I've already covered this issue pretty extensively on my Mormon Truth Uncensored Podcast #3 and you can all go read what I wrote and listen to the podcast if you want to. But here is the actual video of Molly "Mormon" Jolley and her ridiculous, insensitive comments.
I wanted everyone to actually see the expression on her face and the glazed over eyes, including the smile(as shown above) before she began spewing her BS.
The quotes that stand out to me, from both Brock Jolley, the mission President and his daughter, Molly Jolley, are the following:
Brock Jolley:
"The two 'sisters' voluntarily gave up 18 months of their lives to make a difference in this country. Now, they're getting the best care money can buy. When this is over, THEY PLAN TO REMAIN IN SOUTH AFRICA AND COMPLETE THEIR MISSIONARY WORK."
So, Mr. Danny Brock, pathetic mission president, of Bountiful Utah, wanted to make sure that everyone knew that these two sisters, despite being gang raped, most likely at gun and knife point, for as long as 2 hours, robbed and one of them shot in the stomach; "plan to remain in South Africa and complete their missionary work." Are you serious Danny?
Any plans for psychological counseling and physically healing, or just back to the same streets where they got raped, ASAP, to search for more future tithe payers?!! "When this is over?" What does that mean exactly? Physically? Mentally? Or, just when they are released from the hospital...no excuses right? Don't drag the mission down girls, because like Hinckley says, "if you were living the rules, you'll never get sick or have bad things happen."
I mean hey, they work directly for Jesus Christ and if they have enough faith in Jesus, they will be given the strength to hit those same streets quickly, as if nothing even happened, right? It's just pathetic!!
He also wanted to reassure everyone how safe the area was, and what a safe time of day it was, in order to cover his own ass, along with the Mormon Church Hierarchy's collective ass, when he said the following:
"They were walking alongside a busy road (the old Harding highway), which they knew well. Moreover, it was one of the busiest times of the day with cars whizzing past. Safer than that, you would not get."
Yeah, well apparently not safe enough, because, if you didn't notice BROCK, THEY WERE "GANG RAPED AT KNIFE POINT FOR 2 HOURS OR LONGER" AND "ONE OF THEM WAS SHOT." Hello, anything going on in that TBM, BRAINWASHED brain of yours?
Also, his guarantee and that of his daughter, about how safe the area was, certainly doesn't jive with any reality or truth whatsoever and the stats that they explained in this news story, about the horrific crime rates in South Africa, which even includes Mormon missionaries getting robbed and car-jacked every single month. Do we ever hear about those incidents?
The truth is, the Mormon Hierarchy doesn't give a rat's ass how safe or unsafe an area is, because they don't care if you are raped, robbed or even killed.
After all, you work for Jesus, for "the one and only true church", so it's all good. In fact, it should be an honor to be raped for the Mormon church and Jesus, right?
Oh yeah, and it's actually a bad thing that these 2 sisters lived isn't it, at least according to Mormon "better off dead" teachings by the former Prophet Spencer W. Kimball? My statements are in quotes.
Kimball said:
"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED.(NICE GUILT TRIP THERE!!) Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED(can you believe that shit? SHE WAS RAPED DUMBASS!!) and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position.(MORE FAVORABLE?) There is no condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to LIVE HAVING LOST IT WITHOUT A STRUGGLE."(The Miracle of Forgiveness)
So there you go!! I sure hope these sisters struggled a lot and didn't "voluntarily participate." But the fact they lived, proves to Kimball, that they didn't struggle hard enough, because THEY DIDN'T DIE!! What a sick, twisted SOB!!
Here are some other statements on the Mormon teaching of "Better off dead", than immoral.
"I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine-all editions, page 124)
Prophet David O. McKay is quoted in Kimball's book as follows:
" . . . Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue EVEN IF YOU LOSE YOUR LIVES."
Prophet Heber J. Grant is also quoted in Kimball's book:
"...There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather BURY a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity."
Now, I'd like to end this post with two quotes; the first one is from Molly Jolley, and then the 2nd one is just to remind everyone that Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard and the Mormon Hierarchy, don't give a shit if you die on your mission:
"Bad things happen everywhere and it's unfortunate. My heart goes out to those poor sisters and their families BUT THE WORK MUST GO ON."(Molly Jolley)
"This work will continue to go forward regardless of what happens, regardless of what the future may hold. If there are other missionaries THAT ARE HURT or other missionaries THAT ARE KILLED, IT WILL NOT STOP THIS WORK." (Apostle M. Russel Ballard)
Ballard Not Caring If More Missionaries Die-MP3 For Download
Here is the link to my "Better OFF Dead" podcast and the link to a blog I wrote here in "Mormon Truth", regarding the Mormon Hierarchy's despicable "Better Off Dead" Teachings.
I welcome any response, specifically from Molly Jolley, Brock Jolley, his wife, their family, friends or hey, how about the kind hearted, sensitive and loving M. Russell Ballard, who didn't even care if those Sisters died in the first place, because "it won't stop this work." Bring it on guys...BRING IT ON!!
What a damn cult!!
Samuel the Utahnite
The sad thing is Demon, that their families(and the Sisters) are probably brainwashed too and in the back of their minds, extremely worried about whether their daughters will "honorably" finish their missions. It's insane!!
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that they are concerned about the stigma, within the Mormon community, if by chance their daughters don't finish honorably, their complete time, regardless of the situation and what happened. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I doubt it, unless by some chance their families aren't die-hard TBMS or aren't Mormon at all.
The Mormon society as a whole is extremely judgmental and unforgiving, for anyone that is even perceived to be a sinner, or not be in line or doing what they are supposed to, like completing their mission for Jesus Christ.
Also, many of them know of President Kimball's teachings about "how they should die fighting off their rapists" and so that doesn't help the situation.
It's like when Morgan W. Young, from Bountiful, Utah was shot and killed in Virginia last year; the Mom actually said: "I'm proud he died with his boots on." That was quoted in the Deseret News.
