After my original post over on the Ex-Mormon recovery board, I've had several people thank me for posting this information. This was my response to those that thanked me publicly and silently. For anyone that I may have helped or that felt grateful that I would post this information, this response is for you also:
Hey, no problem, it is my pleasure!! I'm just so glad that I'm not the close minded, brainwashed, judgmental person anymore, that the Mormon Church and their teachings had helped to create. I just can't believe how insensitive and clueless I really was. I guess better late than never.
I've already helped several people to change their views on gay marriage and why everybody should have the chance to be happy and with someone they love. It doesn't matter where they are from, what the color of their skin is or what their sexual preference is. People are people. People have feelings and the right to be happy. That last statement I just made would get me excommunicated from the Mormon bigot Church. Isn't that amazing?
If I or anyone that was an active member of the Church, went public, on TV, radio, etc and made those statements and said that we disagreed with the Church on their beliefs, they would ex us. Wow!! Any doubts guys that the Mormon Church is a hate filled bigoted Church? Any doubt left that the Mormon Church is a cult?!! Most of the members that are against gay marriage or black people, are just being the way they have been trained and told to be. If they aren't, they risk excommunication.
I wanted to share some other quotes from an article about Kip Eliason from Idaho who committed suicide because he couldn't stop masturbating. Of course the Church believes that anyone that masturbates, has the danger of becoming homosexual. That is their real fear about masturbation. These excerpt's that I'm gonna share with you guys were shocking to me and I was horrified that the Mormon Church had actually been involved in something so degrading and evil. I don't know if they still do it, but I'm sure they do, why not? right?
I know that the Church basically runs "Evergreen" and that Mormon GA's and Bishops, Leaders, etc, are on the board. It's just awful!! For those out there that know more about what is currently going on with "Evergreen" and what they actually do there, I'd love to know. Are they still doing the "Shock Therapy?" Are they still using pornography?
Anyway, here's the quote from the article that was written:
"In a devotional speech to young adults in 1974 the late Spencer W. Kimball, Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the Mormon Church, admonished teenagers: "Immorality [petting, premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality and masturbation] brings generally a guilt deep and lasting. These guilt complexes are the stuff of which mental breakdowns come; they are the building blocks of suicide, the fabric of distorted personalities and the wounds that scar and decapitate individuals or families.""
"In the pamphlet Love vs. Lust, Kimball warned masturbators that if they don't stop, they will end up homosexual: "Masturbation is the introduction of the more serious sin of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality." And in Tools for Missionaries the church states that medical doctors believe masturbation "dulls the mind and has adverse effect on the memory.""
If the church's stand on masturbation is based on turn-of-the-century science, its controversial treatment for homosexuals might be right out of the futureshock novel and cult-film classic A Clockwork Orange.
The so-called electroshock conditioning starts in the downtown Salt Lake City office of psychologist and active Mormon Robert Card. First, electrodes are strapped to the homosexual's arms or fingers, biofeedback monitors are attached to his head, and a circular electronic sensor is placed around his penis. Next, the patient sits in a darkened room where he views videotapes of heterosexual and homosexual sex acts.
If the patient gets an erection while watching the heterosexual tapes, a biofeedback digital-display monitor registers a positive numerical reading. But if the patient begins to have an erection while viewing the homosexual tapes, the electrodes strapped to his arms or fingers deliver an electrical shock.
Don Atridge, an ex-Mormon homosexual who was also a member of the famed Mormon Tabernacle Choir, underwent five months of shock treatments conducted by Dr. Card, whom he refers to as Dr. Frankenstein. "Every time I left his office, I was hornier than ever. Many times my arms were red and cut up from the shocks — they looked like hamburger."
Another ex-Mormon gay, Les (who wanted only his first name identified), is very angry. "It's horrible having the hell shocked out of you when you get sexually excited. The entire thing was disgusting." Les even considered suicide. "After a while suicide looked like the most honorable thing to do. Many Mormon gays do it. I had it all planned, an automobile accident on a certain curve in the mountains; it was a way my children and family would be spared."
