Monday, March 12, 2007

The Evangelicals Are Planning A Massive Door To Door Campaign In Utah, On March 25, To Distribute The New Joseph/Jesus DVD And Try To Convert Everyone


I've been sitting on this story for well over a month now and I wanted to wait until the radical, fanatical Evangelicals had all their ducks in a row and plans for March 25 set in permanent cement and and stone. I didn't want to give them much advance warning, which would allow them to easily change the day or alter their tactics and plans. I also didn't want people to forget what they were going to do, by reporting it too soon. The "code name" for this project is "distribution 3:16", referring to John 3:16. It is going to be a nationwide distribution, but I'm focusing on the Utah part of "distribution 3:16."

Now, I've actually watched this new video that they are going to hang on everyone's door on March 5 and the facts in it are pretty good, the video is pretty slick and professional and I normally wouldn't care what these fanatics are doing(since they are exposing Mormonism), if they didn't have an agenda that reached the moon, Kolob and beyond.

However, when the ultimate goal of this video and everything they do, is to convert everyone to their belief system, their God/Jesus and they actively preach that everyone who doesn't believe as they do, will literally burn in hell, with Satan forever; I have serious issues with them and I do not support what they are doing.

For those that want to watch the video and know exactly what I'm talking about, here is the link and for the user name, type in "MISSIONARY" and then "SAINTSALIVE" for the password. I'm guessing that once they read this post and the word spreads; the link will be quickly removed, so watch it is as soon as you can, if that is your intention.

Open and blanket condemnation of all Mormons specifically, which is what these folks do on a daily basis, is unacceptable to me, since I still have many innocent family members and friends in the Mormon cult. I felt that the Mormons in Utah deserved some advance warning about what these guys are gonna be doing. I'll just put out the info, as the messenger(which is what they claim they are for their Jesus) and then let the Mormon Hierarchy, its members and these Evangelicals go at it for the next 3 weeks.

Apparently many other Christian churches are also against what these guys are doing and are also putting out warnings to all Mormons, about March 25, which is a pleasant and unexpected surprise.

Of course these radical Evangelicals are very upset about this and can't understand why these other Christian churches, who they thought were one with them, don't want to be so damn hateful and publicly support them on their mission of condemnation and hellfire. It's amazing that these fanatical Evangelicals just don't get it, isn't it?

So, they want to bring all Mormons to the light, which is their "one and only true light", and feel that the best way to do it, is to openly and strongly, on a regular basis, condemn them to burn in hell with Satan for all Eternity. What am I missing here? Is that the best way to approach somebody that you claim to love and care so much about? Yet they condemn Mormons for saying that they have "the one and only true church." So, what makes them so right and Mormons so wrong? They each have their own interpretation of things, right?

Now, let me share some of the private and "secret" plans of these guys. They like to actually use the term "TOP SECRET"...LOL!! Hell, you'd think they were heading into a real war or something the way they talk about what they're gonna do. Let's just say that these guys have a big time mole in their organization, that keeps me well informed, as to what they are doing and I appreciate it very much...Thanks!! I don't even know who this mole is, as everything is sent to me anonymously, from anonymous Email, but so far, everything they've sent me is spot on and that's why I'm posting this, without any fear that it isn't true.

The following information was sent to me about a month ago:

PLEASE COPY THIS LETTER AND HAND IT OUT WITH EACH SAMPLE DVD

Dear Fellow Christian,

Enclosed is the sample copy of the brand new Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith DVD.

CAUTION: This video is to be viewed by CHRISTIANS ONLY until AFTER the nation-wide distribution which is scheduled for March 25, 2007. In-other-words, do not allow any Mormon people to view the video or learn of our intended evangelistic outreach until after March 25, 2007.

Why such extreme caution? If the leadership of the Mormon cult learns of our plans, they will publicly instruct their people not to watch the video and many Mormons will blindly obey.

ABOUT THE NATION-WIDE DISTRIBUTION AND EVANGELISTIC OUTREACH:

All that is required – HANGING THE DVD ON DOOR KNOBS THE VIDEO DOES THE TALKING and, in fact, we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete.

The reason for this approach is because the Mormon Church instructs its members to not receive any materials which are not "faith promoting" in regard to Mormonism. By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it. After the DVD is in their home many will, out of curiosity, watch it.

We encourage distribution of DVDs in neighborhoods surrounding LDS churches and/or Temples. Consider the following facts gleaned from previous similar distributions:

FOR MORMONS - The DVD will be instrumental in leading them out of Mormonism and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

FOR NON-MORMONS - The DVD exposes the false teachings of the Mormon
cult. As a result, people who view the video are much less likely to be converted to Mormonism and these people often use the information found in the DVD to challenge their LDS neighbors and/or LDS missionaries.

THIS OPPORTUNITY IS TRULY A GOD SEND – God has led the producer of this video to freely give the DVD to Utah ministries (a gift exceeding a quarter of a million dollars). The producer has also offered this DVD at the production cost of .50 each to any Christian ministry outside of the state of Utah who will agree to participate in the NATION-WIDE distribution on March 25, 2007.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormonism, is one of the largest, most powerful, and fastest growing cults in the world today.

Most people have been deceived into thinking that Mormonism is just another Christian religion. Most LDS converts are proselytized from Christian denominations.

Within the state of Utah, the number of Mormons has steadily declined over the past 10 years which teaches us three things:

#1 - Within Utah, we are doing a fairly good job of combating Mormonism;

#2 - The growth of Mormonism is outside of the state of Utah which makes this NATION-WIDE distribution essentially important.

#3 - The Mormon Church is vulnerable. We firmly believe that with enough exposure, Mormonism will crumble and become a shadow of what it is today.

Please join us in our efforts to shut down the Mormon machine and lead a multitude of lost souls out of this cult and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We believe that meditation upon JOHN chapter 15 (the entire chapter) will encourage you and answer your questions as to whether you should participate. WE CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR HELP, PLEASE HELP US.

For more information or to order quantities of DVDs contact Chip Thompson at:

E-mail: ephchip@gmail.com Phone: Office –

435-283-0178 or Cell – 435-851-4588

=======

Now, I have received other information and I'm gonna just summarize it and point out the highlights from the other documentation that I've received.

They are asking for donations from all over the country, in order to collect $6,000, to air the Joseph Smith/Jesus DVD the same day they distribute the video, March 25, on channel 16 here in Utah(and in LA County, California on PAX). Channel 16, is one of the local channels here in Utah, that has a lot of religious stuff and preachers on it all the time. They are hoping for a few hundred thousand people to see it in Utah and potentially 5 million plus in LA County.

Now, it looks pretty good that they will raise the money, because in reality, they only need $3,000 and the guy financing the video, will kick in the other $3,000. I could give you the address of where to send donations, but I won't, because I don't want to appear to support their cause in any way, shape or form, not that most people reading this would even want to help them in their cause.

Now, they are officially calling this an "outreach" in their correspondence, but please....they want to condemn and then try to convert, and then condemn again if they don't convert to their ideology, that's all. Now, the number that they are throwing around, is that around 200,000 DVDs have been donated by this ex-Mormon Christian, just to Utah alone, to all be distributed on March 25. They are asking people to pray that all the Christian churches, including the pastors and congregations, will want to get involved, especially in the Provo/Orem area, but they aren't having much luck in that area, as I mentioned above and I found it downright funny and ironic.

Here they are, the radical, fanatical Evangelicals(preaching my way or the highway to hell), with this huge project and hardly anybody wants to join them in openly condemning Mormons and distributing the DVDs. I give huge kudos to these Christian churches that have refused their invitation and won't join them in their pathetic crusade, because they themselves find it offensive, knowing what they are trying to do.

Even they know and understand that these radical Evangelicals are out of their freaking minds and too fanatical and will only hurt their true "outreach" to Mormons. They know that their methods are nothing but methods of failure, offense and hate. The fanatical Evangelicals are claiming to be so upset by this unexpected turn of events(being rejected by so many Christian denominations), that they are very sad and asking everyone to pray for a change in heart of the pastors and especially from the biggest Christian church in Utah county, which has also turned them down.