In the Davis County Clipper, they said the Youngs "have two other children preparing to serve a mission within the next year and a half."
and:
“They are more determined than ever to serve. Now they have a legacy to live up to,” said Kathy, mother to Morgan.
So, the Mother was "proud that Morgan died with his boots on", for the Mormon church and now, his other siblings, "are more determined than ever to serve" and "have a legacy to live up to."
They also talked about how they are sure that he is "doing missionary work on the other side", which in of itself is really a puzzling teaching and belief within Mormonism, just to give everyone the warm and fuzzies and explain away the pointless death of their loved one. Why would God need someone to die on earth, in order to go to the spirit world and teach other dead people?
Here is a blog I wrote on Morgan W. Young's death, with the links to the above stories:
So, you see, many times, due to the brainwashing and lifelong indoctrination of the Parents and the Parent's other children, it just motivates them even more and inspires them when one of their children are killed on a mission.
All I'm saying, is that I'm not gonna hold my breath, that the Parents of these Sisters, were able to see more clearly how screwed up the church was, and that their daughters were not protected or looked out for, by Mr. Brock or the Mormon God and more than likely; they hope that they'll finish their missions honorably and wow, what a testimony that will make, right? If they just have faith, anything is possible.
I can only hope that the Sisters will be okay and heal in every way and be able to live some sort of a normal life and existence, after such a horrific experience.
Gee, I wonder if Jesus' "one true church", will pay their counseling and psychiatric bills for life, that is if they even get such help.
If they do pay, it will only be temporarily, I'm sure, and they'll go to some Mormon counselor, picked by the local Bishop, who will tell them to heal through Jesus, repent of their sins, etc. Every bit of advice they receive, will be right down the line of Mormon doctrine and beliefs, when they need real help from someone that isn't another Mormon cult member.
Meanwhile, Mr. Brock and his Molly Mormon Daughter are only concerned about 3 things; that they will finish their mission, the work must go on and how safe the area is. So much for the well-being of those poor Sisters, right? Very, very sad indeed!!
Best wishes,
Samuel
I am a mother of two young women. If either of them were beaten and raped while abroad on a mission, I would have been on the next plane to that place to take care of my girls and bring them home.
ReplyDeleteIt sickens me to know that there will be other young people who suffer and die for nothing.
Jesus isn't there to save missionaries. Those stupid garments aren't protection for one effing thing. If they were, no missionary would get hurt or die.
Those GD old farts up at the LDS Inc don't give a damn aabout anything except money, converts, converts who will pay money, power, money and power.
Poor girls. I feel sorry for the pain they went through. I feel sorry that they belong to a cult for which their hurt and pain really means nothing--not a goddamn thing.
friggin cult!
Two right!!!
ReplyDeleteYour comments show just how fanatical some people and most church leaders are.
The church and preaching is more important than the well being of two, probably, nice and sweet young women!(as most sister missionaries are).
And there's that underlining suspicion that the sisters did something wrong since they ended up alive after being gange raped. And how insensitive Hinkley's & Kimball's comments are, the two loved 'prophets' of the church. Note that Hinkley even called to congratulate the return of Elizabeth Smart, but I bet he's being quiet since then, after details of the case came out.
Your right though, the 'prophet' will blame the victim instead of seeing that they are survivors and protectors of others, like Elizabeth who survived and probably protected her little sister from being hurt by the crazy guy.
Charlie
Sydney, Australia
I am so glad that there are people out there that feel the same way that I do about the mormon religion. It is one of the most disgusting religions that I have ever come across. I am so glad to have found this site. Anyways I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy reading your blogs. Keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteJaimie
Orem, Utah
Hey Jaimie, Welcome and I'm glad that you found "Mormon Truth" and have enjoyed this site since finding it. There will be a lot to come in 2007, so stay tuned and spread the word.
ReplyDeleteI was just wondering what your story is, if you were Mormon,or moved into the state of Utah, and what took you to Orem, Utah, which, with Provo right next door, is the most Mormon place in the entire world.
It's bad enough where I live in Utah, but if I lived in Orem or Provo now(which I once did when I went to BYU)....wow, that would be pure hell.
Anyway, feel free to tell us more about yourself, if you want to. Thanks for your support and I hope to hear more from you in the future.
Also, check out my 25 podcasts(with several to come in the next week) and 33 videos on YouTube. I have links to both in "my favorite links" on the main page of this blog.
Take care Jaimie and feel free to Email me if you have any other questions or comments,
Samuel
Kolob, Kolob(LOL!!)
Wow. Reading some of these posts are really making me laugh. What baffles me is that although several of you acknowledge that this was and is a horrible thing, you still manage to place blame and point fingers at the LDS Church and its leaders. That cracks me up. You may find this impossible to believe, but the leaders actually do give a rats ass if missionaries under their supervision get raped and stabbed. Do you forget that the girls choose to be there and can leave at any time? I went on a mission and so did you Samuel. And you cant tell me that your mission president didn't care for you. Although there are hard times and challenges on every mission, its still satisfying to know that you were there being selfless and making a difference to the people who were grateful that you were there. I don't understand why you all come together to bash "Mormons" here. It really is just unfortunate that people like you gain a sense of accomplishment by trashing people who are choosing of their own free will to do good and who strive to have no ill will towards others. Many of you posting here really ought to take a lesson from them. You wouldnt be bashing those missionaries parents and leaders if they were just Green Peace hippys there on a service mission would you? Point being, you just look for ways to bash, and society doesn't need more negativity in the world, we need more do-gooders. Perhaps you all could all take a lesson from the Sisters.
ReplyDeletelast_daysaynt,
ReplyDeleteOn the surface, a mission is a choice. No, no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to go, BUT you are indoctrinated for almost 20 years that it is what god wants you to do. And if you don't go, you will disappoint god and will be held responsible for the "sins" of everyone who you would have converted if you had gone. So yes, it is a personal choice, but the social pressure to go is overwhelming, and you can't deny that.
And we all know that any young man who does not go is looked down upon as being unworthy. The girls are taught that they should only date and marry returned missionaries, so if a guy doesn't go, that basically places him outside of the loop forever.