In February 1984 the Australian television version of 60 Minutes aired a segment about the treatments, titled "Saints and Sinners." Utah native and ex-Mormon Gary L. Stone told producer Warren McStoker that be didn't just leave the church after being treated by Dr. Card. He kidnapped his four-year-old daughter from his ex-wife to get her away from the church and then moved to Australia.
"Getting myself and my daughter away from the Mormon Church was the best decision I've made in my entire 32-year life." About Dr. Card's treatment he says, "It's destructive. They are purposely trying to destroy you. If you are a homosexual in the church, you have only three options — you can lie, you can die or you can disappear."
While publicly abhorring any form of pornography, the church uses porn to treat homosexuality. And although it doesn't openly embrace Dr. Card's treatment, many higher-ups endorse the therapy and even refer church members for treatment.
The Mormon instructional pamphlet Homosexuality outlines and suggests specific therapeutic methods to be used in sex counseling. They include establishing rapport and confidentiality, assessment counseling, fantasy-changing, goal-setting, thought-stopping, chain-breaking and aversion therapy. The church believes that all homosexuals started out as masturbators; so counselors are instructed to identify the masturbator, gain his confidence, assess his needs and then design and implement a plan to help him stop before it leads to "more perverse and repugnant sins."
Although the church encourages the use of these potentially dangerous therapies, it fails to offer implementation guidelines. Bishops have no way of recognizing emotional and psychological problems or even mental illness. Also, they have no way of knowing whether the therapy is helpful or harmful.
Again, Dr. Jack Annon: "It is my professional opinion that the LDS Church has gone a step beyond propounding a certain viewpoint that masturbation is a sin, and has actually instructed its leaders, teachers and bishops to provide counseling and to utilize behavior-'modification skills that can have very dangerous and adverse effects."
The link to article
I hope that we can get more people to respond to this post and express what they think and feel about these horrific teachings by the Mormon Church. I know that for me, it is something very passionate because these teachings are causing depression, suicides and loss of life. I believe that these teachings are downright criminal, destructive and life destroying!! If they don't outrage you, they should!!
Samuel the Utahnite
If all the above statements are even true, it does not mean that the LDS church is not true. I know lots of stupid Mormons that have done stupid things and have even stupid ideas but this does not disprove the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a modern day prophet of God. Read the Book of Mormon if you already have base your testimony on that and how Jesus Christ really is responsible for it. There are stupid people in the Mormon church that are very ignorant, just like there are very stupid and ignorant people in the Christ's church in old times. Just read the Bible, I can't believe how patient Jesus was. His apostles today in the Mormon church are no more perfect today than they were in the new testament. Following the basic principles of the Mormon church will bring you closer to God in this life than anything else you will find on this earth.
ReplyDeleteIt's simple; if those "stupid Mormons that have done stupid things" and "have stupid ideas" and the "stupid people" that you speak of, include the Prophets and Apostles, past and present...you have a huge problem and the church is false, without a doubt.
ReplyDeleteYou are forgetting that you've been promised, as a Mormon, that you cannot EVER be led astray by these men, without God removing them. Let me post the quotes as a reminder:
M. Russell Ballard said:
"God bless you to keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. We will not lead you astray. We cannot."
Then President Benson taught:
"The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet, The prophet will never lead the church astray and The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
In Declaration #1, in the Doctrine and Covenants:
"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."
M. Russell Ballard then says again:
"You keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. WE WILL NOT LEAD YOU ASTRAY. WE CANNOT."
Now, these are Apostles and Prophets teaching this; so were they leading astray then or are they doing it now?.
I'm simply holding these men to their own standards of excellence and near perfection and infallibility that they assure everyone they have. They cannot error, or make a mistake, EVER, that would in any way lead the Saints astray; that is the promise, right?
