon B. Hinckley's speech, “Loyalty,” Ensign, May 2003, 58

Now may I say a word concerning loyalty to the Church.

We see much indifference. There are those who say, "The Church won't dictate to me how to think about this, that, or the other, or how to live my life."

No, I reply, the Church will not dictate to any man how he should think or what he should do. The Church will point out the way and invite every member to live the gospel and enjoy the blessings that come of such living. The Church will not dictate to any man, but it will counsel, it will persuade, it will urge, and it will expect loyalty from those who profess membership therein.

When I was a university student, I said to my father on one occasion that I felt the General Authorities had overstepped their prerogatives when they advocated a certain thing. He was a very wise and good man. He said, "The President of the Church has instructed us, and I sustain him as prophet, seer, and Revelator and intend to follow his counsel."

Then he said:

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is NOTHING.

So my point is, it's either ALL true or a fraud, just like Hinckley says, with NO MIDDLE GROUND, which leaves you very little wiggle room, if any.

Now, I'll respond to your comment about Christ.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:55:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

And lets please stick to the topic, I am not gonna dance around answering a million differents questions

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:59:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

I believe that Jesus was a man that probably lived, but even that is up for some serious debate if you really look at the actual history and all of the very famous people, that wrote thousands of pages, that are documented, and they never mentioned Jesus one time. This is fact.

So, why wouldn't they even mention him at all, especially when he supposedly went crazy in the temple, over turned the tables, etc, is pretty sketchy to me and there were tons of Jesus like guys going around, doing all of the same things he was doing. Ever heard of any of this?

And no, I don't believe any God has anything to do with any of us or anything happening on this world and that he doesn't talk to us. I believe hearing voices in our head, thinking they are some invisible God we've never ever seen, that helps protect us from the other invisible Satan, who's out to get us every second of every day, is quite delusional and unhealthy and I know, because I once strongly believed it too, with all of my heart.

Hey, I mentioned it was off topic, as a courtesy and explained why, so chill your damn jets and deal with it. You have no middle ground to rest on, according to your current Prophet Hinckley and I was just pointing that out. You don't have to respond, but I can post whatever the hell I want, to make whatever point I just ignore it if you want and I want an answer, I'll just ask you again.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:08:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

I dont need a middle ground, and I will follow your same lead, so deal with it also, So let me get this straight, just so I understand your point of view, we are arguing the influence of GOD on certain men that gave sermons about what they were influenced on, all the while you in no way shape or form believe in god or christ at ALL. So that is like me arguing with you about whats on the moon, when I dont beleive we ever even landed on the moon! Your putting the cart before the horse. It seems your issue should be with christianity as a whole, and any religion that deals with god. In Hinduism, they place COWS in value over their woman, Islamic woman are not allowed to be in public without covering thier faces.
So should our debate be on whether God exists? Or wether a GBH communicates with a GOD that you dont think exists.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:11:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

And YES the statement you posted by GBH about no middle ground is true, and I believe that wholeheartedly, and you are gonna prove me wrong how? By pointing out facts about Christ and religion that you dont believe in? By quoting quotes from prophets that made those quotes from religious documents that you dont feel are from GOD? Because you dont feel there is a GOD at all? Do you see why I am confused with your logic?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:16:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...


You will be doing alot of people a great favour putting Mike and Hyrum's Podcasts back online ..

I have them too and they are great .... they helped me alot not to get sucked into Mormonism .... The church can be very persuasive and draw unsuspecting people in with their 'Fake' Love , although well meaning on their part , its only objective is to bring folk in , they are obsessed with getting converts . I think they all have doubts themselves , so when they get a convert they probably think to themsleves it could be true afterall .

I would have been a good catch for them , the first new convert who's either not a desperate African Asylum Seeker or a person who's life is a mess and needs mormonism.. They can see that I can be as good as them but it rattles them that I won't get baptised ! lol

Well I don't need the church and neither do my friends and family .

Well nearly two years of investigating has cleared my mind that its not a restored church and the History of the Church leaders and their teachings is a disgrace and we are supposed to believe that its all lead by Jesus himself ? something my conscience couldn't accept !

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:20:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Elder Joseph, Let me ask you a question, if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic? NO, so if you want to learn how to become closer to GOD, do you go through someone who has no belief in God or Christ? Explain please

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:21:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

The only true thing I've heard Gordon Hinckley say is " I don't know "," I don't know " !!

He just lies about polygamy in his Interviews . He didn't know if the church teaches that God was once a man !

Its a big joke ......... and we're supposed to believe this man talks with God ?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:23:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

You read the little posts this guy makes and you think its the word of GOD. Its crazzy, you know he does not even BELIEVE IN GOD!!!! Does that not sink into your head? Yet you come to him for advice about god and religion? Does that not sound wierd to you?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:32:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Your comments are in parenthesis, with my comments below each one.

"You expect him to be able to know everything at all times about every situation, you called him about about the tsunami."

Well what good is the man, as the only man on earth that can speak for God, if he can't save the lives of 250,000 people? Mormon doctrine teaches that Moses parted the red sea as a literal can Hinckley stop a Tsunami? Apparently not...and he's no Moses, right? Then again, your God is just selective on who he saves, with no real rhyme or reason.

"People have agency, thats why bad things happen to good people, should god stop everything bad from ever happening, we would be like little puppets at his beck and call, what would be the purpose of our existence?"

So let me get this straight...God can't help people or save lives, because we'd just be like puppets and that would take away the free agency of mass murderers, criminals, terrorists, dictators, etc? So, in reality, this all powerful, all knowing, everywhere God, is 100% powerless and that's embarrassing for him and those that believe in him.

So, you think that you can pray to him and get answers and he talks to you, but he can't save a little baby that is being brutally raped and murdered? Wouldn't answering your prayers or guiding you, take away your free agency? Why would a God that can't ever save any lives, through his modern-day Moses, bother to care about you or answer your prayers? That doesn't even make a shred of sense, except that you were probably taught that from birth.

Does God just bless Mormons, since they are his "chosen people" and have the only truth on the whole planet and they are the only ones that can have "the gift of the holy ghost" and everyone else can only have the holy ghost temporarily?

How about when God literally flooded the earth and killed every living person and every animal, except for the 8 people and the animals? That must have been the greatest stripping of free agency in the history of the world. So, it's okay for your God to mass murder the world, killing innocent men, women, children and babies, but he isn't allowed to save them? WTF?!!

Look, here's the deal...your God does absolutely nothing, as you pretty much admit with your free agency argument and why Hinckley can't help anyone or warn the world, the night before a massive Tsunami.

God is supposed to know the beginning from the end, but who cares, because this supposed all powerful God, is powerless to do anything, despite knowing the beginning from the end, because of his own law of free agency.

So, in reality, man has more power on earth, than the God, to prevent catastrophes, help people, save lives, etc. If you knew exactly when one of your children was going to die and how they where going to die and where it was going to happen, every detail, you would do EVERYTHING within your power, I hope, to save your child, wouldn't you?

However, God knows everything that will ever happen, knows when, how, why and where the child will be kidnapped, raped, murdered, hit by a car, etc and yet just watches as they die and does NOTHING. So, how is it that you, as a mere man, with no special powers, can save a child and yet your God isn't able to or better said, isn't allowed to, due to his own so called free agency rules? Just asking....can you explain it to me?

Ya blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood for some time, was it changed? Yes, why did God not allow them to have until that time? Who knows, pray and ask him Sam.

So, God won't save the little baby that is probably being raped and murdered as we speak, but he'll answer my prayer about why Mormon blacks couldn't have the Priesthood until 1978? Yeah, I guess only in the name of religion and "my church is true", does that make any sense. I guess it's all about priorities for that funny Mormon God, isn't it?

You have to admit that "pray about it" BS, is completely absurd, in the big picture!! You hear this BS "God answered my prayers" once a month in testimony meeting.

I guess it's simple; God loves Mormons!!

As for Adams trangression, all were affected by his decision, everyone.