And for the record, Samuel is not "trashing" the missionaries themselves. We all have no doubt that they are serving (under the social pressure) but also with nothing but good intentions. They are good people who are simply trying to do what they feel is right.
If the church leaders do "give a rats ass" about the missionaries safety, why in the world are two female missionaries sent to the rape capital of the world? Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened much more often there. And I am sure that most mission presidents do care about the safety of the missionaries in their care. But when you get to the GA level of authority, the death of a missionary here and there is minor loss. "The work must go on." This implies that it doesn't matter who dies or gets raped; It implies that no matter what happens, missionaries will continue to be put in harms way until "the great Jehovah says the work is done".
There is so much more going on here than a few angry ex-Mormons looking for someone to "bash". Back in our TBM days, we would have written a response very similar to yours. But when it suddenly becomes crystal clear that the church is not what it claims to be (and in fact is a huge lie and a total fraud) then, yes, some of us are angry that this organization has deliberately lied to us and brainwashed us ever since we were born. We feel (and are justified in feeling) completely betrayed by the very organization that we held so dear. If or when you ever get to that point, only then will you understand why we are so passionate in what we say here.
If you want a small idea of what it is like, I recommend two movies: "The Matrix" and "The Island". Both are perfect examples of living in a world that is completely false. Both tell a story of someone living in this false world and finding their way out into the real world. Did you applaud Neo when he discovered he was "the one" and swore to expose the lie to all humanity? If you applaud Neo and condemn us for doing the same exact thing, then you are a hypocrite.
And what did Morpheus say? That some minds are not ready to be set free. This is probably you. But for those who are ready to be set free, although the cost is high, there is nothing more liberating and exhilarating.
The reason you don't understand why we come together to "bash" Mormons* is because you are still part of that system. Your mind has not been set free. To you it is the true kingdom of god and we are the agents of satan who will do anything to destroy it. Think whatever you want (or more accurately, what the church tells you to think). It doesn't matter. Once your eyes are opened there is no going back, just like Neo.
* We are not bashing Mormons. We love Mormons. They are our friends and family. We are "bashing" the religion and its destructive influence. We are "bashing" the leaders who continue to spread their "truth" and collect tithing money even though there is sufficient evidence that shows the church is completely false.
At least here at Mormon Truth everyone is free to come in and comment and say whatever the hell they want to without facing disciplinary action.
I don't know how much you know about the issues with the church, last_daysaynt, but if you aren't aware of some of them, you will either be blown away OR go live in the land of cog dis and mental gymnastics.
By the way, your page and introduction at: truthmormon.blogspot.com is a pretty good plagerism of Samuel's page (those of us who are a little informed about Mormon Truth are aware that plagerism is something Mormon leaders have been doing since their religion began). So by all means, please continue to follow your infallable leaders and plagerize away!
Let us know if you want any more information about the lesser known aspects of Mormonism.
And about us "bashing" those who are only trying to do good, I don't know what planet you're from. Has not Samuel stated several times that he hopes the sister missionaries recover and get the help they need? Show me one place where Samuel has ever attacked do-gooding Mormons (in fact, he has defended them on several occasions from other Christians who throw blanket condemnations. If you think Samuel is attacking missionaries and regular Mormon people, then you need to read it again. Samuel is attacking the LEADERS who hide the truth, change their history, and fly around in private jets and buy shopping malls with your tithing dollars (Jesus didn't have a jet, fancy car, huge office buildings, malls, hotels, penthouses, etc. but his only true prophets and representatives sure do!)
Anyway, last_daysaynt, you're welcome to continue commenting here. But just keep in mind that if you come here and pull a "holier than thou" we will respond accordingly. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, then that is what we will do.
Ray:
ReplyDeleteAs for the social pressures to serve, I think that is a load of crap, and I agree that there is pressure from individuals, but it is not taught by the church to pressure individuals into serving. It has been stated that "every able worthy young man should serve a full-time mission" and I see nothing wrong with that. I think every able young man should also have to do two years in this country's military as well. I was a perfect example of one who wanted nothing to do with the church for a long time until I tryed it out for myself. I didn't cave to what i felt my parents wanted me to do, I simply took a step back and evaluated my own empty life and thugh about what kind of lifestyle I wanted for my future. Sure there were jackasses who when i went back to church and tryed to remain under the radar made me feel uncomfortable by saying stupid (but well meaning) comments, but the reality of it is, it was my choice and weather someone chooses to recognize and let "pressure" affect them, is ultimately up to that individual. I am sure your parents always wanted you to go to college and "indoctrinated" you with the concept of going to college from the time you were small, but do you resent them for it? NO of course not, why? Because they only want for you what has brought them the most joy. So it is not "The Church" and its leaders with the problem, but its the hypersensitive emotionally weak individuals who choose to let "pressure" affect them who you ought to be bashing.
My cousin chose not to go on a mission, and I witnessed firsthand when people began to think that he was unworty. I don't deny that many think that of those who chose not to serve. But in 99 out of 100 cases when able young men dont go it is because of unworthiness. Many wont admit it because they are embarassed so they just say they dont want to go, but in the cases where they are worthy and just dont go I dont think people hold it against them and cast them out of the circle forever. My cousin got married just recently and nobody (not even his wife, or his wifes family) hold the fact that he didn't serve against him because he is a good person and he treats her well. So again, the falt lies not with the church or its leaders, but with the imperfect people who impose a feeling of disapproval on those who don't live up to the holier than thou standards by doing all of the outward performances for others to see.
Even for those who do serve out of social pressure, I don't think that is all bad either because it develops their ability to get out on their own and learn how to function as part of an organization, its just like the military, except without the yelling and pushups and there is nothing wrng with implementing structure in a young mans life, especially in a situation where he can be doing good.