They've even asked the question, "what is the point of these churches(that turned them down), if they won't Evangelize with us against the Mormons?" Wow, I guess they really do think they are the chosen people of God, don't they? Are they now actually condemning other Christians too? Are those who refuse to participate going to burn in hell and gnash their teeth for all eternity too?

What is so wrong, with these other Christian churches, wanting to be friends and friendly with Mormonism and not create more tension than there already is? Wow, how evil, how awful!! It's BLASPHEMY damn it!! Yeah, they don't want to be seen as anti-Mormon or offensive to the Mormon community and dare we say; they want to actually try to be Christlike and live up to the term "CHRISTIAN?" Oh no, we can't have that, can we? Too bad Eric, Aaron and the rest can't take a lesson from the example being shown before them, of Christianity, if they truly love Mormons so much, as they claim to.

Eric Hoffman even basically condemned Greg Peterson(I think that was his name- as he's one of the Christians here in Utah, trying to close the divide between Mormons and Christians) in our Skypecast(which I'll hopefully release by tomorrow), for trying to build on common ground with Mormons and not Evangelizing and openly condemning them like they do. Can you believe it? They are actually really pissed that so many Christians are actually trying to reach out, with real love and sincerity to Mormons, which is something they'll never do or understand. It's so far beyond their ability to comprehend, they are just shocked. They want fire, damnation, hellfire, gnashing teeth, blanket condemnations, pain and anguish, but all in the name of their supposed "real love" for Mormons and their Jesus/God....how pathetic!!

Also, according to Eric, all of these other Christian denominations(and Sandra Tanner) openly condemn all Mormons to "burn in hell for all Eternity", just as he, Aaron and Calvary does, but it sure doesn't look like it, does it? Maybe if these other churches do actually believe that all Mormons will live in hellfire someday, they just want to approach them in a nicer, less abrasive, forceful way, before condemning them to burn forever? It's funny how these radical Evangelicals talk about Mormons being so easily offended, when they are offended by every word Mormons and people like myself say about them.

In other words, they can dish it out complete with fire from above and threats from their God/Jesus, but God forbid you come back at them or challenge them in anyway. Nobody is more sure of themselves and arrogant, claiming that they have the "only truth", that I've ever met in my life, than these fanatical Evangelicals.

Now, one comment that stood out to me, was how they are so sad, that so few of these Christian churches want to help them in this "outreach" and instead are willing to let all the Mormons in Utah, "spend eternity in a lake of fire." Here we go again, with the hellfire and damnation, for ALL Mormons, who don't follow them and their "only true path." These people need some professional help in my opinion!! They seriously need some type of intervention.

At this point, they are flat out desperate for people to help them pass out these DVDs and it doesn't look good at all, as they keep asking for everyone to pray, pray and pray some more. Personally, I hope their little project falls flat on its ass, which it looks like it might, especially with the advance warning from myself and all of these other Christian churches that have rejected them and their cries for help. Who would have thought that I'd be sort of teaming up with other Christian churches, to expose the fanatical Evangelicals and their little plan, in order to warn and help Mormons? LOL!! Funny turn of events, isn't it?

It's also funny how it isn't enough for them to simply reveal "the truth" of Mormonism(as I and so many others do), but that they then have to tell them and basically FORCE them to follow them and their beliefs or yes, live in flames and a "lake of fire for all eternity." What happened to free agency and freedom of choice? What happened to allowing people to decide for themselves, what they want to believe and allowing them to discover what is best for themselves and their family after leaving Mormonism, as I do.

They are so terrified that these Mormons don't have a "saving relationship with Jesus Christ." Who are they? Are they God? Do they literally speak for God?!! I guess they think they do. There's quite a history of people who claim to speak with God and that he speaks with them, and they aren't all good stories folks, going all the way back to the Old Testament. They want people to leave Mormonism and be saved, so that they can wake up everyday and look in the mirror, as so many fanatical Evangelicals apparently do and say "I'm worthless, I'm a pile, I don't even deserve to live."

The fanatical, Evangelical guy the other night, on the "Mormon Truth Skypecast", said that he(and everyone on earth) "was a pile", "was a filthy sinner from birth", "deserved to be massacred", "deserved to burn in hell", "deserved to be burned in flames", "was a sinner from the time he left the womb" and even that the children and innocents(he calls them sinners) in Africa, that are being brutally slaughtered and/or dying of starvation, DESERVE IT!! This is the wonderful Christianity they preach?

He also flat out said(and those that were there can verify this), that those children who died in New York, in that awful, tragic fire this past week(including a little baby), "DESERVED TO DIE, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL EVIL SINNERS, WHO DIDN'T DESERVE TO LIVE, JUST AS HE, NOR ANY OF US DESERVE TO LIVE." Holy shit...are you serious!! This is happiness and joy? Yeah, this is the best, that radical, fanatical Evangelicals have to offer the world...no thanks!! Who the hell wants this shit?

They think this is a good alternative to the demands of Mormonism or any other religion and will make people happy or happier? How could anyone live their life that way, feeling that they are so damn worthless and nothing in the eyes of God? Anyone got stats on the suicide rates of fanatical Evangelicals? Then again, maybe they are just all talk and just say that shit for attention and shock value, but really don't believe it...who knows?!! Sadly, I think they do truly believe it and that is the most disturbing and sad part about it. I think their cult is far worse than Mormonism, which is pretty damn bad.

Anyway, back to the "distribution 3:16" topic...since they've been rejected by so many other Christian churches, which has completely shocked them to the core; they are convinced that it's Satan himself, God's old nemesis, standing in the way of their distribution plans and I'm sure they'll consider me(and anyone that comments here), to now be an official part of Satan's grand plan too...LOL!!

It's funny, they sound just like the Mormons, claiming that Satan is at every turn, just waiting to trick and deceive you, hinder you and destroy you and lead you down to complete and utter destruction. Now both the TBM Mormons and the fanatical Evangelicals will think I work for Satan himself....SWEET!! He's really not that bad to work for guys...give him a break...LOL.

I'm sure my anonymous Christian mole, has been planted by Satan too, right guys? Wow, that Satan is one tricky, slick, intelligent and powerful guy...uh..serpent, isn't he? Too bad their loving/hate-filled God/Jesus guy can't figure this stuff out and warn them in advance or tell them who their mole is, so that he/she can't keep leaking me this information, which is exposing to the world, their "TOP-SECRET" plans on how to deal with Mormons. I guess they need to take a look around and do some house cleaning, using their claimed inspiration from above. Their God will guide them, I'm sure of it, since they have "the one and only truth."

Look, here's the bottom line: I know that posting this information will only piss them off and create more enemies for me and more people that hate and despise me and what I do, which I don't give a rat's ass about, obviously. I gave up caring about that a long time ago in this journey, so why stop now? Besides, it should help them fulfill their Prophesy about Satan attacking them and trying to hinder their work of truth, etc.

In fact, it will probably confirm to them the truth of what they are doing, right? Gee, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's called a persecution complex, which they also suffer from in a big way. They supposedly love opposition, so now you've got some guys and your dreams are coming true. I'm glad I could help you out.

Hopefully, it will help the common Mormon to know and understand that I don't hate or condemn them, rather their hierarchy and all of their lies, fraud and deception. I do have compassion for the "innocent" Mormons that are happy and that don't know any of the stuff I've discovered over the last 21 months(and don't want to know it) and I feel that it shouldn't be forced upon them, rather something that they go looking for, when the time is right for them. Somebody tried to FORCE it on me about 10 years ago and I just knew, without a doubt, that they worked for Satan. It wasn't my time and I wasn't ready yet, plain and simple.

But, I felt that everyone should know what these fanatical Evangelicals are up to and that they will be trying to FORCE their propaganda on everyone and approaching their houses, uninvited, similar to what Mormon missionaries do and what I and many of you once did. It's offensive and wrong, no matter what truths their message contains, since they are deceiving innocent people, just like the Mormon missionaries are, unbeknownst to the majority of them of course.

However, the difference is the majority of Mormon missionaries really are completely brainwashed and believe everything they are saying and don't believe they are tricking anyone, since most of them have been indoctrinated since birth, just like I was. These Evangelicals know exactly what they are doing and are not innocent, at least the ones running the show and planning this type of shit. They know that they are putting out this video, in order to then tell Mormons that they had better follow them or "burn in hell forever." What BULLSHIT!!