You still didn't answer my question; your second article of faith clearly states the following:

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

So, if man is NOT punished for Adam's transgression, why are black people punished for Cain's transgression of killing Abel? Does that Mormon article of faith include everyone but blacks, who are cursed and are taught to be Satan's representatives on earth?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:43:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Sam, arguing about mormonism is out of the question with you, we should probably start with religion 101, rather than jumping straight to why blacks could not have the priesthood. So according to you if there was a God, nothing bad would ever happen, no one would ever feel pain, or happiness, no death, nothing. No one would never harm one another, nothing would ever happen, so this argument would have to begin as to if there is a plan or a purpose to be here. As for why you chose mormonism, I am confused, it seems that you should be focusing on christianity as a whole, not just mormons, I am sure you could dig up all sorts of garbage on almost any religion in the world today, the internet is full of RELIABLE sources of information. It seems that your issue deals with anyone that believes in God as a whole, and maybe you feel Mormons are the easiest to attack.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:47:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey welcome Elder Joseph and you'd better listen to Joshsuth, because he knows me better than I know myself. In fact, he knows all about us evil anti-Mormons and we lie about everything and only use bogus anti-sources, which must include all of the books I've used that are official Mormon doctrine and for sale at Deseret Book, Jesus' one and only true bookstore. You'd better not be my friend or associate with me, because I don't believe in his Mormon God or the God of the Bible.

I'm very dangerous Elder Joseph and he is trying to warn you as a Mormon, because he has the "spirit of discernment" and represents the only true God, as a member of the "one and only true church on earth."

Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are? Just because I don't believe in your God, I'm what, evil, vile, stupid, dangerous? Explain why it's so bad for Elder Joseph to associate with me? You don't think he's done his own research, doesn't have a mind of his own and just sits there like a little baby birdy, waiting for me to bring him his worm, like you do with Hinckley? You insult him and don't even realize it, as if you are the beacon of truth.

Oh and where did Elder Joseph say that he saw what I say as the "word of God?" A little exaggeration there eh? Come on...he never said any such thing and you know it, so get back on topic Josh and don't make accusations for which you have no support or evidence of. It makes you look really bad.

Okay, back to the topics on hand, before we were rudely interrupted by your unnecessary commentary Josh.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:48:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

The transgression of Adam occured while in the Garden of Eden, which as you pointed out was necessary for the plan of God(which GOD you dont beleive exists)to happen. So you do know what the consequence was of Adam when he ate the Fruit right? So I will ask you Sam what was the consequence of Adam eating the fruit?
Now as for the transgression of Cain, as you know it occured long after they left the Garden, long after Adam had transgressed and caused what he did, so the curse was put on them so that they could be distinguished from the others.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:55:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

This is your comment "Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are?" Please read Sam, never in my comments did I tell him who to be friends with, I have many non-member friends, and friends that dont believe in GOD. I simply asked him "Elder Joseph, Let me ask you a question, if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic?" So once again please dont put words in my mouth. Thanks

Now your quote
"Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are?"
Does this statement not contradict your whole entire BLOG? LOL Thats all this site is dedicated to, to tell people not to associate or become MORMONS? To influence people away from mormons? It sure seems that way to me!

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:00:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Again, you are clueless in everything you just said in your last comment. I was a freaking(toned it down for your sensitive Mormon eyes) for over 30 years, did 4 years of seminary, served a 2 year, honorable mission, graduated from BYU and got married in the temple and had plenty of responsible callings, just short of being in a Bishopric.

So, I started with Mormonism, because that was what I was my whole life and just over the last year, have I taken a look at Christianity and all organized religion as a whole. So, I should just scrap anything I've done up until now, which has all been part of my journey and just focus on Christianity now?

You see, I consider Mormonism to be a very dangerous cult, that divides and destroys individuals and families and that's what I was my whole life and I know it inside and out and it will always be my primary focus. If I had time to do blogs on the JWs, SDAs, Moonies, etc, I would, but I don't have time.

I've lost best friends, one of over 30 years and family members, for simply asking them if they knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist. They called me a damn liar and refused to look at the evidence that I was telling the truth. They said that I should be ashamed of myself for telling such lies.

My niece was taught that polygamy started and ended with Brigham Young in that year of seminary and if you go to the "official" Joseph Smith website, it would confirm that he was never a polygamist, since it makes no mention of them and just his loving wife Emma, who he lied to as he committed adultery behind her back. Joseph Smith denied he was a polygamist till the day he died. He was a liar, plain and simple.

Oh, and I don't need religion 101, but you desperately need logic 101 and how to escape a brainwashing cult 101. Sound fair?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:05:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

I could have sworn that you said:

joshsuth said...
You read the little posts this guy makes and you think its the word of GOD. Its crazzy, you know he does not even BELIEVE IN GOD!!!! Does that not sink into your head? Yet you come to him for advice about god and religion? Does that not sound wierd to you?

Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:23:00 PM

My bad, I realize now that wasn't you...sorry about that and yeah, I just made it up, like everything else I talk about, that I just get off of anti sites, since I'm too dumb in your eyes, like Elder Joseph, to do my own research.

Do you treat your non-Mormon friends like you treat me and Elder Joseph? Do you arrogantly assume they are idiots, because you have the "one and only truth?"

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:08:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...


you said " if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic? NO, so if you want to learn how to become closer to GOD, do you go through someone who has no belief in God or Christ? Explain please "

I wanted to know about the Mormon church so I wnet and still do and have done for nearly two years now ..

But they didn't tell me the truth ...
1 the Missionaries don't themselves the real version , I teach them about a Head in a hat and its a shocker to them like it was to me especailly when we learned about an Urim and Thummim and how honest the church is ?

2 Those who do know , then choose to keep quiet . So either way I don't trust the church anymore , simple as that ..

You might ask why do I keep going ? Well have many friends there now and some rely on me for help and rides to church etc

This is what you do , you befriend people , love bomb them , tell them they have grown alot , tell them they are feeling the spirit but haven't noticed .In fact you'l say anything to get a convert or retain one who was silly enough to fall for the missionary sales patter and extreme pressure to baptise .

The church isn't true and you will know that someday too .

And before you are tempted to say my view doesn't make a difference , you should see my missionaries , how much they have grown since studying with me ! they are feeling a different kind of spirit now , the spirit of real truth .

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:09:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Have I not responded to you logically?I answered every question that you have asked me. Obviously we dont agree on alot of points, You dont believe in God, I do. Sorry that you had such a hard time as a mormon, I have personally enjoyed every minute, it brings my family closer together, makes me happy and thats all that really matters to me. I believe in it wholeheartedly, and the church has always been there for me. So that sucks you had such a bad experience.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:16:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Elder Joseph, I am sure you are teaching the missionaries alot, you need to realize, I have been hearing this stuff forever, we have horns and hoofs, we all have multiple wives!
Let me ask you a question, if its such a miserable place, why do your friends keep going, why does anyone keep going, if its bad as you say it is, then why would anyone go? Oh were brainwashed, come on, please, give us some credit. If the church is so bad, then you better stop taking your friends, you better save them. I talked to thousands just like you and sam on my mission, so its entertaining talking to you guys, i dont come in here expecting to change anyones mind, i enjoy debating this topic, but you should find something that makes you happy then, cause its nice to have something that makes you feel good, whether it be the Mormon church, or your own way of keeping in touch with God.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:20:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Sam you never answered my question about the consequence we recieved from Adams transgression, also, what do we need to do to overcome that transgression? Since you know so much about our doctrine, you can show everyone on here how knowledgable about the church you are. Awaiting your respopnse.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:20:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

So what happens someday Josh, when your wife or one of your kids or your best friend discovers the church is a complete fraud, based on lies, adultery, racism, sexism, all justified through the Bible, BOM, POGP and the D&C?

Will you condemn or abandon them, will you harass them to return, will you warn them that they are throwing away their eternal salvation? Will treat them as you treated me earlier, giving them absolutely no credibility whatsoever? Or, will you allow them to make their own choices and respect them, even knowing that you'll never see them again in the next life, unless your drop down from your Celestial glory to see them.

Everything is great in Mormon-land, as long as everyone stays in line, believing and doesn't step out of "the Village." When someone actually researches and uses common sense and discovers the fraud...their life of hell begins and they are the persecuted ones. The church has call centers that do nothing but try to track down the so called "in-transit members", in order to reactivate them and get their tithing and offering money flowing back in.

Do you recall the talk a couple of years ago, by Lynn G. Robbins? He said when given a choice of feeding your family or paying your tithing....drum roll PAY YOUR TITHING, of course.