As for sisters getting sent to the rape capital, they dont have to be there, they can come home at any time or be transferred if they feel unsafe. Nobody is to blame for that except for the predators who did the deeds. What those of your mindset fail to see or realize is that we look at life not just in terms of what happens here on this earth, but in the larger scheme of things. I had a clsoe friend die while on his mission, and guess what.....THE WORK GOES ON! There is much more to life than just our years here on this earth, the time here is nothing compared to eternity. SHit happens, but ultimately everyone will reap what they sow.
I understand that you are passionate about your feelings, and I am as well, but the one point that it seems all of you anti-whatevers dont get is that people aren't perfect, and never will be, that is why the church exists. The system is perfect and it is there to help everyone. People dont go to the hospital when they feel fine, they go because something is wrong with them and the recognize that. Similarly people go to church because they recognize that we are far from perfect and we need help. Christ is the perfect dctor and he is the only one with the prescribed cure for us all. It doesn't matter if you are knocking LDS, Baptist, Muslim, or Jew, what bugs me is when people ger a bad taste in their mouth and instead of just finding a different way to get to Christ they feel they need to rip on others beliefs.
I do appreciate your honest response. I have not yet gone through Samuels page and disected it yet, and therefore if I implied that he was bashing on the sisters I apologize, I know he wasn't doing that but I know that he and many like him host these blog sites to outwardly ridicule leaders or anyone in prominent positions and jump at any opportunity to expose or twist every single thing in their life to make it appear as if they are hiding truths and trying to build up their own egos. In some cases that has been true because there have been GA's excommunicated and released from their positions for doing so. But it is the people who are imperfect, not the system. As for anything referring to GA's using tithing money, that is a load of crap. The private jet that Hinkley uses is one of two personal leer jets owned by one of the general authorties that he has dedicated (of his own choice and at his own expense) for the sole use of President Hinkley and any other general authority. All tithes are accounted for and used as the church sees fit to contribute to disaster relief, other charity, constructions of church properties, or for contributing to a cultural cause which they see fit (such as downtown SLC). None of those things are the personal property of an individual. Full-time GA'a have expenses just like people in other companies working full-time, and they do use tithes to pay for living expenses. But the majority of them use their own funds for all those expenses as well. It is in rare cases where men who were not successful in the business world and self sufficient have been called as full time GA's.
I am not trying to be holier than thou, I simply feel that I am stating it just as I see it, like Samuel does. Bear in mind I have seen both sides of the fence and have lived on both sides. It is pain as day to me which lifestyle I am much more happy with. By their fruits ye shall know them. I havent exactly ever talked to an anti that is totally happy with their life, in fact quite the opposite, they always seem to be placing blame and not accepting responsibiltiy for their own actons or choices which have led them to become very unhappy and full of hate, thus driving and motivating them to spread the hate like a cancerous disease, much like this site of samuels. If you all want happiness, dont bash, just go and do some good in the world. Im sure God will reward you for spending your energies on that instead of consuming your time feeding on this garbage.
last_daysaynt,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your very good reply. It quite amazes me that you can't see the social pressure the church puts on men to serve a mission. But you're entitled to your opinion.
Many boys leave on a mission and return as men, no doubt about it. A mission is definitely a unique experience. Having experience both a mission and military myself, it is difficult to say which was harder.
You commented that you have not spoken with very many ex-mormons who are truly happy. Sorry, but you must not have spoken to many ex-mormons at all then. I am happier in my personal and family life ever since the day I decided to quit going to church. My wife and I fight much less than we did before. In fact, one of the main factors in my initial inactivity was because I was miserable and was tired of going to church and pretending that life was wonderful in my mormon life.
Mormons will claim they are happy but it is like the emperors new clothes. They say they are happy because it is what they are supposed to say. Now mind you, this is not 100% the case and I am sure there are many Mormons who truly are happy. There are people from all walks of life who are happy. This tells me that happiness comes from the individual and not the religion. I can honestly tell you, will 100% sincerity, that I have never been happier and more self confident than I have in the last two years. A TBM would try to tell me that I'm not really happy, but that satan has given me a false sense of security. Whatever! I can't tell you if you're happy or not and no one can tell me if I'm happy or not.
If Hinckley flies around in a donated jet, then I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
I found my freedom in discovering that I am a good person. I don't need to live in fear of a jealous god who watches everything I do and can't wait to deal out my punishment. I am not a sinner nor an evil being simply because I am alive. If god is perfect, and god made me, then I am perfect.
Leaving Mormonism is all about honesty. It takes a very honest person to say, I don't believe that anymore.
My sister just had a baby and when the baby was blessed, I did not stand in the circle out of pure choice. I have not officially had my name removed from the church records and I have not been declaired unworthy to participate in any "priesthood" action. Of course, being the one who left, everyone in the family is curious as to what sin I committed.
There is a difference to "both sides of the fence" which you have experienced. As far as I can tell, one side of your fence is activity in the church and the other side is a rebellion or something. Believe me, a rebellion (where you still believe in the church but just want to rebel) is totally different than discovering the truth about the church and walking away. To this day, I would still pass a temple recommend interview with the following exceptions: I no longer sustain the leaders, I no longer believe in Jesus, and I no longer pay tithing. I have not cheated on my wife; I have not become a drunk; I still despise the idea of smoking. So as you can hopefully see, leaving the church because of your discoveries it TOTALLY different than most TBM's are lead to believe.
You probably think that we all get together every week and drink our asses off, chase women, and get high. This might be the case in a few instances, but for the most part, ex-mormons continue to live happy and fulfilling lives. This is a stereotype that needs to be corrected. Most people who leave the church do not become drunken losers who are full of hate and only wish to cause contention.
I mean, we are here at Mormon Truth discussion our various thoughts and feelings amongst ourselves. We are not out in the public handing out fliers, and descrating garments and BoM's. We are here amongst ourselves to give each other support and encouragement since we get little or none of it from our TBM family and friends.
We debate the occasional TBM who finds his way here and stirs things up. But we are here in our little "community" just sharing thoughts and ideas. And then someone pokes their head in and accuses us of being evil, hateful, and angry. So you are bashing on us just as much OR MORE than we bash on mormons. The real lies are told in LDS churches when members are told how evil and angry we are. Of course, it is all a scare tactic to keep people in the church.