In other words, they aren't little 19 year old brainwashed kids, rather grown men, doing what they do best, which is bait and switch, to further their pathetic cause,knowing full well, exactly what they are doing and they are proud of it. Yes, they too believe in their cause strongly, just like the Mormon missionaries, but are knowingly using dirty, filthy, underhanded and offensive tactics to accomplish it. I guess it's the ol' Mormon/Hinckley phrase of "nothing is too good for the Lord", right?

To prove the point I just made, let's revisit once again, some of the instructions(posted above) being included with each DVD:

All that is required – HANGING THE DVD ON DOOR KNOBS THE VIDEO DOES THE TALKING and, in fact, we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete.

The reason for this approach is because the Mormon Church instructs its members to not receive any materials which are not "faith promoting" in regard to Mormonism. By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it. After the DVD is in their home many will, out of curiosity, watch it. We encourage distribution of DVDs in neighborhoods surrounding LDS churches and/or Temples.

Did you all catch that? "MORMON PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF REFUSING TO ACCEPT IT." You see, they don't believe in free agency at all or letting people choose for themselves; rather they want to FORCE their beliefs on others, which would be the Mormons in this case. My blogs, podcasts and videos are all optional as you all know and anyone can leave anytime they want or refuse to ever read them or comment, if they accidentally come across them. I don't FORCE myself on anyone, rather I give them COMPLETE FREEDOM OF CHOICE, to choose what they want to do with their life.

At least the Mormon missionaries have cojones and aren't such wimps, like these Evangelicals, that are not even willing to engage the Mormons in honest discussion and actually ASK THEM if the want their damn DVD. Why? Because 95% of people would tell them to go screw themselves, especially in Utah, just like they do the Mormon missionaries, all around the world, when trying to hand out Books of Mormon. I never personally gave anyone a Book of Mormon on my mission, that I didn't at least talk to and ASK if they wanted one.

At least have the common courtesy, courage and decency, to actually talk to them, face to face, instead of this underhanded bullshit approach that you've been instructed to use by your cult leaders. Come on guys...if your message is so damn wonderful and so full of love for the Mormons and world and your Jesus/God is running the show; EVERYONE SHOULD WANT ONE, RIGHT?!! But no, you just want to slip it on their doorknob and run, like little 2 year old kids playing a game. Grow up and do it right!! I'm sure they'd respect you much more(until you condemned them of course), if you actually talked to them and didn't cower in fear.

So, hey, all you die-hard, radical, fanatical Evangelicals out there; why don't you back off, and try showing some real "Christian love" and let people decide if they want your damn DVD or want to hear about how you condemn them to burn forever, instead of cramming it down their throat or putting it on their door knob without their permission.

Respect them, respect their properties and respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe. If they have a change of heart and want to know about what you're teaching, I'm sure they can find you, since you guys are all over the place and supposedly all teach the same exact things. If it isn't about them joining one particular church, then you won't care where they join, right?

I don't know Utah laws on this type of thing, but is it even legal to do this? I mean as I've mentioned, at least the Mormon missionaries actually try to talk to the people, before asking if they want the BOM, unlike you guys, who actually instruct everyone, explicitly, NOT to talk to them, in order to pass out your DVD.

I also know that there are neighborhoods and cities, that have outlawed door to door solicitation of any kind, so I encourage everyone reading this, especially those living in Utah, and those around churches and temples particularly, to find out what your cities laws are and then help enforce them.

If it's illegal in your city and they leave their DVD at your house; report them to your local city or law officials and that should put an end to it for the future. If they don't respect you, your space and home, why should you respect them, especially if it happens to be illegal.

So, be prepared everyone as March 25, 2007 is the big day for the TOP-SECRET "DISTRIBUTION 3:16" and approaching soon, when these Evangelicals will be canvasing neighborhoods, targeting you in their crusade of condemnation; that is if they get enough people and churches to do it and help them out. I mean if this is just a Calvary chapel deal, or a few churches here and there, I'm guessing it will go down in flames, as they can't have that many members. In any case, the cats out of the bag and now everyone knows their "secret plans."

I guess time will tell, but I look forward to your comments on this now and after March 25, if your house is one of the "lucky" ones, that gets a DVD. If they come to your house, whether your Mormon or ex-Mormon or never-Mormon...please try to engage them in a conversation regarding their motives and make them violate their "rules of engagement" by forcing them to actually talk to you. After all, the longer you can keep them talking, and stall them, the less DVDs they'll be passing out, right? LOL!!

Samuel the Utahnite

Labels: ,

36 Comments:

At Monday, March 12, 2007 12:35:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Congrats Samuel!

The MAD Board (AKA THE FAIR BOARD) linked to your site while mentioning this blog post.

Bond

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 5:02:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

a dvd is FORCING them to believe. come one.

thanks for the email and phone number--i let them know about your blog

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Thanks Bond for the comment. Did hell freeze over? Yeah, I never thought I'd see that day...where FAIR/Mad linked to me...LOL!!

Like I always say and have shown with this post...as much as I'm against Mormonism and the hierarchy past and present, and the horrible teachings and lies in their history; the good, common, innocent members at least deserve people to be upfront with them if their goal is to condemn them and then try to convert them.

For those that are interested, here's the link:

FAIR/MAD discussing this topic

They're up to 137 comments already.

Samuel

 
At Monday, March 12, 2007 5:35:00 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Anon,

Did you read the part in their official letter, being handed out with each video, that says:

"we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete."

and

"By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it."

That's trying to FORCE them to accept it. Whether they end up watching it or not, is up to the individuals.

By the way, what did they have to say about my blog when you called them? Where they happy? They certainly haven't bothered to contact me that I'm aware of and I have my blogs and a very public Email. If they want to discuss it with me, they know where to find me.

I'm just glad that everyone now knows about their "TOP-SECRET" plans and the word is spreading like wildfire, all over the Internet. I wonder if they had a plan B?

Samuel

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:09:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I feel differently about this whole DVD thing than you do Samuel.

Mormon missionaries go out into the world by the tens of thousands every year to try to get people to join their church. They often are not as subtle as hanging a DVD on a door, but rather they harrass people into conversations all the time.

I feel that any other religion should have equal opportunity to come to the bastion of mormondom and do their preaching by knocking on doors or passing out videos.

I do not care if the videos are trying to convert people to Christianity. I think it is high time that Mormons get a teensy weensy insight into all the lies and deceit and garbage they have been heaping upon people for over 170 years.

I agree that trying to convert people to Christianity is similar in some ways as trying to convert people to Mormonism. As you are aware, there are many differences between the two cults.

Christians I have met are generally wanting to 'bring people to Christ" and that's about it. They do not police people's lives to see whether they are drinking coffee or booze, whether they attend a temple ceremony, pay tithing, etc etc.

I know there are some really wacked out Christians out there. But they have every right to preach to Mormons even if there had not been the long and torrid history of Mormons preaching their b.s. to the whole world.

I understand that you have family that are still Mormons. But think about how my family felt when Mormon missionaries came peddling their wares at my house. Pretty much the same way you feel about these Christians.

Even IF Mormons had never sent out one missionary ever, I still believe that in America, groups have a right protected by the Constitution to go out and preach what they want to preach.

But given the fact that they have sent out hundreds of thousands of representatives over the last couple of centuries, I think it is HIGH time Mormons get a taste of how the rest of the world feels when somebody comes to their home to teach them the 'truth'. I just don't think Mormons can have it both ways. They get to go out and harrass the hell out of people--but when the shoe is going on the other foot, they simply cannot cry foul.

So as much as I like you and all your work, I do find that I am in a disagreement with your stand on this.

Nevertheless, I find your blog and podcasts absolutely wonderful and am a devoted fan. (I don't think I have ever disagreed with what you have said, so I feel a bit weird to write this--but I want to be sincere with you and not always nod my head and say yes (that last part was from a bad memory of a temple experience)

Bonnie

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:24:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS: I do not think that I made it clear in my post that I have come to see all religions as cults.

I find Eric's brand of Christianity as goofy and offensive as the Mormon cult.

I simply feel that they have the right to come banging on doors just like Mormons, JW's, and all the others trying to sell their brand of religion (aka cult).

and most especially here, in Utah, where I hope that this ridiculous door to door gospel preaching may drive home the point that missionaries are OFFENSIVE to most people.