Would you do that Josh? Would you starve your family, in order to pay tithing? I'm thinking that yes, you would do that, probably in a heartbeat.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:21:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...


I don't bring my friends to church . I bring the church members who I've made friends with while investigating and I've helped rescue one convert and another one has my Grant Palmer book now !

I've done alot of research , alot of prayer and I get only one answer and that is to be ' Honest '.

I can't join a church which has taught the American Indians that they are descended from Lehi when they simply have not... Its a tragedy and an injustice to make converts of them on this fasle teaching ..

The church needs to apologise to them and explain that The Book Of Mormon is false and they are sorry about the mistake . But instead they will arrogantly continue as if nothing is wrong and that they are Gods only Representatives speaking in truth .

They haven't taught a truth since it all began , because there is no truth in them . If it wasn't so tragic it would be a great comedy.

I listened to Samuel Podcasts and he is telling the real truth about the church and I hope you will do also one day ....

your analogy of do we go to a mechanic for a haircut ?

Do we go to Mormon Church to learn the truth ? No we don't , we learn a bogus version of what really happened and we learn how to praise Joseph Smith for dragging God and Jesus out of a 1700 year holiday ?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:26:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Its past midnight London time so i'll catch up with you all tomorrow ...

CTR ! lol that means be honest as well , even about the church to Investigators .

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:27:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

Sam please answer my questions and stop using little analogies....You claim to be an expert on our doctrine, you brought up the transgression of Adam, so please answer my questions. As for if my family member left I would support them, my sister is currently inactive, but I still love her.
Please answer my questions

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:42:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Oh sorry, I forgot to answer that one. Well, considering that I went through the temple probably 40 times or so, I think I might know the answer...what do you think?

I'll just use what is said and taught in the temple, since that is the most official version, right?

From what I remember, God/Father says they will die and Satan tells them that they will become wise and shall not die but will be as the Gods, knowing good and evil.

So Eve at the fruit and had her eyes opened and then told Adam to eat and he didn't want to, but then finally did eat it, because he didn't want to be left alone in the garden, like Even told him would happen and he wanted to be able to multiply and replenish the earth, which they obviously couldn't do, if they were separated.

Adam then eats the fruit and says that it's better to go through sorrow and know the difference between good and evil, etc.

The official doctrine states that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the change that took place in their bodies, was the blood formed in them and now they could die, feel physical pain, etc.

They were just flesh and bone and then became flesh and blood. If you want to take it further, Brigham Young preached many times, that Adam was God your Father and that ADAM was GOD, which became the famous Adam-God doctrine, that Spencer W. Kimball(and McConkie) both declared was false doctrine and that someone would be condemned for believing it.

So, I'll end this segment by asking you if Brigham Young led the church astray or not? If it was false doctrine, according to another Prophet and a Prophet was preaching it as fact...hmm...looks like leading astray to me and is pretty simple.

So, did God remove Brigham Young for this?

I would be more than glad to provide the very specific quotes of Brigham Young preaching this doctrine of Adam-God, if you doubt me or aren't familiar with it, which I'm sure you are.

Did that answer your question and was that what you were looking for?

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:50:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

I am an expert on true Mormon doctrine, probably far more than you are and I was responding to your question while you were waiting and I do have some other things going on in my house right now, so chill it dude...did you read it yet?

What "little analogies?" Asking you if you would starve your family and pay your tithing? That's a perfectly good question and you should own up to it and answer it. You too ashamed to say that you'd starve your family?

One of your servants of God, a Seventy, preached this doctrine in a General Conference, which is living scripture to you and it was approved by King Hinckley what's the problem?

Be more specific as to what you're referring to in the future, so that I don't have to guess and go off on something that isn't even what you were referring to. It will keep the conversation more fluid if you could do that for me.

Have a great night Elder Joseph and thanks for stopping in!!

May Joseph Smith look over and protect you tonight from Kolob...LOL!!

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:06:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Well, this one is taking you a long time and we'll have to continue this at another time, because I have to make dinner, feed the kids and then get ready for my Skypecast, which you are welcome to join. It will be at 10 PM Mountain time.

Take care and I'll talk to you again some time and just respond to whatever you leave here next and we'll go from there.


At Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:12:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

You did not answer my question, Go read Alma to find the answer, I asked what the consequence was, not what happened to thier bodies, what the consequence was, I will give you a hint, there were 2 deaths associated with the fall of Adam, this is concerning the first one, I am surprised you did not know the answer to that, are you sure you studied mormonism for 30 years, you should of studied this forever on your mission, its covered in the 2nd discussion, anyways awaiting your answer, I will give you the answer to Adam-God theory also. Thanks

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:22:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

As for starving my family, I would pay my tithing, because you(THE MORMON EXPERT) should be very familiar with the church welfare system, which helps provide food and those types of things to the members who need it, I am sure you could find that info on the internet somewhere. So pleas understand how the church works before you use your "little analogies" to prove nothing. Thanks

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:22:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Dude...come on, you know that I know the fucking answer and now you are just playing games and reverting back to asshole mode again, from over on Youtube and I'm glad you did, so that everyone can see it here too. I thought I'd been pretty decent, but then you have to be the arrogant prick that I know so well. You want to revert back to that, then so will I, as I treat others as they treat me and no better. It took you over 20 minutes, to come up with that? By the way, I read the Book of Mormon 12 times on my mission-twice in English and 10 times in Spanish and many times since and they are marked up like a Christmas tree.

I gave about every detail and then some, as everyone can read and obviously they died spiritually, which is a given(any dumb-ass would get that from what I said) and what caused the blood to flow into their bodies.

Everyone knows that the BOM preaches that if they hadn't eaten the fruit, that they would have lived in the garden for all eternity, playing with the Lions and sheep, like they were little babies with no fucking clue what they were doing there and they wouldn't have had kids that would have sex with each other and maybe even Mommy and Daddy. Good thing God/Adam, had Satan, his other son, come down and trick them, right? Like I always say, thank God for Satan, because you religious fanatics, would be nothing and no where, not even existing without him. Hurry, run...he's gonna get you man!!

I guess that was like a victory for that how you work it? I'll ask you about something and if you don't mention the very specific and exact thing I want, I'll run and declare victory and say, see, see everyone...he doesn't know shit, after all those years in the church...grow're pathetic, you really are!!

I'll dumb it down for you:

Eve was tricked by the serpent Satan and then convinced Adam to eat, so that SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE ALONE, because she died spiritually and he needed to die spiritually too, so that they could have sex, have children and then have sex with their children or their children with each other, basically a God-ordained orgy, so that they could multiply and replenish the earth through God promoted incest.

Did you get it? I can't believe how ridiculous and pathetic you really are!!

Oh yeah and then about 2,000 years later, God, who knows the beginning from the end, MURDERED through DROWNING, every person on the entire earth, that came from this in-breeding of Adam and Eve and kids, except for 8 people on the ark. Oops...I didn't mention the animals, so I didn't know there were animals on the ark, right?

I hope that everyone here saw what this Mormon Apologist Josh tried to pull on me, which is typical of these dishonest, pathetic Mormon apologists. They pull shit like this, after basically getting schooled 25 different ways and then they run and tell everyone about their victory.

Of course, I won't allow this bullshit and I'm glad that we have this example for everyone to see. Of course, I never learned anything about this in my 30 years and I'm an idiot....LOL!!

By the way, I did mention that after eating the fruit, they could now die physically, according to the cult doctrine of Mormonism.

Finally Josh, Mr. "little analogy himself", please describe how the "welfare system" works in South and Central America. Describe it in detail for me and if you leave out one little detail, you're a dumb ass who doesn't know shit...LOL!!

A few last questions and you'd better get these right on too, or I'll declare your stupidity again:

Who is the Father of Jesus Christ? Did the Father of Jesus have carnal/physical intercourse with Marie and who was she the polygamist wife of? Where did the seeds and animals here on earth come from originally and who does Joseph's Mary actually belong to and who is she with now?

I could go on, but we'll see what level your deep knowledge of Mormonism goes to.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:24:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Oh and no surprise that you'd starve your family and blindly follow and bow your head and say yes. Maybe they have you bow your heads and say yes, out of the shame you should be feeling? Ya think?