Let me share the issue with the church that shattered my testimony because it shows so clearly that Joseph Smith was a liar. I don't know how familiar you are with these issues (you certainly won't hear any of them in church). The issue I am referring to is the Book of Abraham. In 1967 the original manuscript from which Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham was found. It was confirmed by both church leaders and historians that it is indeed the original papyrus scroll. In the days of Joseph Smith, no one could read or translate Egyptian, and so no one could challenge Joseph and test his claims. Now, we do have the ability to translate Egyptian and when Egyptologists examined the documents, they found that the actual content of the scrolls did not even remotely match the Book of Abraham. In fact, the scroll was written some 2000 years after the time of Abraham. Joseph Smith had claimed that the scrolls were literally written by the hand of Abraham. Both LDS and non-LDS scholars found the same thing: that Joseph Smith's "translation" was completely wrong.
Of course, the church has some pathetic explanations as to why this is the case, but the bottom line is that Joseph Smith has been caught producing false scriptures. In other words, LYING! If he lied about the Book of Abraham, what else did he lie about? If you care to do any honest research, you will discover that this is just the tip. Joseph Smith produced many false prophesies as well as married girls as young as 14 AND even married himself to women who were ALREADY MARRIED TO LIVING MEN while they were away serving missions for him! There is proof of this on the churches very own family history web site. I don't know the exact address, but I'm sure that Samuel does.
I've only begun to scratch the surface with all the problems facing Mormonism. Before you just come in here and accuse us all of being hateful, blaming, evil, anti's, maybe you should take an honest look at what we have to say.
How about the quotes, in the Journal of Discourses, from many early prominant church leaders which seems to clearly indicate that they had no idea that Joseph had claimed to see god. In fact, the quotes show that they believed and angel had told Joseph that none of the churches were true and that he was to join none of them. Joseph came up the the "God" story later when many of the early saints started losing their faith in him. Why do you think that so many apostles and BoM witnesses left the church? Because Joseph was doinking their wives and changing the scriptures to give himself more power. Here are those quotes:
"The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong..." Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)
"The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world" Wilford Woodruff - Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)
"Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Orson Hyde - Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)
"...he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels , the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared , Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong" George A. Smith - Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)
"[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " George A. Smith - Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)
"None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right." John Taylor - Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)
"But suppose that the statement that Joseph Smith says the angel made to him should be true-that there was no church upon the face of the earth whom God recognized as His, and whose acts He acknowledged-suppose this were true..." George Q. Cannon - Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, pg. 135 (1889)
"He accordingly went out into the woods and falling upon his knees called for a long time upon the Lord for wisdom and knowledge. While engaged in prayer a light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right..." William Smith On Mormonism , By William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother. pg. 5 (1883)
"The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches, and he promised that the true and everlasting Gospel should be revealed to him at some future time. Joseph continues: 'Many other things did he (the angel) say unto me which I cannot write at this time' " Church Historical Record, Vol. 7, January, 1888 (It should be noted here that in this quote the first reference to "the angel" was later changed to "the Holy Being" and the second reference to "the angel" was changed to "the Christ")
"...I received the first visitation of Angels when I was about 14 years old..." Joseph Smith, Nov. 1835 - Personal writings of Joseph Smith, pg. 84 (It should be noted that this entry has been changed in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, pg. 312. It now reads "my first vision" instead of "visitation of Angels")
"Do we believe that the Lord sent his messengers to Joseph Smith, and commanded him to refrain from joining any Christian church, and to refrain from the wickedness he saw in the churches, and finally delivered to him a message informing him that the Lord was about to establish his kingdom on the earth..." Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, pg. 239
Isn't it odd that over 40 years after Joseph's alleged "first vision", Church leaders like Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, George A. Smith, George Q. Cannon, and William Smith were all unaware of Joseph Smith's claim of seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ? This is because the "first vision" story was a consistently changing story that was virtually unknown to early Latter-day Saints. Most importantly, even the heavenly visitor(s) that he saw were constantly changing. Depending on the account Joseph gave, it was either a spirit, an angel, two angels, many angels, Jesus, and finally, the Father and the Son.
last_daysaynt, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, as these quotes come from church approved sources and yet very cleary show a different story than what is taught. How do you explain this?
This is why we left. It wasn't because we are angry and want to blame someone else for our problems. It is because we saw the facts and evidence and could clearly see that the church is not what it claims to be.
Missionaries are not free to leave at any time!You are watched 24 hours a day by your companion. If a missionary want to leave the MP will use every trick in book to keep him in the mission. If a missionary runs away there is a network of Mormon leaders to stop him at any airport or bus station necessary Mission leaders have even trespassed the secure zones in airports to keep a missionary from escaping. In some rare cases the MP has even had the local police stop the runaway missionary. If a missionary makes it all the way to his hometown local leaders or parents will put on the first plane or bus back to the mission. This is not free to leave at any time !!!!
ReplyDeleteRay
ReplyDeleteI do see the pressures to serve and I do not agree with it one bit, but that does not justify a rationalization to blame “The Church” for the social pressure, because it’s just that, SOCIAL pressure. That is clearly a flaw with the people not the church, so why is it that nearly every TBnon-M has issues about that that they hold the church responsible for? Again, I don’t know how many times it needs to be illustrated, the system is perfect, the people are not. The church has never and will never teach others to pressure people into living the commandments. Like Joseph said “I teach them the principals, and they govern themselves”. As I said for myself, I simply refused to acknowledge the pressure and did not let it affect me in a positive or negative way, because after all, why should I care what others think about what I choose to do.