So why then were these men allowed to teach such horrible things, such as what is in this post and in addition, that blacks are cursed by God, with a flat nose and black skin, etc?
You really need to re-evaluate your beliefs and who and what you believe in and why. Put these men to the test. They promise they cannot ever take a misstep in their teachings and can never be wrong.
So now, use your own common sense, read their teachings, use your brain, think logically and see if you agree with EVERY word and EVERYTHING they say. If you don't, they are false Prophets and the church is false.
Study up on Joseph Smith's child-brides as young as 14, that he sex with, behind Emma's back, in secrecy. Read about how Joseph Smith married other men's happily married wives and had sex with them too. Wouldn't this be adultery?
However, nowadays, if you masturbate, you're screwed, but Joseph Smith was committing adultery with at least 33 women in secret, because "God commanded it" and "would have his angel kill him with a flaming sword", if he didn't.
Anyway, do your homework, know the "true Mormon history" and then get back to me, because you appear to be in the dark and very naive, just as I was 20 months ago.
It's not easy finding out one day that you were in a cult your whole life and that the entire foundation of the church today and all the way back to 1820, was based on fraud and lies.
However, great freedom of mind, thought and expression, that you've never had, await you, when you finally make your exit from the Mormon cult and it is a great feeling!!
Good luck and best wishes,
Samuel
Im sorry to say it but I think you are misinterrupting alot of these qoutes from what the person being qouted had orginaly meant for example...
ReplyDeleteM. Russell Ballard said:
"God bless you to keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. We will not lead you astray. We cannot."
you impleyed he was saying that they couldnt lead people astray because god wouldnt let them, AKA denying them the free agency to do so... now that dosent make much sence to me.
I read it as
"God bless you to keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church."
(because they should be giving good advice that will help in some way with your life)
"We will not lead you astray.We cannot."
(I took this part as more of a way of him saying that they would do there best to help lead and would not knowingly lead people down a bad path. The "We cannot." part is him saying that if they were to knowingly lead people astray than they would have failed God of course they "cannot" let that happen
And for the record, Im not saying there isnt another more accurate interpetation for qoute, but I am saying the only way to truly understand the exact meaning behund ones words is to ask the person who said them...
Okay, fine, we'll strike Ballard's comments from the conversation, because he didn't actually mean exactly what he said.
ReplyDeleteSo, now explain Wilford Woodruff's statement and try to twist his words, like a pretzel, into something that will fit your idea of the "one and only true church:"
In Declaration #1, in the Doctrine and Covenants:
"The Lord will NEVER PERMIT ME OR ANY OTHER MAN WHO STANDS AS PRESIDENT OF THIS CHURCH TO LEAD YOU ASTRAY. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. IF I WERE TO ATTEMPT THAT, THE LORD WOULD REMOVE ME OUT OF MY PLACE, AND SO HE WILL ANY OTHER MAN WHO ATTEMPTS TO LEAD THE CHILDREN OF MEN ASTRAY FROM THE ORACLES OF GOD AND FROM THEIR."
So, what does that mean to you? What does "IF I WERE TO ATTEMPT THAT, THE LORD WOULD REMOVE ME OUT OF MY PLACE..." mean to you?
It will be interesting to hear your twist on his words, so that they once again fit into your little box of understanding. Trust me, I understand, because I used to do the same thing you're doing.
The fact is, when you're a Mormon, you ALWAYS begin with the premise that "the church is true", no matter what. So, then we have to make every single thing fit perfectly, no matter how much we have to distort it and twist our brains.
Good luck and I look forward to your response.
Also, do you agree that the youth of the church should be taught, as Kimball and the First Presidency taught, that "It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste."
How about:
"Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - BETTER DEAD CLEAN, THAN ALIVE UNCLEAN. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: 'I WOULD RATHER YOU HAVE COME BACK IN A PINE BOX WITH YOUR VIRTUE THAN RETURN ALIVE WITHOUT IT.'"
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.
Heber J. Grant is also quoted in Kimball's book saying:
"...There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity -- realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world."