I hope for your families sake, if it ever comes to that, that your Bishop isn't an asshole or new, trying to impress the Stake President.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:45:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

All I wanted was the answer to my question, not some long drawn out degrading of a "mormon apologist" or however you spell, yes because of adams transgression we could die physically which the ressurrection of Christ overcame, not that Christ means anything to you at all.
I get the feeling that as a member you must have had no self-esteem, just wander around the church feeling sorry for yourself, so you develop a blog and solicit donations to your cause.
As for getting schooled 25 different ways, could you please point out to the 5 people that comment on your blogs, where you schooled me?
And you never answered why you got mad at me for asking Elder why he would come to you, you critized me for telling him who to be friends with, but at the same time, your doing that to people about mormons!! So explain yourself. And its kinda funny how many people we are captivating on this blog, I think a total of 1 person besides you and I have been on here.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:50:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

As for your welfare system here is a link you can read,
Now I know that the church does not do near as much as Mormontruth.blogstop to help those in need, I am sure you donate millions of dollars to those in need.

At Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:54:00 PM, Blogger joshsuth said...

I also enjoyed your post on IM the missionaries, your catholic?? LOL Since when, would that be considered a LIE? And you were calling Adrian a LIAR, and a HYPOCRITE, but at the same time you are lying to her, so does that make you a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE? Please answer that question, I am excited to here your response, it should be good. I am sure you will rant and rave and call me names, I am just curious as to your response.

At Friday, July 13, 2007 9:05:00 AM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...


Is the Book Of Mormon a literal history of Israelites coming to the Americas and the American Indians being the pricipal ancestors of Lehi ?

If so How do you explain the fact that the Indians look like Siberian/Mongolian ASIANS and have similar features tothem and their DNA matches them as well for ancestory .

Also why are Siberians dark skinned like their Indian counterparts in America .if the book of Mormon curse on Lamenites is true then it must have reached Siberia/Mongolia as well !

Is it possible that sometime in the future , your church will anounce the Book Of Mormon to be fiction , some kind of long parable and that its had its time and now you will focus on the bible and become a Christian denomination instead ?

I can't see a future in this church as it it .Its having to lie for converts .. The Indians and Polynesians are not Israelites ...

The whole thing is a hoax from Joseph Smith .He probably thought he was getting revelation but so did David Koresh and Jim Jones ....

The church has done two major U turns already , Polygamy and Blacks and the Book Of Mormon will be next !

I wish reality was different but it isn't .If there was ever a church I could call home then Mormonism would have been the one , but not in its present state of denial and sheer arrogance . I couldn't introduce my family and friends to a gross injustice to Indians and Polynesians . Goodness, telling them they are the people of the Book Of Mormon when they simply are not .

When I was investigating the church , I was listening to Samuels podcasts and I have to be honest but he is right about the church .He sacrificed his life for the church like yourself and all good faithfull members and can you imagine the horror he felt when he came to find out he'd been deceived by the very church he loved and trusted to be honest and they weren't !

I'm still active in church as an investigator but its going to be impossible to join with a clear conscience ... I go because I have Mormon friends now , whether they were assigned to me or not I don't know ! lol I'm sure they are genuine and I love them .I can't bring up anything in church , its a nightmare .The bishopric know I know the real truth so now I have freedom without pressure to get baptised .

You can stay in denial , but the issues won't go away and church growth is slowing dramatically .The only converts I've seen are African ASYLUM SEEKERS and they are using the church for their own ends , and I don't blame them , they need help and I admire the church for not judging them and taking them on in good faith .

Future Church Prophets/Apsotles will come from Todays Generation who know about the problems and they'll change things . I know already what will change before it does so why should I insult my own intelligence and follow the prophet when he is light years behind the times .

At Friday, July 13, 2007 1:23:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

First of all, this Josh character/pathetic Mormon apologist, immediately goes over to Youtube and just starts lying to everyone, like he's been trained to do since birth.

Josh said to me, on Youtube, before we started to chat here:

"lets get on your blog on talk then, how do i get one, this will be fun"

I said:

"Just head on over there and start leaving comments and then I'll start responding. I'll OPEN IT UP so that I don't have to approve comments while we are talking. Sound good? See you there in a few!!"

Then, after we started talking, this is what Josh tells everyone over on Youtube, after I'd lifted all restrictions, as promised:

"we are on his blog now, commenting on the first post on his blog, it takes him forever to respong though, and HE HAS TO APPROVE MY COMMENT BEFORE IT POSTS. kinda stupid"

Was he clearly lying...yes, and he knew it.

Then, when our debate was over for the night, as you can read in the comments above; I said I had to make some dinner, prepare for my Skypecast(which I wasn’t able to do, due to work complications that I had to deal with...sorry’s rescheduled for tonight) and that I'd answer when I was able and we'd go from there, etc.

So, he goes back over to Youtube, about 10 PM last night and says to me and everyone else:

"where did Utahnite go? It seems if he cant block you, and control whats talked about, he does not want anything to do with you!! LOL, his blog is entertaining, you should read it."

So, he's still lying out his ass, claiming again, that I was blocking him, censoring him, controlling what he was saying and that I took off with no explanation. Earlier he had said that I was afraid of him, so I guess this comment is in line with that one.

I hadn't been on my blog since we ended our debate and hadn't been on Youtube since around 2 PM, when we started our debate, which he also knew. Of course, these are all facts that he doesn't want anyone to know and he assumes, with his arrogant God-complex, that nobody will figure out, because we are all too stupid.

Wow, this guy is really a bad, possibly pathological liar and I wouldn't be shocked if it was Daniel C. Peterson or one of his disciples or a FARMS guy, since lying and being deceitful, is part of their everyday life and who they are as people; born and raised liars from birth...that is one of the fruits of Mormonism, as Mormonism teaches people to lie and deceive.

I just barely(after having moderation turned off for our ENTIRE debate, as Josh clearly knows) reinstated my "moderator approved comments", for the record, so that True-Believing-Mormons, with temple recommends, like Jose/Raul/asshole, won't come on here and start celebrating again and cheering for those Mormon missionaries that have struggled and come home depressed, early from their missions and decided to blow their brains out through tragic suicide, as one of my friends very sadly did.

He called it a victory and hopes that I'm next and yeah, well, we don't need that type of bullshit on here and I won’t allow it. He was leaving around 50 comments a day, re-posting the same things, over and over, on all my blogs, all hate, vile and wishing death upon all ex-Mormons, accusing us of everything under the sun, as you all know, so I had to go to moderated comments, unfortunately. It was something that I didn’t want to have to do, but it was vile, filthy, Mormon, temple recommend holder, that forced me to do it.

Of course, Josh would argue that I'm afraid and terrified of the truth and him, which has nothing to do with it, even though my blog was completely unmoderated, with only one deleted comment(that spoke of doing horrible things to a child, with vulgar language), for over a year and a half as everyone that has been reading it since the beginning, already knows.

So, it wasn't done just for the God-complex Josh and if we decide to have another debate, I'll turn the moderation off again and he can then go lie AGAIN to all of his Mormon buddies on Youtube, about how I'm censoring and moderating his comments again. I have nothing to fear from these Mormon losers, because I have "the truth" on my side and they have nothing but lies, fraud and fairy tales, to support their bullshit story based on racism, sexism and outright bigotry. Yeah, but we’re the haters, and “disease germs full of darkness”, for pointing out the truth of their teachings and fraud. Get a new line guys, cause you only look dumber every time you repeat it.

I will now respond to the latest bullshit comments of Josh, the pathetic Mormon apologist, who wouldn't know the truth if it fell out of the sky and hit him square on his "God in embryo" head. It must be sad to be so brainwashed and not even recognize or realize the truth when someone presents it to you...but that's the life of a deeply indoctrinated, brainwashed cult member. Then again, maybe it isn't that they don't recognize it, but just don't care about it?

"All I wanted was the answer to my question, not some long drawn out degrading of a "mormon apologist" or however you spell, yes because of adams transgression we could die physically which the ressurrection of Christ overcame, not that Christ means anything to you at all."

I mean, this is religion 101 and so basic, most small children, raised as a Christian, would know it...but thanks for the religion lesson. I love how you trash me for not believing in your God or the God of the Bible and consider me completely unworthy of ever discussing religion with anyone, but then bitch about me telling everyone that you're a Mormon apologist(however you spell..LOL).