As for my not so happy ex-LDS friends, it is true that most of them did leave because of sin or rebellion and thus I feel they lived in contradiction to what they truly believed inside. I do have one very close friend however who is an intellectual type and left, not because of sin or rebellion, but because he also had issues about the Book of Abraham. I viewed the same stuff he did, because back then he was into the church and had been blindly living it due to being brought up in it, whereas I had never really believed and so I was not rebelling or living contrary to what I believed. I maintain that I was more or less agnostic up until I was 20 years old. You said “rebellion (where you still believe in the church but just want to rebel) is totally different than discovering the truth about the church and walking away” and I totally agree with you. Point being, when I was on the other side of the fence I was not rebelling, I was living according to my beliefs of lack of any belief at all for that matter. I believe there are exceptions to the typical stereotype members and ex-members, and I believe that you and I are these exceptions. Let me ask you this, do you feel that you were unhappy and stressed while doing all of the things that active LDS do, because you yourself were trying to show outwardly that you were doing all the things you needed to. In other words were you just going through the actions and getting stressed out because of the overactive routine? I believe there is a burnout that occurs in many members and it causes much stress, anger and resentment. After all many would be embarrassed if they appeared as if they weren’t keeping up with the Jones’ spiritually, so as a result I feel many give up because it’s easier, but then they turn against to justify their actions, or lack thereof. Let’s face it, it’s not easy to be LDS, in fact it’s much harder to actively live it internally and to spiritually maintain it, and many never get there, they just go through the motions because they have been socially converted but never fully spiritually converted. As for happiness, nobody can be happy unless they live true to what they honestly believe. I do respect the fact that you don’t stand in the circle or participate solely because you don’t agree with it internally. I think there are far too many who do live it outwardly who shouldn’t, and unfortunately they don’t have the balls to admit it. So for that I do respect you and anyone else for that matter who guides their behavior by their by their heart, and not by what they think others would want to see them do. The ultimate goal in live is peace of mind which only comes from living in conjunction with what one honestly believes, there is no substitute, and I believe God will not punish anyone who has been honest with themselves.
Hinkley’s Jet is at airport 2 in SLC. My friend works there and I believe it is Huntsman’s jet. Huntsman owns two of them. One he uses for business and the other he keeps for Hinkley and any other GA’s that need it.
It is unfortunate that your family assumes you are sinning if you are not. It only adds to the stereotype of members looking to only the outer performances. I wish more could develop the insight to look on the heart as God does, and to not place judgment, but to leave that to Him. I don’t assume that you get loaded, chase women and live a riotous lifestyle, but in most cases of people “leaving” the church it is because of those types of actions. Stereotypes exist because they are true in many cases. As I mentioned earlier you and a few like yourself are exceptions to the rule. I don’t think you are antagonistic, because your responses have been insightful and well thought out. Where my problem and resentment lies is with ex-LDS like Samuel who actively bash and ridicule anything they can to demonstrate that they feel superior in some way for belittling or exposing others within the faith. He is a basher, there is no argument about it. I feel his intentions are malicious ill willed and negative, whereas yours seem to stem from another source.
Regarding the scrolls of Abraham, I find it interesting that they have been described as scrolls or tablets that were typically placed under the heads of mummies and that inscribed on them were “instructions” of how to get to heaven. Other scrolls and tablets have been found similar to the ones Joseph translated. Also here is some other noteworthy info. (I’m really not trying to get into a show and tell battle because many antis usually have bundles of it at their fingertips to use, I just thought you ought to look at both sides of an argument)
“I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham. . . . Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth” (History of the Church, 2:236).
How Did the Prophet Translate the Ancient Writings?
The Prophet Joseph Smith never communicated his method of translating these records. As with all other scriptures, a testimony of the truthfulness of these writings is primarily a matter of faith. The greatest evidence of the truthfulness of the book of Abraham is not found in an analysis of physical evidence nor historical background, but in prayerful consideration of its content and power. (In other words, as with all LDS scripture, reardless of how it was translated, does it do good in the world or cause harm? By their fruits ye shall know se 3 NEP 14:16-20)
Why Did the Prophet Joseph Smith Say He Translated the Writings of Abraham When the Manuscripts Do Not Date to Abraham’s Time?
In 1966 eleven fragments of papyri once possessed by the Prophet Joseph Smith were discovered in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. They were given to the Church and have been analyzed by scholars who date them between about 100 B.C. and A.D. 100. A common objection to the authenticity of the book of Abraham is that the manuscripts are not old enough to have been written by Abraham, who lived almost two thousand years before Christ. Joseph Smith never claimed that the papyri were autographic (written by Abraham himself), nor that they dated from the time of Abraham. It is common to refer to an author’s works as “his” writings, whether he penned them himself, dictated them to others, or others copied his writings later.
As for your reasons for leaving the church, that’s your choice, I do not condemn you for it. If you left because of facts and evidence, just realize that those facts and evidence were presented by a man, a regular man, as were those words by church leaders. They are regular men too and are prone too mistakes. If you want truth in your life there is only one source for that. God and Christ are the only one true and perfect thing in this world we can count on, so we can choose to live according to their principals (weather it be by LDS or any other set of Christian principals) I do not believe He will condemn us for that. But at the same time I don’t think he supports people who bash on leaders who even though they may not be perfect do all that they can to lead others closer to Christ. Again, that is where my beef with Samuel lies and with any other basher. If he truly was trying to be a crusader doing good, he would spend far less energy maintaining this pathetic blog and do something more worthwhile. Can you disagree? It is a disgrace and I pity him for the harm he is doing to himself. And the longer he peddles and promotes his filth and hatred the greater his shame and remorse will be when he stands to be judged.
last_daysaynt
Demon:
ReplyDeleteOnly a spineless coward thinks they cannot leave a mission. If they choose to feel shameful about leaving their mission then perhaps they are not leaving on account of being true to themselves. Anyone can have access to the MP at anytime and if they want to leave they are at liberty to do so. If a MP or ZL, DL, or companion tells them they can't who is going to stop them? It's all part of the plan called agency, and it wasnt free, Christ paid a huge price so that you and I could exercise it. If people try to restrict or take away agency then again, it is a flaw of the person you are dealing with or is the church to blame? My cousin left his mission 6 months into it and nobody put him on a plane and sent him back. They did however make sure he was safe while in their jurisdiction on account of him being carried on a church insurance policy. Just like anyone on a job, their employer is ultimately responsible for their safety while on duty. So yes when missionareis disappear measures will be taken to make sure they are safe. Cant leave??? Ha ha, what a joke!
last_daysaynt, you are just another brain dead morgbot troll. My mission was 2 years of abuse and hell and I am tried of Mor(m)on robots like you telling me it did not happen; it did!!! No further point in talking to you ,all you can do is spout the party line and not think for yourself.