All of them, Mormons, Christians, JW's, etc.

I hope that this campaign will allow Mormons to have an insight into how people all over the world feel--go away and leave us alone. THAT is what I hope this Christian cult campaign achieves. Anyway, I hope my point is more understandable with this p.s.

I tried watching their video, but could not get in with the name and password.

Bonnie

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:33:00 AM, Anonymous Robert said...

Bonnie said: "Christians I have met are generally wanting to 'bring people to Christ" and that's about it. They do not police people's lives..."

Bonnie, I have to disagree.
I am homosexual, and many Christians in America condemn my very being. They police my life in a very substantial way, wanting me to tell that I cannot follow my feelings, that I cannot love a man, although that is how I feel.
If that is not "police people's lives", I do not know what this term should mean.
Bonnie, I would rather abstain from coffee, alcohol and tobacco, that is so superficial. But those evangelicals, baptists, catholics want to force me into a marriage with someone I neighther find erotic nor could I love a woman.

If you want to see how Christianity can police people's lives, their beliefs, visit Eric Hoffman's forum.
There is a discussion thread in which Eric claims that death penalty is given by God.
So, we are talking about killing people in the name of God. I don't see any difference to blood atonement.
But, hey, that's not policing people's lives.
Or go to www.conservapedia.com, a conservative version to wikipedia.
Until recently, the article on gravity contained the notion that the Law of Gravitation is only a theory, that noone has ever seen gravitron particles, and that God is the true mover, the true origin of gravitation.
Fortunately, they have now deleted this ridiculous stub.
However, the discussion section still states: "I think it's very clear - we need to set up this stub article on gravity, so we can write the TRUE version of Gravity - one that comports with the TRUE facts of JESUS!!! And how GOD makes the universe work. Gravity works because GOD makes it work, because GOD MADE IT."

Bonnie, fanatic Christians invade all aspects of life, from education, the social system, law and justice (of course, the Mosaic Law is the rule of thumb, so kill your disobedient children or anyone who is not.., well jewish!), to your bedroom.
Isn't that "policing people's lives" ???

Robert

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:39:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Bonnie,

Don't worry, as we aren't going to agree on everything, as I disagreed with Ray earlier today and you know that I think the world of you Bonnie. Hopefully you read the comment that I wrote to you a week or two ago, thanking you for all of your support, back to the very beginning of my journey. I meant every word!! There were times I felt like giving up the fight, but your words kept me going and just made me stronger...THANK YOU!!

I am surprised however, that you feel the way you do, especially if you actually read the entire post I wrote, including what these fanatics are instructing their people to do and not do. I'm going to try to help you understand better why I feel what I do, as you know by now that I don't just do things half-assed without a pretty damn good reason.

You also realize that these fanatics I speak of, ARE Eric Hoffman/Aaron Shafovaloff(JesusnotJoseph fame) fanatical Evangelicals, right? In fact, I'm not even sure if Eric is directly involved, or going to pass out the DVDs, but I know that he knows all about it and Aaron, who is much worse than Eric(and Eric's good friend and pal), is right in the middle of this whole thing, with his fingerprints all over it.

Aaron is living in Utah, with his wife and baby, just to be an anti-Mormon missionary and run and organize this type of stuff. To explain to you and everyone else out there, what a despicable character this Aaron is; he was recently invited to participate in a type of "coming together" which included Greg Peterson(according to Eric, I think that was his name), who is a Christian here in Utah and he's trying to bring Christians and Mormons together, on common ground.

Now, after Greg Peterson put himself on the line to get Aaron into this meeting, he stood up and asked Robert Millet whether Mormons believed that God the Father could have been a "practicing homosexual" during his life and then converted. Aaron has discussed this on Eric's site, his own personal site and the Concerned Christian site and other places and even asked if Mormons believe God the Father could have been a "homosexual drag queen."

First off, we know how much these people absolutely hate and condemn all gays(and these comments prove their outright bigotry), making Mormons look far softer in their condemnation of gays(which is still awful). Secondly, to ask if Mormons can believe this or if it's possibly true, is just pure bullshit.

It's an incendiary question, meant to be offensive in every way, because Aaron is a very offensive fellow(and extremely proud of his offensiveness) and no friend of any Mormons. You and I both know Bonnie, that Mormons would never believe and have never taught, that God the Father was a "practicing homosexual." Aaron is now into the Ed Decker category of disgust and lies.

So, would this be a question that most Mormons wouldn't mind, that wouldn't offend them or would it piss them off big time? Is this how these supposed "loving Evangelical Christians" approach Mormons? Would Aaron care if I asked him if his Jesus/God combo was a practicing homosexual, that participated in massive gay orgies? Hell, I could even just say he was married and had heterosexual orgies all the time and he'd be furious, I'm sure. I mean how disrespectful, to ask something so absurd, with no evidence, no proof, just with the intent to offend. What an arrogant ASS!!

These are the same guys that found "The Last Temptation of Christ", and "The Da Vinci Code", to be highly offensive. Eric was appalled at the Da Vinci Code and just the thought that his Jesus was married and had carnal sexual intercourse with a woman. But they can ask Mormons if God the Father was a "homosexual drag queen" or a "practicing homosexual?" HYPOCRITES!!

Now, as much as I can't stand Robert Millet, from the "how to deal with anti-Mormons" video; he handled himself professionally and conducted himself in a way that we would define as Christian, meaning he was calm, actually answered the question and was respectful to this slime-bag Aaron, who didn't deserve any of his respect. If anyone showed themselves to be a "true Christian", it was Robert Millet, not Aaron, the self-proclaimed "flaming Jesus lover" and representative who apparently speaks for God himself.

Now, the most interesting part, is that Greg Peterson, the Christian who got him into the meeting, really let Aaron have it, in front of everyone, for being so rude and offensive. I believe that Greg Peterson felt betrayed by Aaron, since he trusted him and had invited him(he never will again I'm sure), and was highly embarrassed by his offensive behavior, which reflected directly on him and all good Christians, that are trying to create peace.

Greg Peterson, in response to Aaron's question said:

I'm saddened a little bit, by the tone of the question and the direction of the question. I'll be candid back with the questioner, because I think that that very question was designed to illicit a certain reaction.

It is a very provocative thing to suggest God the Father was a homosexual...(interjection)...wait a minute, let me just try, because the questioner needs to know my part, on what he tried to accomplish here, because I think he could have said very much the same thing, he could have asked that same question, without trying to provoke a reaction, but I think that was your intent.

And I think that to some degree, you caused a spirit of conflict and tension and division, because people are probably thinking "oh this is someone that's..you know...not favorable towards Mormonism.

So, if you wanted to identify yourself in that way, you did that and I think you were not helpful to this process, because you were totally invited as a courtesy of us, to give an opportunity to ask a question and you could have asked that very same question with a lot more style and a lot more respect, that's personally how I feel and I just wanted to share that."


All I can say, is I salute your Mr. Peterson, in putting him in his place and condemning the actions of this so called "Christian", who wants nothing more than to stir up trouble, in order to somehow get converts to his fanatical ideology. When a respected Christian in the community, openly condemns Aaron, that's saying something isn't it and reflects on all of these radical Evangelicals, that are using these offensive methods, claiming to do it with love and in the name of God, with no agenda whatsoever. I wonder how many converts they've really gotten?

Eric(and Aaron I'm sure) I know for a fact, strongly condemns this type of "coming together" between Mormons and Christians and actually called out Greg Peterson for doing this, on our Skypecast, which I still need to release.

I'm assuming that Greg Peterson is some type of local Christian leader, much higher(and with a ton more respect in the Mormon and Christian community here in Utah) than Eric or Arron are, because Eric said something like, "he was sent here to Evangelize, not bring Mormons and Christians together", as I'm paraphrasing. Wait, I thought Eric and Aaron loved the Mormon people so much and do everything in LOVE? Is Eric his boss, calling the shots, speaking for God now? Apparently so in his eyes. You'll all be able to hear the exact words yourself, when I release it and form your own opinions.

My point is that this group passing out the DVDs, is best friends with Aaron and has no intention of bringing the 2 sides together, EVER, rather they want to DIVIDE and CONDEMN ALL MORMONS and ALL PEOPLE, INCLUDING YOU BONNIE. I know you're not okay with that, based on your other comments about Eric and his flavor of condemning Christianity.