I would say that you aren't worthy of having a logical or rational discussion about anything, especially regarding the existence or not, of a God, because you don't have any ability to think logically, or normally and don't even know what it means. If anything contradicts Mormonism, it's bad, evil, a lie, false, anti-Mormon, etc and you're sticking to it, because "the church is true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is true." Anything for the Mormon cult, right?

"I get the feeling that as a member you must have had no self-esteem, just wander around the church feeling sorry for yourself, so you develop a blog and solicit donations to your cause. As for getting schooled 25 different ways, could you please point out to the 5 people that comment on your blogs, where you schooled me?"

Wow, now, in all of your arrogance, you’re going to tell everyone what I was like as a member, because you know me so well and my entire life history? And you bitch about me calling and treating you like a Mormon apologist? LOL!! The hypocrisy here is just oozing everywhere and any reasonable person can see it, which excludes you of course.

So, let's see, you said that I "had no self-esteem, just wander around the church feeling sorry for yourself, so you develop a blog and solicit donations to your cause."

Well, thankfully, I was raised by great parents with great self-esteem and self-confidence my whole life and the only thing that ever affected my positive self-image or self-esteem, was the damn Mormon cult, telling me what a worthless, piece of shit sinner I was. Every little thing is so horrible and they just hammer their members, especially missionaries and they wonder why they lead the entire country in use of anti-depressants, suicides and increase of sexually transmitted diseases.(watch my video on Youtube.)

And yes, I just wandered around the church feeling sorry for myself, as I worked my ass off for 2 years on my mission and returned home honorably, despite all of the bullshit and corruption I had to deal with on my mission. I wandered around feeling sorry for myself, when I was the Elder's Quorum President, teaching Sunday School, doing splits with the missionaries, allowing missionaries to hold their discussions at my house, etc. Truth is dude, you don't know me and don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about. Must be that God-complex again eh?

I ask for donations because of the personal time and money that I have dedicated to this cause, and those that I have helped, gladly donate, just like you might donate to your cult's building fund, in order to help them in building malls that will serve booze, etc. Also, I always try to offer something else in return for their donations. Unlike your tithing, that requires the literal starving of your family if necessary, to buy your way into "The Lord's house", I don't force anyone to give me money and it's completely voluntary. What’s wrong with that? Is tithing voluntary? What happens when you don't pay it, besides the Mormon God turning off the "blessings" switch and closing the "windows of heaven and locking you out of his son’s house?" What are the repercussions of not paying tithing?

I have a good friend, who is a die-hard true-believer, who has payed his full-tithing for all of his life(well over $50,000 in just tithing) and recently ran into tough times and some financial difficulty and he needed about $300/month, for about 6 months, until he was able to recover from his situation and get his head above water. So, as you suggest and Lynn G. Robbins says to do, he turned to his loving church, and Bishop, that will always be there for full-tithe payers or non-members, which shouldn't be a problem for a multi-billion dollar corporation, that is currently in the process of spending around 12 Billion in Salt Lake, on multiple projects, when it's all said and done, right?

Anyway He went to see his Bishop who said no problem(after they went through every single bill and expense he had, and he’d made him agree to turn off his cable, Internet, etc), and said we can help you and of course, assigned him to do free labor for the church(because the $50,000 he has freely donated is meaningless), in between the 2 jobs he was then working, to try and fix things.

Well, they helped him the first couple of months and all seemed well, he kept working, helping, even volunteering for many other things and projects that he didn't need to do and then....the Bishop was released and changed in the middle of that third month and a new Bishop was called. So, he assumes everything will continue as it has been and then gets a notice that the amount of money had not been paid and he was in deep trouble, because of it, as they had it all set up through the Bishop. So, he goes to church that Sunday and sees the new Bishop in the hall and asks if he can meet with him and he said that he was booked that day with appointments and didn't have time, but maybe during the week or next Sunday. He also mentioned that he knew about his situation and that it would be taken care of, he had nothing to worry about, as my friend informed him that the bill hadn't been paid and that he was really stressed out.

Well, he went home and called the place, told them it would be taken care of and then another week went by, with no payment made and he was now getting nasty phone calls and really in trouble and the amount had still not been paid and my friend was now a liar, with the pressure mounting, since he told them that it would be taken care of. So, assuming that they'd just gotten busy or forgot, being the new Bishop and all, that next Sunday, my friend finally meets with his Bishop, who informs him that they can no longer help him, that month or in the future, because there's a new 3 month rule in the church, on any and all help, from finances, food, etc and that if you haven't resolved the problem within 3 months, it's no longer their problem and that he needed to get his life in order.

He then lectured my friend on personal responsibility, told him that he'd been irresponsible and that he had to take responsibility for his life, debts, family, etc and that he shouldn't use the church as a crutch, because that wasn't what they were there for. He told my friend that this new "3-month rule", was in the Bishop's handbook of instructions and the whole time he was talking to my friend(who was physically ill at this point and pissed that he was lied to), the Bishop was flipping through it, saying that it was in there somewhere, that he'd just seen it earlier that day and that he'd find the 3 month rule and show it to him(as my friend requested, because he didn't believe him and felt he was lying)...and he never did find it, to show my friend, but just said, "trust me, it's in there."

So, in this Stake at least, here in Zion/Utah, there is a new 3 month rule for all assistance, no questions asked, even for food and it doesn't matter how long you've paid your tithing, how much you've paid, how bad your hurting or why. It's black and white and you are cut off at 3 months, no matter how much work you're doing for the church or volunteering for, in addition to what was asked of you and required. My friend is still a true-believer who pays his tithing, despite the horrible results of that situation, which resulted. He uses the famous Mormon saying “the church is perfect and the people aren’t.” My response to that is, that the people ARE the church and the church is only as good as the people in it and running it.

So, is this the wonderful, God inspired welfare system that you are speaking of Josh? You have a better chance of getting help if you're a non-member in New Orleans, after a massive hurricane and flooding, then if you're a life-long, dedicated, tithe-paying member...Why is this? Maybe because they are hoping to be seen helping in New Orleans, with their COJCOLDS shirts on(while they film everything, with their magically appearing cameraman, to show in between the next session of General Conference), and get lots of future converts, either there or through their 1-2 hour special, that they'll keep showing on the BYU channel or KBYU, after General Conference.

Oh by the way, since you refuse to actually answer 95% of my questions, including the one about the welfare system in South and Central America, I'll answer it for you and educate you on yet another matter that you know absolutely nothing about, while pretending to be the authority on it, by giving me some link from 1999, talking about the church's welfare system in the USA and how it operates.

The welfare program as we know it here, is non-existent in South or Central America and other places like Africa and they get nothing from the church, unless another local member, donates it. The problem is that they are all so poor, nobody can afford to donate anything to anyone, since they are trying to barely survive, pay their debts, feed their families, and oh yeah, pay tithes and offerings. So, when someone in Argentina, for example, can't feed their family properly, they don't have the option that Lynn G. Robbins mentions, when he says, "The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant." BULLSHIT!!

I personally knew a branch President and great man, on my mission, who lost his job, couldn't find another, and literally had NOTHING to feed his family with, which included his wife and a kid. He actually talked to the District President and 1st Counselor to the Mission President, to explain how desperate his situation was and see if anyone could help him and the answer was NO, there was nothing they could do for him, because there was no welfare available, period. Sadly, both of these men that he’d talked to, were pretty well off and they didn’t offer him one scrap and didn’t give a shit. Can you imagine? Actually, I’m sure you can, because you would even starve your family to pay your tithing.

As missionaries, we were taught to NEVER give money to members or help them financially and I was a very obedient, by the rules kind of missionary...but I broke the rules this time and convinced my companion to also break the rules, so that we could give them money and buy them food, which we did, as we couldn't watch them literally starve and DIE, like the Mormon leadership could. If the Mission President had found out what we did, we would have been in big trouble for what we'd done, because they don't want anyone to "rely on" the missionaries for any help.