If that isn't telling people that have committed sexual sin to kill themselves in shame, I don't know what is. I can't believe that anyone would teach, yet alone actually believe, support and sustain these horrific teachings, as having come from "inspired men of God."
Then, in conclusion, we have Kimball talking about women that are raped and he concludes with:
"It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
So right here, Kimball is saying that any woman who survives a rape, should be dead, would be better off dead and obviously didn't fight hard enough or she would be 6 feet under!!
You actually support these horrific and startling teachings, that have caused people to kill themselves?
Samuel
The mormon church sucks. WEll most organized religions suck, but especially the mormons.
ReplyDeletehello..I'm a retired journalist and have had extensive interaction with homosexuals, anti-mormons, mormons and generally sometimes it seems like the whole world...in a word your effort to dismantle the LDS are typical of frustrated homophobic or homosexual males who are now anti-mormon. Pres. Kimball is correct, according to scientific empirical evidence concerning addiction to masturbation. Many homosexual men have proudly admitted how much they've engaged in masturbation and pornography as teenagers with little self-control over their own bodies. Plenty of heterosexual men say the same thing, while it destroys their marriages etc. that they don't have control over their own bodies. Hence the word "Masterbates." bating the master which is the person..That's the origin of the word itself. This has nothing to do with being repressed, most LDS enjoy wonderful, sexually fulfilling marriages, it has to do with the worlds view of "give me what I want NOW, when I want it, how much I want it..." you get the drift. You and many anti's like yourself get frustrated with the Church because it requires you to become a better human being, better father, better husband, better citizen. Mediocre is the battlecry today. Being excellent and trying to overcome weakness is now considered a weakness and fault according to the anti's. It's like saying "hey billy, get that C, you don't have to prove yourself and be an A student" A students are boring!! That's what it sounds like to my ears. Go to the RFM board and read all the posts I have...they are the most depressing, sad, pathetic writings I have ever read, and I read alot of blogs! I would like to see one anti mormon, not bitter, not turning to porn, alcohol, hate mongers, anger, putting down friends and family and spouses even children!! I can't understand why you would think those of us who love the Lord and are in the Church would for a second want to join a bunch of whiney, self-absorbed, angry, unhappy throng of anti mormons and atheists.. the saying misery likes company should have "www.rfm.com" next to it... I feel for you and the other people, I'm not trying to be cruel, I just cannot understand why like a drug-addict or alcoholic you guys go back to the "drug" or bottle by wallowing in your misery for years and years. If the Church was such a bad experience, move on and as my mom says "happiness and a good life is the best revenge" Choose to still be excellent, happy, helpful, kind, loving and a good citizen. Then maybe people might listen to your message. But as I see it, you offer nothing close to the truth. You obviously have not checked your facts but regurgitated the same old tired arguments which have not put a dent in the growth and rate of growth of the Lord's Church. SO you've proven people are human in the Church and make mistakes, that still does not account for how living the Gospel makes one truly happy and how faith truly proceeds miracles. You and many like you feel like i.e. do what ever pops into your head, have no self-control or self-respect etc. BTW sadly, the Prophet Pres. Kimball's predictions about suicide, debauchery etc. associated with homosexuality is absolutely scientifically correct. I have a brother in law with aids and love him very much. I want there to be a cure, but have a feeling it won't ever happen in my lifetime. All people should be loved, but behavior is another story,Condoning sin is not some revolutionary idea.. I hope you really research your claims before you decide to fully live the anti mormon life.. which is a life that has never brought anyone to the conclusion "I'm so much happier being out of the Church then when I was in the Church." If you were honest with yourself sir, you would admit you are completely depressed and miserable right now. I would suggest reading ALma 37:27-44, don't worry its not preachy, its actually very comforting..."it is easy to give heed to the words of Christ which will carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.." Beautiful original thoughts, not penned a by Joseph Smith Sr. but translated by the gift and power of God...Good luck to you and God help you..Kittywaymo
ReplyDeletewith the language, stand, views and opinions that we are using right now, i find it interesting how fascinating would it be for us to discuss this matter in the great judgment bar, bringing "the same spirit to enter our bodies"
ReplyDeleteThere is no point debating about the church... the members have been taught to think only one way and feel really guilty if they question anything, since they were born- it is like talking to a robot that has been programmed.