I think that any "real" Christian that comes along and says "hey, we don't need to hate each other and need to find some common ground to build on", is a great thing and person. These guys however, condemn it, because all they know is burning eternal flames, just waiting to devour all of us, the second we die, if we don't believe exactly what they believe and in their God/Jesus. Good God, even Mormons aren't that harsh, in condemning everyone to literally "burn in hell and flames."

Now Bonnie, I was a Mormon missionary for 2 years as you and most of you out there know and even we would never have employed these dirty tactics, that these fanatical Evangelicals are using. We never went door to door, hanging shit on people's doorknobs, without their permission and then trying to get out of there ASAP, without talking to anyone, as we were instructed to do. This is pure and utter BULLSHIT!! We believed so strongly in what we were teaching and that we were official representatives of Jesus Christ and we WANTED to talk to people...that was why we were there and the entire point of our mission.

Many times we had organized zone projects, where we'd get the whole zone together, or even two zones and just go around passing out books of Mormon, but TO PEOPLE WE ACTUALLY TALKED TO. We weren't just leaving them on doorsteps or hanging them from doorknobs and running, etc. What is that?

If you are going to go to people's houses and you want to give them a DVD, at least have the courage and cojones, to actually speak to them face to face and ASK them if they want the anti-Mormon DVD. Give them a chance to exercise their free agency for hell's sake. These Evangelicals are just being cowards, because they know that most people will flat out reject them and aren't interested.

These are the very same radical Evangelicals, carrying signs around, that go to General Conferences and the Manti Pageant, temple open houses and dedications, regular temples(handing out pamphlets) with their street preaching, shouting down the Mormons and telling them that they will all burn in hell, while throwing Books of Mormon on the ground...as most of you have seen the video.

Now suddenly, the cats got their tongue? It doesn't make sense. I'm guessing that these instructions to do this "hit and run", came from the guy who donated the money and movie or someone outside of their loop and that it wasn't the idea of these folks, because it goes against everything they do, believe and preach.

I want to say and make clear, that I'm no more in favor of the Mormon missionaries going door to door and talking to people face to face and lying to everyone they meet(unknowingly for the most part), then I am these guys doing their "let's hang DVDs on doorknobs and run" bullshit. I don't like either one at all, but at least the Mormon way, people can say no or F-off or just slam the door in their faces.

In case you missed it in my last comment or the post, they specifically said, in their official letter, being handed out with each video:

"we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete."

and

"By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it."

"THE MORMON PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF REFUSING TO ACCEPT IT", is the part that stood out to me the most and probably what made me initially want to share this information that was sent to me, with the world. I believe that people should have the right to choose and that it shouldn't be FORCED upon them. I can't imagine Bonnie that you agree with what they want to do and their dirty, sneaky tactics, do you?

My blogs, podcasts and videos are completely voluntary and here for anyone that wants to view them, read them or listen to them. I don't FORCE my beliefs on anyone here in Mormon Truth, as you know Bonnie.

If they happen to come upon it and hate what they see, they can simply leave ASAP. I get several Emails a week from people that accidentally found my site, looking up Hinckley or Monson, etc. Most of them condemn me harshly of course and tell me I'm going to burn in hell and I respond with "don't read it then" and "click the little X in the upper right hand corner."

They want their freedom for themselves and their church and 52,000 missionaries, all around the world, but they don't want me to have my freedom to express how I feel.

Now, again, I don't want anyone to think that I'm actually defending what Mormon missionaries teach the innocent people or the manipulative, coercive tactics they employ to baptize people; rather just the fact that they are actually talking to people face to face and being straight forward in that regard. I mean when you see the white shirt, name tag, bikes, etc, it's not too hard for most people to know who they are and easily identify them as "Mormon missionaries."

Will these Evangelicals passing out the videos, all be wearing name-tags, identifying who the are and who and what they represent? I don't know, but they should. Of course everyone is free to go around and preach their religion, at least in the US, but I don't have to support it or approve of their clearly deceptive methods.

Then, when you factor in that I KNOW these guys, who they REALLY are, who they represent and that they are boldly, openly, proudly and arrogantly condemning ALL MORMONS and ALL PEOPLE, to burn in hell forever with Satan...well, it wasn't that difficult for me to decide if I should run the story or not. In fact, it was a no brainer for me, as I was just waiting for the right time.

The very fact that these guys have an unidentified mole within their organization is downright funny and eye-opening and tells me that others out there agree with me regarding their tactics and this should be a huge wake-up call for them.

The fact that most other Christian churches in Utah, including the biggest one in Utah County, have rejected them outright and don't want to get involved or have anything to do with this project, tells me that it was right to warn the good Mormon people and that I'm on the right side of this issue.

I support good, honest Christian people and churches, that want to truly love the innocent Mormon people(and that don't want to arrogantly condemn them to burn in hell forever) and not the condemning, fanatical Evangelicals. Why would I ever defend these fanatical Evangelical Christians over the good, normal Christians, that oppose them?

As most of you know and as I've said over and over; my beef is with the Mormon Hierarchy and Mormon Apologists and not the average good Mormon, who is just like the average Christian, trying to be happy and live a good life.

Everyone has the right to feel whatever they feel, believe whatever they believe and I have no doubt in my mind, that this was the right thing to do. There are plenty of innocent Mormons out there, that are perfectly happy, and that aren't ready to hear "the real truth."

When or if they ever are, they will go searching, just like I did, like you did Bonnie, like Ray did, Galatians, Misfit Marie, Demon of Kolob, Hyrum, Mike, Dr. Shades, Deconstructor, etc, etc. We all reached a point in our lives, where we wanted to know the answers to our questions. Also, the fact that these fanatical Evangelicals outright detest and condemn all Mormons to eternal flames, which includes my family and friends and you and your family and friends....was the ultimate reason I had to expose them and this plan.

If I knew of a plan by JWs, SDAs, Mormons or any other cult/religion, that was going to do something similar, I'd do the same exact thing and expose them too, especially if I knew that they really detested Mormons and openly condemned them to burn in hell.

You won't see their blanket condemnations in this video anywhere, but it will come later, for those that choose to reject their message and not follow them like little sheep into heaven and be saved by the grace of their God/Jesus, who thinks they are nothing but worthless piles, even though he loves them tons.

If the producers and creators of this video don't have the same views and beliefs of blanket condemnation, that Eric, Aaron, Calvary Church and so many other Fanatical Evangelicals have; then they are free to distance themselves from these type of people and issue a statement declaring that they want nothing to do with them, that they aren't a part of what they are doing and don't believe what they believe. Hell, I'll even post it right on my blog if they want.

Somehow, I don't think that is going to be happening though, as they are all on the same page. If I'm wrong, then prove it and issue an open statement to the world, condemning these fanatical guys that claim to represent your cause.

By the way Bonnie, the password only worked for a few hours, and they cut it off, but plenty of people have copies of it and maybe you'll be lucky enough to get one delivered to your house, especially if you live near a church or temple. They talk about "secret combinations" in the temple, yet have their own "TOP-SECRET plans" and "secret passwords?"

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Bonnie. I will never agree with or endorse anything that Eric Hoffman and Arron Shafovaloff do or say, when it comes to their fanatical, Evangelical, condemning religion. No good can come from anything they do or say, in my opinion.

I feel like I'm on some pretty strong ground in rejecting this whole project as I've done, especially when so many(anti-Mormons, ex-Mormons, non-Mormons Christians, Mormons and others), have all come together and we all agree that it's wrong.

Honestly Bonnie, did you ever think you'd see the day where die-hard TBMS and FAIR/MAD, agreed with me and were actually linking to my blog? I sure never did, even in my wildest fantasies. It's funny how things work out sometimes, isn't it?

Just because I announced their "TOP-SECRET" plans, doesn't mean they won't do it. In fact, I'm sure they're more determined than ever now, citing Satan as the one inspiring me, the other Christian Churches that won't help them, and all of this chaos, as the devil is trying to disrupt their DVD distribution. The only difference is now, that people are aware of it in advance. They are free to do whatever the hell they please and I'm free to condemn it as you are free to condone it.