I also know a guy, who served in Colombia about 20 years ago and he helped convert a family whose family has a lot of problems, the dad can't work, the Mom is raising kids and grandkids and the church can't help them at all either. He has been generous and been sending them monthly money for over 20 years now, so that they can survive. Now why would he have to do this, if the Mormon Church's (non-existent) welfare program was there to help them. I mean good Mormon God, why would they reach out and help people after literally robing them through fear and threats? I mean hey, their eternal life depends on it and their Eternal salvation hangs in the balance of paying that tithing.

If paying tithing is really to help people, or God’s kingdom and children, then why can’t people take their tithing money and help who they want to help. The Mormon Hierarchy don’t even tell the faithful tithe payers what they’ve done with their money or who it has helped. It’s basically, “give me your damn money and don’t ask us where it went, EVER.” I have a family member who wanted to help someone in the family each month with their tithing money, but when they asked the Bishop about it, they were told “absolutely not” and that they had to continue to pay their tithing to the ward, if they wanted to keep their temple recommend. He said they had to go see their Bishop....but THEY weren’t even Mormon. My relative said, well, how about if I give you the money and then you transfer it to the Bishop where they live and he can give it to them. NOPE, that won’t work either, as he’d have to look at all their finances, grill them on why they needed help, etc.

Well, my relative said okay, left his office and hasn’t paid a dime of tithing since and continues to help this family member each month, who desperately needs the help. Now, is that love? Is that compassion? Of course, the Mormon God is raging angry and they are now unworthy to go to the temple(the Lord’s house) and they’ve basically lost their eternal salvation. I’m sure you love that story Josh and that it just made your testimony of tithing even stronger. I mean what a crock of shit!! It’s either give your tithing to us or you’re screwed. Threats and fear is how they rule and what it’s all about. They actually punish someone for helping family and putting their family and loved ones first. In fact, the exact words of the Bishop were: “God and the church comes first and your family second.” My relative said, “well, I disagree, I put my family first and the church second.” The Bishop wasn’t too pleased with that.

Oh, and my favorite line from that article you linked to, was "Church leaders knew they had to help but didn't want to give people a handout." Amazing, isn't it, that they want everyone to work their asses off for any help they get, pay for their own missions and expenses to WORK FOR THEM and don't "want to give people a handout", but yet they do absolutely nothing to earn their money and expect nothing but handouts, from EVERYONE, EVERY DAY. Damn hypocrites!! I'm sure they make you proud Josh and you support and defend it all.

The hypocritical Mormon Hierarchy assholes, just lounge around in thousand dollar suites, given to them for free by Mr. Mack(they just hate giving handouts, but will receive them anytime), the head of the MOTAB and then travel around in luxury cars(Hinckley's are given to him by Larry H. Miller), private jets(donated for free by John Huntsman) and then they stay in 5 star hotels, eat the best in fine cuisine, all on the tithe payers money/handouts and expect everyone to bow down and kiss their ass, and not ever criticize them, even if the criticism is true.

Like I said, they're a bunch of hypocritical assholes, that live on nothing but fucking handouts, everywhere they go, every single day of their pathetic, miserable lives. Oh, and they love to leave their 5 star hotel, after eating a great breakfast, and take their luxury car over to the chapel and tell the missionaries what worthless shit they are and that because of their sins, mainly masturbation, they aren't baptizing enough people and that it's all their fault. Some missionaries in attendance, may have parasites, be very physically sick, are getting no medical attention, live in horrible conditions and maybe even puked that morning or while they were at the church waiting for Mormon royalty to show up. Do the GAs, Mission President, or leaders care...most of the time, no, they don't and it's very rare when they do.

I speak from very personal experience on my mission and from experiences of many friends, most of which are still TBMs, with no reason to lie about it. Oh yeah and when the Apostle or Seventy shakes your hand, they can see right through you and your light and they know if you are bright or dim and sinning, masturbating, etc. In other words, it's all a crock of shit and anyone with half a functioning brain cell, looking at the facts and evidence, could easily see that. On the masturbation note, Google “Kip Eliason” when you get a chance and let me know what you think. The church settled out of court on that one, which is pretty rare, as Jesus’ Lawyers are always ready for a big fight and love to re-victimize the victims, to save them money and their reputation.

Also, I’m just curious, off the subject, but are you also supportive Josh, of the Mormon Hierachy’s attempt to cure homosexuality through the abuse use of gay shock and vomit therapy, with the use of hard-core porno, being done in secret? Yeah, this was done right on Jesus’ campus of BYU, as last as the 80’s and is probably still going on for all me know. Ever listen to the John Dehlin interview with Buckley Jepson, or watch the videos on Youtube, that describe what was done to them? It’s horrific, but “inspired of God.” Ever watch that MTV special, of the guy that went through it. This is fact!! Gee, I wonder if the degrading use of gay shock/vomit therapy could lead someone to depression, low self-esteem and ultimately suicide? Nah, I’m sure they all take it in stride and come out straight as an arrow, with no more homosexual desires.

"And you never answered why you got mad at me for asking Elder why he would come to you, you criticized me for telling him who to be friends with, but at the same time, your doing that to people about mormons!! So explain yourself. And its kinda funny how many people we are captivating on this blog, I think a total of 1 person besides you and I have been on here."

Well, first you denied ever saying anything like that, right after you said it, so thanks for admitting it, after I had to re-post your EXACT comments and remind you of what exactly you said, since you had quickly and conveniently forgotten. It must have been the extreme need to lie, just kicking in again. Does it just come natural, like it's second-nature now for you?

Anyway, I don't tell people that they can't be friends with Mormons and I don't control anyone. I simply tell "the truth" about Mormonism and expose the Mormon apologists/liars like yourself, so that everyone knows what you and those like you are all about.

Again, to explain it to you, since you are so damn dumb...there wasn't one person on the blog yesterday, rather over 100, who looked at about 400 pages on my blog, which is normal. You seem to have your head up your ass, AGAIN, in thinking that just because people don't comment, that they aren't there. Also, why would you bother debating someone so worthless as stupid as me, who has a blog that no one reads and podcasts that no one listens makes you look pretty idiotic, doesn’t it? The truth is you know the opposite is true and are just lying AGAIN, which should just be your middle name, right along deceit, fraud and pathetic!!

I guess that also means that nobody ever visits LDS.ORG either, right, because I don't see any comments there at bad, so sad. You're an idiot, you really are and you can't think past your skull. But, if it makes you feel better to keep insisting that nobody ever reads my blog, that nobody ever listens to my podcasts(1,132 downloads yesterday), that I haven’t helped anyone, that I don’t influence anyone or have any impact whatsoever then keep saying it and ignoring the truth and facts, just like you do with Mormonism. I guess it's the Ol' "if I say it enough, it makes it true", right? LOL!! Oh yeah, and tell your Mormon Hierarchy and their sidekicks to quit reading my blogs and complaining about my videos, because they sure are concerned about me.

"As for your welfare system here is a link you can read, Now I know that the church does not do near as much as Mormontruth.blogstop to help those in need, I am sure you donate millions of dollars to those in need."

You have no idea what I personally do to help people, nor what my family does and guess what, I don't need to mention it all here and brag about it like your fucking cult does, with their bullshit PR/advertising pieces they throw on between General Conferences. Of course, now you’ll say that because I didn’t list all that I and my family do, it means we aren’t doing anything and that’s why I don’t want to talk about it. Just trying to save you the time, by giving your answer, so you don’t have to. Of course we don’t have billions like your worthless cult does, but we do plenty with what we have and do as much as we can.

The Mormon church has not publicly revealed their finances since 1959(why?), despite Hinckley lying and saying that all tithe payers get to see them and that they only share that info with them. Thanks to the guy in Oregon, suing the church for $45 million, the Oregon Supreme Court ruled just yesterday, that the Mormon church now has to open their secretive books and reveal everything to the world, if it goes to trial. I’m guessing they’ll pay the $45 million and settle out of court, but I sure hope not. All I can is FINALLY, if the books are opened, somebody has nailed these corrupt bastards, who claim to give so much and we'll learn the "real truth" and how many tens of billions they are really worth and how little they give.

In the UK, where they've always had to report it by law, in 2003, the Mormon church spent 2.982% Of its revenues on grants, welfare and humanitarian aid. For the year ended 2003, the GB branch of Mormonism, took in £23.3 million in tithing, £5.0 million in cancellation in indebtedness from the Utah corporation, and £0.74 million in other income, totaling about £29.1 million in unrestricted income. Of the £29.132 million received only £0.948 million was spent in grants, humanitarian aid and welfare, representing only 2.982% of total income, as I mentioned above.