ReplyDeletelast_daysaynt,
ReplyDeleteUltimately, you are correct. The church puts pressure not only on potential missionaries, but the members in general. Those who conform, choose to do so. Unfortunately, fear is a major factor.
This is when I realized that even Jesus is a fraud. The Jesus I grew up believing in would never manipulate anyone into obeying him. And yet the mormon Jesus is a very jealous person. In order to be saved you have to obey a million commandments. If you don't, Jesus will quickly boot your ass to hell.
The concepts of hell and damnation are made up ideas in order to keep the masses under control. The same with Jesus and god. There will not be a "judgement". I'm not professing to know what lies in the afterlife, but I do know that I do not need to live my life being afraid. Afraid of damnation. Afraid of a vengeful god. Afraid of offending my sacred underwear.
You know, there are many people who think what Samuel is doing is a wonderful thing. It is basically group therapy for myself and many others who learned the painful truth about the church. Many of us here have also come to understand that Jesus was most likely a real man but nothing more.
People don't realize the complete and total freedom that comes from relieving yourself of all these ridiculous superstitious beliefs. When we attempt to open the door and others, most of them cling to their cages. They are afraid of freedom. Just like a wild bear that was caught and placed in captivity, there comes a time that even when the bear's cage door is open, he refuses to leave.
Flip open your triple combination and read the short introduction to the Book of Abraham. It cleary says: "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. See History of the Church, vol 2, pp 235, 236, 348-351."
Even better than Joseph Smith making the claim that it was written by Abraham in some obscure quote, it is printed in the introduction of the Book of Abraham, which makes it pretty much set in stone. You know very well that the church has always taught and the members have always believed that Joseph Smith translated the same document that was written by Abraham.
You see, that is the trouble with the church apologists. In order to keep the story "true" you all have to change and twist small little details. Your argument is that Joseph never claimed to have the actual original document. But you know full well that he did and the church teaches it to this day and the members believe it. I mean it's printed right there in the scripture so how can you change it?
And if this does actually debunk the anti claims, why are they not published and made known to the general membership? While apologists continue to make up laughable explanations, the same old story is taught in church and 99% of the members are not even aware of any of the issues.
They are not aware that the church no longer publically refers to the Native Americans as "Lamanites" and yet it is still very much taught as it says in the introduction to the Book of Mormon: "...After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
The church has dug itself into so many holes, the only way it survives is to keep the issues totally quiet and the members completely in the dark. Again, a challenge. Familiarize yourself with the real issues and evidences against the church. How many of these issues are ever addressed in church, stake conference, general conference? NONE!!! The church continues on, pretending that nothing is wrong at all.
Did you know that it was official church doctrine from 1835 to 1921 that god is/was a personage of spirit? This teaching was found in a collection of writings called "The Lectures on Faith". You can still purchase the Lectures on Faith at Deseret Book. Go see for yourself. It is in Lecture 5. In 1921 the Lectures were removed from the D&C and section 130 was added, which officially changed the belief in god as a spirit, to god as a man with flesh and bone. Doesn't the church refer to changing doctrine as apostasy?
Did you read the quotes in my last post? What did you think of that? Joseph Smith was forced to come up with the current first vision story when the members started losing faith in him. He needed to give himself more credibility.
Finally, ask youself. Why would most of the Book of Mormon witnesses leave the church? Why did so many of the early apostles and first presidency members turn against Joseph? It is because they finally saw through his web of lies. The man you revere as a true prophet of god was a liar and a con man. All you have to do is read and think and you will be able to see it.
One more thing:
ReplyDeleteEven if you still want to stick to your argument that Joseph Smith never claimed to have the actual original document (which we all know he did) it doesn't change the fact that the documents he had in his possession turned out to be very common Egyptian funerary texts known as the Book of Breathings. There is no relationship of this common document with Abraham whatsoever!
Mormons are generally pretty good people who do have nothing but good intentions. BUT does a true faith in a false idea make that idea true? No. Mormons are indeed good people but that doesn't make the church true.
By the way, "The church is perfect but the people aren't" is not an argument that is going to convince anyone here of your point. All we see is a brainwashed cult member who is quoting brainwashed ideas.
And yes, we are all aware of the churches claim that your feelings or "the spirit" provides all the evidence you will ever need to know. Brigham Young said that there were people living on the moon. Science has proven he was wrong. So should we continue to believe it just because BY said it? A feeling is a very poor way to determine the reality of something. Use your mind; that's why you have it.
last_daysaynt .. Hi greetings from England . I am an investigator of the church and I understand your comments about asking God and feeling the spirit about matters of faith .However The Book Of Abraham has 3 facsimiles .If you take a look at Pearl Of Great Price page 41 , at Facsimile 3 . It shows six characters numbered 1 to 6 ..... No 1 is the Egyptian God OSIRIS but Joseph Smith said this is Abraham ? No 2 is ISIS ( wife of Osiris ) but Joseph Smith said its King Pharaoh ? ( but its a FEMALE !! ) , No 4 is goddess MA'AT yet Joseph Smith said its Prince of Pharaoh ? ( but its a female again !!! ) ?? Surely there is something not quiet right here ??
ReplyDeleteHave you seen this before and how would you reconcile this obvious ERROR ?