Take care Bonnie and I hope this helped you understand better where I'm coming from and why I'm so against this,

Samuel
=======

Also, Robert, I couldn't agree more with your comments. For the most part, mainstream Christianity(James Dobson, etc), Mormons and most other cults out there, all condemn homosexuals. Is this love? What happened to "he who has no sin, cast the first stone" and "judge not that ye be not judged." I guess that doesn't apply when condemning homosexuals, right?

Religion is general is so full of hypocrites, that it disgusts me. Of course there are good people in every religion, but when they support a said church or cult, knowing that they condemn all homosexuals; they are no better than those doing the condemning, even if they don't feel that way themselves.

I left Mormonism for many reasons, with the first one being that I couldn't be part of a RACIST organization that taught blacks were cursed by God and never apologized for nor repudiated said comments. Then I learned all of their other BS history and hate doctrines, and I reexamined their views on homosexuality, along with my own.

I was and still am embarrassed that I'd allowed such an evil, vile cult(run by evil, vile, homophobic assholes), to brainwash me and convince me that all homosexuals were evil and not allowed to live their life the way they felt inside. Who was I to judge them?

Even the Mormon Hierarchy claim they don't have a freaking clue why people are gay, or if they are born that way(Prophets, Seers and Revelators?), yet they openly condemn them and track them down and excommunicate them, if they are sexually active and expect them to live a life of complete celibacy. Yeah, we can see how well that's working out for the Catholics.

If they ever want to re-join the church at some point, after being exed, they have to leave the person they love...yeah, now that's love, isn't it?

I'm a white, straight guy and yet I'm deeply offended by the Mormon teachings of racism and homophobia. Of course, many so called good Mormons have called me an F'n fagot, and F'n pedophile, etc, for my defense of homosexuals and their right to live their live the way the want to.

Do I care? No, I don't, because they are the bigots, not me and they prove it with their vile words, before they tell me to pray and know if the church is true of course. It's unbelievable!!

Thanks for your comments everyone,

Samuel

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:05:00 AM, Anonymous Joshua J. Steimle said...

Once upon a time Joseph Smith was asked how the Mormon religion differed from that of other Christian sects. His response was something along the lines of "They believe that we are going to Hell, whereas we believe that even they can be saved." This whole to-do seems to fall right in line with that statement.

Any Mormon who is active in their church sees these attempts to convince them of the incorrectness of their faith as entertaining and childish. It's like a three-year old trying to convince an auto mechanic that a Hot Wheels car is the real thing. Most Mormons will ignore the DVDs, some who are curious might watch them, but few, if any, will be swayed by them. The only ones who might be swayed will be those who have never truly been converted or who are already in the process of falling away.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:22:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

they must have changed the username and password, cause it wouldn't let me login!

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Our pastor's sermon from a week ago should be forwarded to all these wimpy Christians that don't want to take the heat: http://www.watermark.org/media/media_detail.asp?media_id=511. Please listen to this MP3.

Further, my fiancee is an ex-Mo who's excited to have this DVD distributed to all of her Mo family on the 25th.

BTW, it's Greg Johnson, not Greg Peterson, of Standing Together.

Despite the phrasing of the letter you cited, people still have a chance to throw the DVD in the trash. It's not like the Christian missionaries are coming to each door, busting in and tying people up in front of their TVs to watch this DVD. I think you're a little warped by LDS thinking on this whole matter to see straight.

Finally, about the homosexual issue, you're missing the point of the justice, grace and mercy of God. The apostle says that the law was a schoolmaster to bring individuals to Christ for mercy. The law is that we all suck in one way or another before an all Holy God. When an individual truly repents and allows Christ to do whatever, that individual dies to oneself, and allows God to transform the life in the way He wants. So if an individual persists in murder for example, then it's obvious that this individual never experienced the heart transplant that Christ brings about through genuine faith.

This is quite different from religion like Mormonism, which demands the law as a means to obtain worthiness before God. Like this is even possible! The motivations are totally different.

As such Christians can love murders and homosexuals, and everyone else for that matter. I have friends who live all sorts of lifestyles. I accept them as friends, but I don't accept them as children of God who have experienced His "rebirth."

QuestionMormonism.com

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:15:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey thanks for the information man! Although we don't see eye to eye on everything, you are still a good guy who truly has great intentions at heart.

Thanks for the information, I'll be looking for the DVDs on March 25th and take them off all the doors I can and have a huge bon fire up the Provo Canyon with them :P

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Samuel said:“I think that any "real" Christian that comes along and says "hey, we don't need to hate each other and need to find some common ground to build on", is a great thing and person.”

I couldn’t agree with you more Samuel, but then why do you host this site and use it to degrade, slander, and peddle your own brand of hate? You claim this site is for the “healing” of ex-LDS, but isn’t that directly opposite of what you of what you try to do? You go to great lengths to preach your opposition, and thus you are not in any way looking for common ground.

Samuel also has said, referring to Eric and Aaron (who are people in opposition to his, meaning Samuels own tactics of hate) “No good can come from anything they do or say, in my opinion.”

Although I feel you are quite the word seamstress and know how to weave twist and portray your insults as a do-good service to those who have “escaped the cult” but in reality it’s just a way for you to justify your own misguided and ill-intentioned actions so as to not feel that you are doing wrong in any way. Amen.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Even the Mormon Hierarchy claim they don't have a freaking clue why people are gay, or if they are born that way(Prophets, Seers and Revelators?), yet they openly condemn them and track them down and excommunicate them, if they are sexually active and expect them to live a life of complete celibacy."

needing to clarify this- gay people aren't ex'd for being gay, they get ex'd for breaking the law of chastity, the same as any priesthood holder would be. what members have been tracked down and ex'd? members are supposed to confess their sins by their own free choice, not be forced into confessions.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:22:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

----what members have been tracked down and ex'd?----

Uh, Simon Southerton went inactive in 1998. He was tracked down in 2005 and exed for adultry. Interesting that it coincided with his critical book "Losing A Lost Tribe".

Bond

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:02:00 PM, Anonymous Robert said...

To the anonymous user who posted this:
"needing to clarify this- gay people aren't ex'd for being gay, they get ex'd for breaking the law of chastity, the same as any priesthood holder would be."

Dear anonymous. I have a high respect for the institution of marriage. That is why, I also promote gay-marriage, which means that homosexuals can live up to the same standards with regard to faithfulness, love and care.

The law of chastity means that we should honor these values, being faithful to one's partner, ideally in a marriage.

Now, I have two problems with this:
The first thing is that most Christians, including Mormons, deny homosexuals to marry and live up to these standards. By doing so, homosexuals are discriminated. Any heterosexual person can keep the law of chastity for some years, then (after his mission :-) ) he can marry and enjoy his sexuality.
But homosexuals are condemned to eternal celibacy by being denied marriage to a person of the same sex.

Second problem, and this goes especially to Mormons:
Was Joseph Smith faithful to Emma when he "married" about 30 other wives, having intercourse with them???????
Excuse me, but although I am homosexual, and conservative christians have lots of prejudices about myself and the supposed lifestyle I live,
I can confess that
I have slept with fewer men than Joseph Smith slept with women, even more, I have slept with less than a third of that!

Therefore, I find the fact that Mormons call my lifestyle abhorrent quite laughable. If my lifestyle is unchaste, then what was Joseph Smith's lifestyle like? He was a lustrous, adulterous pedophile and womanizer.
Mormons at first need to stone their prophet thrice before picking up the first stone against me.

Ok,this again makes clear that most Christians, including Mormons, are blatant bigots.
They neighther follow what Jesus has taught, nor do they live up to the standards they set up for others.
Dear Mormon, if you want to know how well celibacy works,
"Ask your local pedophile, attend a catholic church."

Robert.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:21:00 PM, Blogger Aaron Shafovaloff said...

Woops, typos.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, Aaron, you said:
"As a Christian I can say in a heartbeat that it is absolutely impossible that God the Father ever sinned. I'm not offended by the question because I can immediately point you to the glory of an awesome God who forever has been pure and perfect."

I would disagree. Jesus was not without sin, and I can prove it by quoting the bible:
Mat 15:22-26
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

Jesus of Nazareth clearly makes racist statements.
He calls the Canaanites dogs in contrast to the "children of Israel".