They also have to report in Canada and the latest numbers show Assets of:

Cash, bank accounts, and short-term investments $ 85,008,000.

Here is another part of Lynn G. Robbins "pay your tithing and don't feed your family talk":

In October of 1998 Hurricane Mitch devastated many parts of Central America. President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet's message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing.

But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Malachi 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).

President Hinckley taught them that if they would pay their tithing, they would always have food on their tables, they would always have clothing on their backs, and they would always have a roof over their heads."

So, let's review again, Hinckley said:

"...many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet's message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and BE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW OF TITHING."

He then promised them, "if they would pay their tithing, they would always have food on their tables, they would always have clothing on their backs, and they would always have a roof over their heads."

So, were they not full tithe payers before, so God couldn't protect them and in fact punished them. What about those that were full tithe-payers, but lost everything...oh yeah, the Prophetic promise hadn't been given yet, but NOW, they are safe, as long as they pay a full tithe and now they will be safe FOREVER, right into Eternity with Joe Smith in the Celestial Kingdom.

So, to recap, they get wiped out by a hurricane, lose everything, including food, clothing, and household goods and many probably lost their houses....and Hinckley flies in on his private jet and thousand dollar suit(both handouts)...gets driven over in a luxury car(most will never even have a car) and tells them "to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing."(and give him more handouts)

Yeah, who's that gonna help...Hinckley and his cronies, not the people that need it. I'm surprised that he didn't withhold all assistance, until they started paying a full tithe or painted a fence or something, because the church hates to "give out handouts." Hinckley then leaves in his chauffeured luxury car, goes back to his 5 star hotel, eats some great food and then flies home on his private jet, exercising, relaxing, etc, waiting for the tithing to flow in from these poor people that lost everything and who have nothing. I wonder if they have to pay tithing on the value of any food they get from the Mormon church? Why not?

While we're on the subject and since Josh brags about just going to the Bishop anytime, for anything, with no problems if you need help and can't pay the bills, because of the $5,000 a year you "handout" to the Mormon cronies; let me share a couple few more examples of how badly the Mormon Hierarchy want to literally rob and steal the poor, to fill their own coffers.

"Now, in the April 2001 General Conference, Earl C. Tingey, shared an example of just how truly desperate the Church is to get "something" from even the poorest of poor:

I was once teaching the law of tithing to a group of Church leaders in Africa. One brother said, “Elder Tingey, how can I pay tithing when I have no income?” I inquired and determined that he had a large family of seven or eight children and was unemployed. I asked how he fed his family. He said he had a small garden and raised geese. I asked, “What do the geese do?” He replied, “They lay eggs.” I responded, “What if one morning you discovered 10 geese eggs in the nests of your geese?” A light flickered on in his soul. “I could take one egg and give it to my branch president,” he answered. He understood, and he could become a full-tithe payer.

You see that? The Church is so poor, that they need some poor family's geese eggs!! Wow, things must be getting bad eh? Truly inspiring!! Amazing that an “unemployed” man, with 7-8 kids and nothing but a garden and some geese, has to pay anything to be considered worthy. Actually, it’s revolting!!

Here's another great story, by God's 3rd in command, to make my point clearer than a blue sky on a clear day. Now these were President James E Faust's comments during the groundbreaking of the Porto Alegre Brazil Temple:

(The article on this speech is archived on the Deseret News Website, and came from "The Church News." If you don't believe me, go look it up.)

He emphasized the need for Saints all over the world to begin to sacrifice for temple building. He recalled how, when the Sao Paulo Temple was being built, members in Argentina found ways to donate.


This sacrifice has been the HALLMARK of the success of members in the Latin American nations, he noted, indicating that THE SAME PRINCIPLE OF SACRIFICE IS NEEDED TODAY, WHERE MEMBERS CAN REACH OUT TO HELP THOSE IN OTHER AREAS

Wow, have you given the church your gold fillings yet everyone? How about you Josh? Have you turned over all your gold, diamonds, etc? He is asking for “the same principle of sacrifice” from all members. Do it for The Lord Josh, he needs your money and every cent you have, right down to your Gold fillings. Just pull them out and hand them to your Bishop on Sunday and God will bless you. Maybe you can even sell them to Faust, and he can add them to the ones he keeps in his pocket, to show “various congregations.”

Like Lynn G. Robbins says:

"No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of "They can't afford to" needs to be replaced with "They can't afford not to."

"One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing."

So, that's Mormonism's welfare/tithing in a nutshell. They rob and steal from the poor and live off of their handouts, while not wanting to give handouts to the members, that are giving them handouts every week. But yeah, I'm just an anti-Mormon and don't believe in your God Josh, and everything I just said is nothing but bullshit, lies and fabrications, including the talks I quoted from. The truth hurts, doesn’t it Josh?!!

"I also enjoyed your post on IM the missionaries, your catholic?? LOL Since when, would that be considered a LIE? And you were calling Adrian a LIAR, and a HYPOCRITE, but at the same time you are lying to her, so does that make you a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE? Please answer that question, I am excited to here your response, it should be good. I am sure you will rant and rave and call me names, I am just curious as to your response."

I'm glad you enjoyed it, as did I. I love lying to the liars and deceivers. They lie everyday of their life and when confronted with the truth, they're just like you and they excuse it, justify it and make up anything to try and change the subject, like "pray about the BOM and if it's true, none of your questions or doubts even matter.” Why should I be honest, with some of the most dishonest liars in the world?

Police have to lie and set up stings all the time, in order to catch criminals and liars, sexual predators, are they liars and hypocrites too? Are they in the wrong? You lie and deceive constantly in your comments and claim to be a big time Christian/Mormon. I suppose you would rather the criminals run free, if it means that the cops have to lie in order to catch them right? The difference is that I have the truth on my side, when "lying" to the missionaries and I have to "lie", in order to expose the "real liars." I do it for the “greater good”, just like you do Josh, which is how you apologetic Mormons make excuses for all of your dirty deeds and lies that you say and commit daily.

Mormon missionaries lie every single day, to people all over the world. I don’t completely fault the innocent, completely brainwashed ones, that really don't know the truth and facts, because they are just brainwashed from birth and following the command of their leaders that have told and taught them lies and how to properly lie and brainwashed them, in order to be able to manipulate people emotionally, to join their cult and do their dirty work and even die if necessary.

Anyway, I asked you a ton of questions yesterday, that you never even wanted to touch, trying to turn our discussion into, "how can we even talk about anything if you don't believe in my God." Wow, how lame is that? That is how I easily schooled you pal in 25 different ways and probably at least 100 now, after this comment, as you won't want to touch or respond to the majority of things I’ve said in this comment either, because you can't answer or defend them intelligently, most of which I've said, without looking like the complete dumb ass you are. It’s easier to just not answer and create diversions and try to just cut down the other person and question their intelligence, discredit them, etc. I may trash you and cut you down and tell everyone how stupid you are, but at least I do it while I’m responding to your bullshit nonsense and in context and oh yeah, it’s true and painfully obvious to anyone that is logical and can read.

Anyway, make sure to explicitly answer every question and you'd better include every thing I want to hear in your answer, or it will prove that your a dumb ass, that hasn't learned anything in lifetime membership in the Mormon cult.

Just so everyone knows, if you haven't been able to read our other comments, I'm being facetious in that last statement, and just saying to him what he said to me, when I left out one thing that he was looking for, in my response to his Adam and Eve question. I didn’t explicitly say it, so I didn’t know anything, after 30 years of being a Mormon.

Take care everyone and feel free to jump in and comment, as I don't expect we'll get much from Josh in response, who doesn't have a clue about anything, which has already been proven here multiple times.

Oh, and for the record, I don't care what anyone wants to believe and they're free to believe whatever they want, just as I am. Where I have a problem, is when they start to openly condemn me, my wife, my family and tell us that we can't be together in the next life, unless we follow and obey them and their beliefs. The Evangelicals condemn me, my family and friends(and even you Josh), to literally burn in hell, in flames, with Satan, for all eternity and are worse than the Mormons.