Elder Joseph
Joe
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe for one second that you are an “investigator” in the way that you want me to believe. Your name implies the mockery you make towards both the title and the man. You seem to fit more appropriately into the class of a critic, which is fine, but if you are an investigator you would be better spending your time learning from real missionaries, not being influenced from the likes of anti’s like Samuel. As for my thoughts, one thing that you notice is that in many religions there are several parallels. All religions had to stem from one place, and branched out from some point. I believe that all religions or belief systems have aspects of truth in them and many understand truths about certain aspects much more than the LDS religion does. I do not think you have to be LDS to go to heaven. I simply believe that you have to strive to do all that you can to seek God's will and to obediently follow it, and by so doing God will recognize your sincere efforts (works) and His grace will allow you to have a chance to accept and follow His teachings (become baptized under His priesthood authority). There are several inspired men raised up to lead, illustrate, and instruct people of differing cultures to inspire them to become better. Muhammad, Gandhi, Buddha, Jesus Christ. None of the people who obediently follow inspired truth will be condemned for it. When Moses was here it wasn’t called the Mormon Church, and in Christ’s time it wasn’t the Church of Jesus Christ. I do believe that a restoration was necessary to bring back the priesthood, thus I believe that the current LDS church is the one faith or religion that has the priesthood. I have my own issues with people in the church too, but it doesn’t mean I blame the church for that individuals shortcomings. I spent time on my mission talking about the similarities of the LDS teachings with even a Wiccan, and there are many similarities, and in my opinion, people can either focus on the differences or the similarities. You can look at the Institute Manuals online for free at this site. worldwideweb.ldsces.org/manual_index.asp go look at the student manual for the Pearl of Great Price and read whatever you want about the Book of Abraham. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as for myself, I don’t focus on subtle differences in what may have been spoken by a few people in leadership positions within the church, but instead I view how much all the other belief systems of the world align with what the I have learned from the LDS teachings and that in itself further strengthens my faith in the LDS teachings. I feel the LDS church is combining and bringing all the truth back into one belief system. It may not be without flaws right now, but I don’t condemn it because of the inaccuracies of a few men. God didn’t create the world in one day so how can we expect that He was able to re-establish a perfect church on earth again through imperfect men? There will always be critics and I think it is good, because it will just help to refine the faith of those who believe, because lets face it, you can’t prove a testimony, either people have one or they don’t. I think people need to come to their own conclusions. If it didn’t require faith then everyone would believe. People need to follow teachings in order to gain an understanding of them. Before anyone reads anti-statements (which are typically statements of LDS leaders taken out of context and twisted to mean something different) I encourage them to first read the real stuff in its context form the source, and then make a judgment on it. On another note, if you still persist in seeking "evidence" i reccomend that you subscribe to FARMS (Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies). Ciao.
Last_daysaynt
Re: Book of Abraham (www.mormanity.blogspot.com) Look at Jan 11th 2007.
ReplyDeleteHere's another one about the Book of Abraham. Enjoy!(http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2005/08/all-lies-my-experience-with-book-of.html)
ReplyDeleteOne of the best ways to lose your testimony is to subscribe to FARMS! Those idiots will twist their own already twisted history and stories to keep every thing "true". Instead of looking at all the evidence and then deciding the best outcome, they decide the outcome and then select only that which supports their claims.
ReplyDelete===================================
Old Mormon teaching: The Nephites and Lamanites were descendants of the Jews and spread across the entire western continent.
Evidence to the contrary: DNA proves that the Native Americans are not from Jerusalem.
FARMS Explanation: Limited Geography Theory. Suggests that the peoples of the Book of Mormon only inhabited a small area while there were other nations around. Eventually their DNA got mixed.
DOH! If that was the case, wouldn't a prophet have revealed it BEFORE the DNA evidence came out? Why change the story after 200 years?
===================================
Old Mormon Teaching: That Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from plates made of pure gold.
Evidence to the Contrary: No gold plates anywhere. Also, gold plates matching Joseph's description would have weighed at least 200 lbs. Joseph would not be able to tuck the plates under his arm and outrun a mob of men who wanted to steal them!
FARMS Explanation: The plates weren't made of gold but some ligher and durable metal.
DOH! If that was the case, why did Joseph Smith first think about how much the plates were worth when he first saw them? Gold never tarnishes or rusts and is one of the few metals that could have stayed buried for ~1500 years and still been legible. Best explanation... no plates at all!
===================================
Old Mormon Teaching: That the Hill Cumorah in New York state is the site of two great battles where millions of people lost their lives.
Evidence to the Contrary: Not one single sword, shield, bone or any other evidence of a large battle has ever been found in that area.
FARMS Explanation: The Hill Cumorah was somewhere else. After the great battle, Moroni hid and wandered to present day New York where he buried the plates. The location of the great battle site is unknown.
DOH! If that is the case, why have prophets (who can never be wrong according to Mormons) continually declaired that the hill in New York is indeed the site of the great battles?
===================================
There is more and more! Thank you, FARMS, for showing the world just how full of holes Mormonism really is!
last_daysaynt ........ It appears joseph Smith didn't know what he was on about . Thats being kind , in reality he seems a fraud by the Facsimile No3 evidence . When he claimed to be able to translate the egyptian papyrus , no one could challenge him or know if he was for real because understanding the egyptian hieroglyphs hadn't reached America yet.
ReplyDeleteJean-François Champollion deciphered hieroglyphs in 1822, after many years of studying the Rosetta Stone and other examples of ancient Egyptian writing. So now we have an understanding . Joseph Smiths description of facsimile no 3 is TOTALLY FALSE . It seems the church has canonised a FALSE DESCRIPTION of Facsimile No3 . The prophet can't lead the church astray it says ib their even if its own book is astray !
You agree then that in The Book Of Abraham Facsimile No 3 ........ Joseph Smith described it all wrong. Did he make a mistake then or was he really a liar and a conman who went on to seduce women in the name of God , marry other mens wives , and threaten those women who refused his sexual approaches and asked for other mens wives ......... Would you give your wife/sister/daughter to the prophet too ?
I already subscribe to FARMS .. Thats why I know about the reality of the church . No good asking my missionaries , they haven't a clue . They are busy filling in Numbers and statistics for Mission president .
Elder Joseph
Ps I'm an investigator , the church gave me that title .