Now, if racism is a sin, then Jesus was not without sin, hence he cannot save us from our sins.

Or, as you are a fanatical evangelical, you have to deny that racism is a sin, yeah, even that it is bad.

In any way, Samuel will probably agree with me that racism is a sin, negative, unwholesome, to be abandoned.

Yet, your supposed Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth, was a damn racist!

Gregory

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robert:

You posted: ”I have a high respect for the institution of marriage. That is why, I also promote gay-marriage, which means that homosexuals can live up to the same standards with regard to faithfulness, love and care.”

I feel strongly that homosexuality is regarded as a sin because it is taking the power of pro creation totally out of its context and perverting it in every way. Now you can take that to an extreme even within the bounds of heterosexual marriage and say that couples who use any form of birth control are doing the same, but in the case of homosexuals there is no way in any form that sex with one another is in its correct context. Homosexual sex is the grossest form of selfishness in existence. Sex with a partner is supposed to be a binding selfless action in which a husband and wife come together and become one figuratively, and that is literally fulfilled when that couple bear children. Point being with homosexuality the base root of their sexual drive is to satisfy their own selfish desires. I strongly feel that It is a gross sin and a perversion of God’s laws.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Gregory, I bet if Jesus lived in the USA today he would he call the illegal mexican immigrants dogs....right? What an absured idea that you have. Jesus was not a rascist...ha ha, im just laughing that you would even indicate such a notion.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:21:00 PM, Blogger Misfit Marie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:32:00 PM, Anonymous Gregory said...

Hey Gregory, I bet if Jesus lived in the USA today he would he call the illegal mexican immigrants dogs....right? What an absured idea that you have. Jesus was not a rascist...ha ha, im just laughing that you would even indicate such a notion

It is interesting. I was directly quoting from the bible. You are only talking about your notion of Jesus, the image your church has formed about Jesus, the image some theologians such as Paul have formed about Jesus. I just take the text as it is, and it shows to me that Jesus was racist.

What connotation does the word "dog" have?
Of course, it has a negative connotation.
Lets ask the Holy Bible:

Ex 22:31 "And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs."

The text indicates that the Israelites are clean, the dogs will get the unclean meat!

1Ki 14:10-11:"Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam...Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat;"

The dogs eat the corpses of unholy people.
(The notion of dogs eating unholy men is also found in 1Ki 21:23.24,22:28,2Ki 9:10.

Job 30:1 "But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock."
Setting with the dogs of one's flock, the lowest possible position.

Jesus himself stated (Mt 7:6) "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

So we clearly see the biblical connotation of dogs, the connotation Jesus held when making the statement to the Canaanite woman.
It is clear that he is referring to the Jews with the term "children" (cf. "I am not send but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
Hence, it is also clear that he refers to non-jews, to heathens, when using the term "dogs".

Calling non-jews dogs is from my point of view a racist statement. We see that due to her faith, Jesus changes his mind.

However, in that moment in which he calls non-jews dogs, he is
(1) Calling people names
(2) Derogatory about Non-jews

Thus, he is not free from sin, he is as sinful and filthy as we are.

I am just directly quoting from the bible.
All points you can bring up is to twist the meaning so much in order to rescue your understanding about Jesus which cannot stand up to the facts.
Thus, quoting 10000 other scriptures where Jesus is described as being without sin do not count, when I have a first hand account of Jesus making derogatory racist remarks.

(By the way, he also gets violent when in the temple, contrary to his own command that we should never repay evil with evil; he destroys nature (the "disobedient fig tree", which is also a sin in my eyes.And many evangelical Americans follow in his footsteps; thus Bush has denied to ratify the Kyoto-protocol. After all, has Jesus not shown to us how to treat nature???)

The problem is: Jesus was just a human being. He was not without sin, he was not perfect, he was not without blemish. Many people looked up to him and his teaching. But the notion of perfection was an artificial one pushed onto him by people who identified him with the old testament belief of a Messiah. The first hand accounts of the gospels clearly show that Jesus had mistakes, including those I quoted or mentioned above.

You can of course deny these passages, which contradict the dogmas held by traditional Christianity. I for myself have read the first hand accounts and concluded that Jesus was not without sin. Therefore, his death on the cross may have happened, but it has no impact on our salvation.
The only salvation Jesus brought were his positive teachings. If we try to live up to them, it will be the benefit of all. If we condemn others because they don't believe in obviously wrong dogmas, we do the exact opposite of what Jesus' positive teachings were all about.
Live a moral life; love your neighbor; do not enter the endless circle of tit-for-tat and violence, but forgive.

Gregory

 
At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it interesting "Gregory" that you are also "Robert" and in past comments here on this blog, you have been "True Christian."

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:21:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The trouble is, Jesus himself claimed to be God. So either he was God, or he wasn't. If he wasn't, that either makes him delusional or a liar. If he's a liar, that makes him a jerk responsible for the countless millions of deaths that have followed his claims.
You can't claim that Jesus had "good teachings" that were taken out of context, when he himself claimed to be God. Just my two cents.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:28:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

----The trouble is, Jesus himself claimed to be God. So either he was God, or he wasn't. If he wasn't, that either makes him delusional or a liar. If he's a liar, that makes him a jerk responsible for the countless millions of deaths that have followed his claims.----

Jesus never claimed himself as God. No one knows what the heck Jesus said. The Gospels were written years after his death. I'd bet more than a few words were put into his mouth posthumously.

Bond

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:44:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On the above post, I misspoke. I said:

----Jesus never claimed himself as God----

Please insert we don't know that Jesus claimed himself God.

Bond

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:32:00 AM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Aaron, I had to re-post your comment since you apparently don't know how to put a link correctly into blogger and pushed my sidebar to the bottom of the page. Just wanted you to know why I had to move it. It is exactly as it was, in all its glory.

At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:15:00 PM, Aaron Shafovaloff said...

Given that "Samuel" didn't even get the name of Greg "Peterson", it's an indicator that his story is less the completely trustworthy. Some corrections/clarifications/responses:

- I was not personally invited to the public dialog. The whole public was invited. Is simply showed up in response to that general invitation. So to say that "Greg Peterson put himself on the line to get Aaron into this meeting" is extremely misleading.

- You didn't tell the whole story. I asked two questions, one of which was whether or not a practicing homosexual could here on this earth repent, become a Mormon, and someday be Celestially exalted unto godhood. Anyone is welcome to listen to the entirety of the dialogue here (you'll have to crank your speakers up!):

- It's simply slanderous and misreprentative to say we "absolutely hate and condemn all gays". I think it's clear here that you're overusing hot and abusive rhetoric to caricature and dichotomize us (much like you did when you used the picture of the KJV-only-fundamentalist belligerent street preacher at the top of the blog post to represent "evangelicals").

- You said, "Secondly, to ask if Mormons can believe this or if it's possibly true, is just pure bull****." Why? People have integrated worldview systems that set up certainties and possibilities, that infer that some things are impossible and other things are probable or even absolute, that give meaning and moral value all sorts of things. You gave the impression that we should focus on building "common ground" instead of urgently trying to convert people---wouldn't doing either thing involve a basic understanding of another's worldview? The traditional Christian worldview finds it absolutely, morally outrageous to even be open to the possibility that God the Father was a sinner. My worldview (which I believe corresponds to reality) gives meaning and significance the question I asked.

- You said, "Aaron is a very offensive fellow (and extremely proud of his offensiveness) and no friend of any Mormons." No friend of any Mormons? Well, like getting Greg's name wrong, you got this wrong. Really wrong. I have good Mormon friends. I don't take pride in simply being offensive (there is no inherent value in being offensive for the sake of simply being offensive; other things have to be taken into consideration). I agree that my question was offensive to Mormons (and to those who didn't want to cause a spirit of "conflict and tension"), but I had a bigger purpose in mind: drawing out some pretty outrageous gaps/holes in Mormon theology and showing how they radically differ from traditional Christian rock-solid view of God the Father's sinless past.