I respect guys like my good friend Elder Joseph, who believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and it helps him to live a good life. In other words, it works for him and makes him happy and I have no issue with that. He doesn’t condemn me or tell me that unless I believe what he does, that I will burn in flames with Satan for all eternity or be separated for all Eternity from my loved ones, friends and family. He believes as I do, which is that everyone has the right to believe what they want, but that we don’t have the right to literally threaten others with hellfire and damnation, or eternal separation from family, unless they follow us. I don’t force anyone to believe anything, and neither does Elder Joseph, as we are all free to choose, even those in the KKK, but I don’t have to like it, when it’s something offensive, horrible, racist, bigoted, sexist and hate-filled.

I also don't stand by and let people like you Josh, that belong to a racist/bigoted cult, publicly call me a liar, when I call them out and expose the truth and racism, etc. Nothing pisses me off more, than racists and bigots, who belong to a racist/bigoted/sexist cult, that then want to justify it all as nothing, while telling everyone that it's not true and that I'm just making it all up. Fortunately, when you get outside the little Mormon village(far less than 1% of the world's population), people have brains and common sense...with exception to the fanatical Evangelicals and other fanatical religions and cults and extremists out there.

Josh, I also found your whole Adam question and my having to respond, rather ironic, considering Adam and Eve(and the 6,000 year time-line of the Bible), are most likely just a fairy tale and never even existed. Nobody even knows for sure who wrote the Pentateuch, which are the first five books of the Bible, or where they came from. Moses may have written certain parts, but sure didn’t write about his own death, did he? Writing from the grave...why not? Anything is possible in the Bible. Did the person who wrote the 5 books, actually talk to Adam and Eve directly and get a first hand account, or just make shit up as they went along? Oh, I know, god revealed it to them, in a Joseph Smith First Vision, right? Why didn’t Adam and Eve write down anything...or Jesus either for that matter...where they illiterate fools? Wow, not a good plan by your God, to have no first hand accounts, by the most important people to ever live on his earth, eh? Everyone used to think it was Moses that wrote the Pentateuch, without a doubt(like Joseph Smith), but now it’s up in the air and no one really knows for sure who did. Only Fundamentalists, conservatives Christians and other Evangelical Christians(and Mormons) actually believe Moses wrote them without a doubt and that every single thing in the Bible is 100% real and literal.

So, you’re going to base your world history and life view, on anonymously authored books, that don’t jive with any reality or science discoveries, when nobody even knows who wrote them or where they came from? Yeah, that sounds great to me!! LOL!! And I’m the dumb one? Hell, nobody even knows who authored Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and that’s sad!! Logically, nothing from the creation and Adam and Eve and Satan, even makes logical sense. It’s the same thing debating whether Nephi should have cut off Laban’s head, as it would be to discuss whether Mickey Mouse had a big fight with Minnie, because she was too friendly with Donald duck. But I believe that really happened and Mickey, Minnie and Donald are all real, because I was taught that from birth and my burning bosom confirms it. Walt Disney is my Prophet!!


At Sunday, July 15, 2007 4:55:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...


I just looked on the world time clock and and it seems I'm 7hrs ahead of you in London Time ... so its difficult to come onto your skypecast....When you are on 9pm/10pm its 4am/5am for me .... maybe we can rearrange one sometime for midday Salt lake time or somewhere close , then that would be 7pm for me evening time ..... or just a casual chat sometime on skypecast if you want to ..

For me this Mormon religion has been an amazing journey and experience and I did hope in a way that it was true ( even though I didn't like the arrogance of we are the only true church on the face of the earth bit and the somewhat strange fast and testimony meetings ) and I wasn't sure how I would have coped or accepted these apsects , except perhaps if you really do believe it , then maybe you can't see the arrogance in it all .

Well its easier to believe in the church if I based it on my feelings . Attending church and being a part of the social structure does bring good feelings and the people are generally sincere and that’s the tragedy of it as well as the beauty of it . But having discovered how the early so called Prophets and Apostles conducted themselves and treated women in the Polygamous nightmare , then it shakes my conscience .I can't accept all the bragging and gloating of having many wives ( and the nature of calling young teens to marry OLD men ) is not any part of any gospel or God's will . Its obvious to me and any normal human being that these men were ‘deficient ‘ . I don’t know if the early church attracted these creeps or created them in all that self righteous gloating .

Then there is the total disprespect and contempt the church has for these women .Their memories are just trodden into the dust . No mention of them on any church DVD's or Church websites , Ensigns, or other publications for learning .It’s as if they didn't exist and yet they served faithfully this obnoxious and revolting supposed calling . Surely they deserve credit and honour amongst Latter Day Saints for having endured this awful period in history ……..

But its not something that’s behind the church because as much as they claim to be monogomists, the underlying belief is still polygamy and until they tear out Section 132 and reject it as an error then I couldn’t be a part of it all. Same with the Blacks/Priesthood Ban ….. no one really wants to discuss it with me at church .At least it tells me that they have a difficulty with it also .

I think if I was brought up in church and all my family was involved or affected by it , then it would be difficult to accept the reality of it all being ‘false’ . Its so easy to just ignore the issues .

But how long do you ignore the plight of American Indians and Latin Americans being told they have a heritage going back to Lehi in the Book Of Mormon when they simply don’t have .

How long can you ignore the fear and apprehension that polygamy puts in LDS womens hearts .. I see how painful it is for them when I ask them .. its so cruel , yet they choose to believe somehow ? but they have a false fantasy image of Joseph Smith .
They will even denounce my Richard Bushman book as antimormon !

How can I ignore the teachings on black skin people .This church should have led the campaign for justice and not lagged behind if it was really ‘truth Restored personally by God and Jesus Christ ‘ ..

There are just too many things that have kept me to Investigator level .. Now I have a constant dilemma of having to break aspects of church history to my missionaries .I don’t delight in seeing them shaken , they are just good young kids easily manipulated by church authorities , but I need to be able to express to them why I’m hesitating to be a baptised member … This church has a lot to answer for and is responsible for any heartache caused and not me . I am just telling the truth in the end and many times I feel guilty for doing so and I shouldn’t.

Church lessons and Sacrament talks are getting harder to be enthusiastic about and I can feel a little of how some members who are aware of the issues eventually just break and finally go for the exit ! I think there are one or two in church who know the real details now . Its not possible for them to not have browsed the net out of curiosity.

It’s not easy for me to suddenly leave all those friends behind . All the hopes and prayers and fasts they did for me to get my ‘ answer’ and I did get the answer but it was by investigating properly , the history , the founders , the current accuracy and structure of teaching.

When they mention Joseph Smith in Sacrament meeting as an example for us all to follow , its then when I feel the urge to make a run for it !

Thank goodness I didn’t get baptised and then find out , the anger would have been too hard to have contained .

I think in the future they will have to deal with the reality of the Book of Mormon being Josephs fiction , but because it’s the Corner Stone of the church , they will prefer to keep patching the holes in the sinking ship .

At Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:03:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

WOW! What have I missed!?


At Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


love your blog, but you'd be a lot more effective if you could make the answers shorter. don't take that as a criticism, just a suggestion -- because i agree with you on everything!

At Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:24:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very interesting blog. I think the hardest thing for most people to fathom is the fact that, after all is said and done, every person is ultimately alone. I guess that's why religion is so successful. So many unscrupulous people have preyed on that fear for so long. Question: If your sole purpose in life is to help other people, spiritually, emotionally, physically, why would you live in luxury while others suffered and struggled?

At Friday, April 17, 2009 10:37:00 PM, Blogger brisa said...

From my point of view the evolutionism is a fraude a fake and the "principles" that the two atheist sustained is just the wish to do what you like without subordonation to a Greater Creator wich is God.I know many people who are atheist and let me tell to you they are not happy and they try to fullfill their lives with entertainment like money ,jules ,faim ,pornography,wearing fancy clothes and other way's to arrive to fullfilment to be happy body and mind but this is not possible and olso tried many religions like :budaism,hinduism.taoism,wicca,satanism ,philoshopy,darwinism,confucianism and other doctrines but their lives changed when they converted to christianity and become the true christian i speak about the true christian not the fake one so i wanna ask a question to all :Do u can see the love? the wind? or our thoughts? so i invite the atheist to explain that i asked scientificaly because they belive just theyve se right?


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