- You said, "Mormons would never believe and have never taught, that God the Father was a 'practicing homosexual." This is misleading, because it gives the impression that I was asking about or accusing Mormons of actively teaching that God the Father was a practicing homosexual. My question was of a different nature, specifically over whether Mormon theology allows for such a possibility. Very different. As for Mormons believing that this is possible, I can give you audio clips of two Skype conversations with Mormons from the past two weeks who explicitly affirmed that their view of Lorenzo Snow couplet theology allows for such a possibility. Of course this isn't something that Mormons actively think about, but when pressed to examine the implications of the traditional Mormon system of theology, many Mormons make concessions like this. Millet was smart enough to say that it was his 'personal' view that God the Father was never a practicing homosexual, but he qualified it by saying it wasn't an official church view/position/answer.

- You give the impression that asking an offensive, challenging question is unloving. I find this a deep irony given the track record of your podcast and blog. Also, if love precludes asking touchy, provocative, sticky questions, then love sure is shallow.

- You said:

"Would Aaron care if I asked him if his Jesus/God combo was a practicing homosexual, that participated in massive gay orgies? Hell, I could even just say he was married and had heterosexual orgies all the time and he'd be furious, I'm sure. I mean how disrespectful, to ask something so absurd, with no evidence, no proof, just with the intent to offend."

Maybe you're missing the point. As a Christian I can say in a heartbeat that it is absolutely impossible that God the Father ever sinned. I'm not offended by the question because I can immediately point you to the glory of an awesome God who forever has been pure and perfect. Mormons can't do that if they hold to traditional Lorenzo Snow couplet theology.

You have to understand that for most any Christian, the idea of God having perhaps been a sinner, or the idea of Jesus being married, is much, much, much more offensive than a mere question that asks about it.

- You said I was a self-proclaimed "flaming Jesus lover". Where did I say that? I certainly don't mind being called a Jesus freak, but I've never before used the "flaming Jesus lover" phrase.

- I find it very interesting that you contrast me as one who wants to "get converts" and help people escape the "eternal flames" with Greg as one who wants to bring the two sides (Mormonism and Christianity) together. That you get that impression is simply worth noting.

- You caricature me as believing people will go to hell "if we don't believe exactly what they believe and in their God/Jesus". This gives the false impression that we think a person has to meticulously believe the same, even on peripheral and secondary issues. Again, another example of overusing the power of hot rhetoric (something you ironically condemn me for allegedly doing). But you're missing the point. Christianity is about having a relationship with God, and that relationship is one of worship and is based on a foundation of a basic true knowledge of who God really is. The fundamental nature of God isn't minutiae. People need to have a basic right view of a person in order to have a meaningful relationship with them.

- You caricature the evangelical Christians in the DVD outreach as those who do don't want to talk to people. This is just silly. Especially considering how often we talk to the people of Utah. There is a time and a place for lots of things, and sometimes it simply isn't strategic to take the same to knock on each door. We are extremely interested in follow-up and personal interaction and conversations, and I think you would go bonkers if you had to spend a week with me listening to all the personal conversations I have with Mormons. It's a big part of what I do, and it's a huge part of what most every "countercultist" does or what actively evangelistic churches do. But that's not all we do, and we don't feel like we are bound or enslaved by the limiting restrictions of the thinking that all evangelism has to be exclusively relational.

- You said, "Give them a chance to exercise their free agency for **** sake." Later you said, "Everyone has the right to feel whatever they feel, believe whatever they believe". I think it's worth noting that there are different kinds and degrees and types of agency or freedom (i.e. political freedom to vote vs. freedom to move across states vs. freedom of the mind to will or think something vs. freedom to physically extends one's arm after mentally willing to do so). As widely different kinds of freedom can be conflated into simple terms, so can different kinds of "force" or coercion or restriction. And of course such conflation is ripe for hot, over-the-top rhetoric, the kind you have employed. The DVD distribution doesn't take away anyone's freedom to willingly throw the DVD away. Neither do the local ward's distributed literature about chuch activities and events. One of the great freedoms Americans have is to distribute literature/media to someone's doorstep in a residential neighborhood. Would you like to take that freedom away?

I'd be glad to have a recorded Skype conversation with you, "Samuel". If you're willing to publicly chat, then feel free to send a message to "aaronshaf".

Grace and peace in Christ, who justifies the ungodly by faith (Romans 4:4-8),

Aaron


At Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:21:00 PM, Aaron Shafovaloff said...

Woops, typos.
======

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:03:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Hi ,

I thought I had pressure and threats but definately not in comparison to SamuelTheUtahnite, although I've had one or two emails from 'Psycho Mormons' lol


My only problem is watching Mormons shuffle uncomfortably when I prefer to talk about A Head In A Hat and a Peep Stone. Well a member of the Bishopric told me ( with boldness ) he would like to see me commit myself ? lol especially after I told him how the plates were really translated . He said we have 11 witnesses who testified they saw the plates , what more do I want in evidence ?

When I told him James Strang had a lots of witnesses to his plates too , he went quiet . Then I mentioned non of the witnesses saw the plates in reality but with some kind of eyes of understanding or spiritual vision , the same vision which sees inside mountains ! it gets loopy ! lol

Then also the fact that all the living witnesses joined Strang's outfit . It really does become credible then doesn't it ! lol

I think he forgets I'm just an investigator and that I'm not under the LDS mind control. I've realised how easy it is to challenge the Mormons actually .Truth is a powerful thing and having Mormon Super Scholar Richard Lyman Bushman backing me up gives me amazing credibility ! They just can't go against Bushman and I'm left with the same answer each time , Humble myself , pay tithe , ignore everything except for reading Ensign and the standard works and church Apostles talks ( except for Russel Nelson's Head in a hat one that is ) lol well if ignored reality and only read Ensigns then I'd join wouldn't I ! lol

I don't feel like hearing the same nonsense every week In Elders Qourom .... Priesthood Power- Correct Priesthood Authority - The Priesthood- The restored Gospel and restored Priesthood Authority- The correct Priesthood to act in Gods name - Priesthood blah blah - the same priesthood which organised the universe and parted the red sea and raised the dead ? Are they serious ?? These lot couldn't organise a successful Reachout Evening , never mind a planet or part any waters. They struggle with healing common colds so I wouldn't recommend them for a resurrection .

I've concluded its a fraud , the people are genuine or at least most of them .

Joseph Smith working for God ? NO NO NO .

I can't face the creator ( whoever that may be ) accepting Joseph Smith's polygamy and every thing else he pulled came from God . My conscience forbids it .

I had JW's knock on my door today .They told me they had the Holy Spirit with them ?? I said How is that ? so do the Mormons ? They replied .. hmm I see what you mean !

I think we need to see the funny side sometimes or we will go nuts and get angry unnecessarily and who needs it ! lol

Elder Joseph

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:06:00 PM, Blogger Elder Joseph said...

Ps
all the living witnesses except Oliver Cowdery joined the Strangites . Don't want mormons ganging up on me ! lol

E J

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:55:00 PM, Anonymous madampince said...

Samuel --

Their words remind me of Westboro Baptist Church, the outfit headed by Fred Phelps that blames everything on gays & lesbians.

Thanks for publishing the truth about ALL religions. This reformed Mormon loves you!

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:00:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

is hanging a dvd on a door is forcing them to open it, load it in the player and then watch it beginning to end. No. Anyone who recieves it is free to throw it away at anytime.

we all get unwanted phone calls, emails, mail etc wanting to convince us about this or that--its part of life.

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But does that make it right?

 
At Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:49:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Update:

There are about 4 MAD threads going concerning this movie issue (comprising probably 500+ posts). Good job stirring up the LDS Samuel.

That Aaron guy cut and run from the MAD debate after a few pointed questions from the LDS posters about his behavior.

Bond

 
At Friday, March 16, 2007 4:02:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

re: but does that make it right (to hang the dvd on the door). ITs not a crime--anymore than recieving the publdihers clearinghouse sweeptakes letter un-asked for in your mail. For heavens sake--lds missionaries knock on doors and they would like to convince you that they have something better than you do and cnvince you to take it--so dont complain when others answer back about the content of what you have been offering, at YOUR doors.

 
At Monday, March 26, 2007 10:39:00 PM, Blogger Mike said...

There's a comprehensive response to the video from FAIR at

http://www.JosephSmithDVD.org

 
At Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:54:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well.. I had a 4 year affair with a 5'10" Redheaded Mormon woman at Azusa 1st Ward... This is a cult and I almost bought into it.

 

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