ReplyDeleteThey don't have the ability to critically think... which is true of many faiths. It is not their fault it is just what happens when parents pass on to their children the only thing they knew, especially when connected to how they won't make it to heaven if they believe otherwise. The reason their is sometimes such hate and anger when people bring up things that question the church is the fear that lies in the heart of so many mormons. If you really love something and see it as beautiful you would be filled with peace. I was a converted member when I was 13 years old for 20 years because I was so afraid to leave until 1992... I knew 150% percent the church was false for all those years. The day I read in the book of mormon about the native americans changing color from "white and delightsome" to "dark, filthy, and loathsome" people depending upon if they were being good or bad shocked me. At 14 years old I was totally embarassed about the ignorance of being a part of an organization that could possibly be a part of such damaging superstition. That is like saying white polar bears are more righteous than black bears... silly silly silly.... I live my life open now, as an exploration or adventure- loving that I don't know anything for sure but see life as an amazing miracle, filled with gratitude. So happy I don't feel guilty about questioning anything I want freely and with joy. Thankful I am able to use my brain fully and without limits... no one thinking for me!
This is sad. I don't think there's a point in trying to say anything to help you understand your misunderstandings or misconceptions. But I don't know how much of it is just blind hatred now. Your research is biased and edited. That's not the main problem; it's your interpretation of the research, taking things out of context, or analyzing it wrong. First off, it was not said that masturbation will lead to homosexuality. He said, "Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to
ReplyDeletethe more serious sins of exhibitionism and the
gross sin of homosexuality."
I don't know how much information you've changed, manipulated, or fabricated, it's irrelevant to me. I just want to say this.
I was a bisexual atheist, going for a PhD in Neuroscience. Now I am a bisexual Mormon, still going for my PhD. I am not stupid, nor have I been brainwashed. I did not come to this decision easily, especially with all the false trash I hear about the church, in addition to my sexual orientation. I decided to become an active member of the church because I truly genuinely believe in something that I have found out through reading and prayer, not due to blind obedience or traditions.
Samuel the Utahnite is a sad individual who can't let go of his bigotry. He has at least 7 youtube accounts, a twitter account, & now this account. He cannot refrain from spewing our all of the arguments he has stolen from other men's "research." He is clearly a victim of inoculation, as outlined in the "Inoculation Theory."
ReplyDeleteAs one who used to be Mormon and still loves the religion as a cultural and familial guide, I have to say Samuel has many good points. The only thing that seems to trip him up is trying to convince people who do not in any way wish to be convinced.
ReplyDeleteNot as a criticism to anyone but once you can leave your critical thinking skills as a lower priority than the truth you really must believe, you cannot have a valid argument. Valid arguments always start with, "suppose I'm wrong." Religious folks (yes, even no Mormons) always start with the premise, "I'm not wrong, so here is what that statement must mean." i think the biggest thing to get out of this is that Evergreen does amazingly destructive things to people's psyche under the (presumed earnest) intention of praying away the gay. The hypothesis that gay is curable is erroneous and it cannot be "cured."
I know Mormon's have a tough time with this! My best friend (who is Mormon) thinks people are gay because they weren't popular enough in school. Like it was the only club that would accept them. Laughable on the surface i know, but he really believes it and he's not the only one. Look, people are who they are. If the Mormon church fits you, you're lucky as you have a fantastic life ahead of you. If it doesn't, find something that is and find that fantastic life. Check out iamanexmormon.com . Its a fantastic site for finding the life that will make you happy.
To all my Mormon brothers and sisters, although we don't believe the same things, I love you all as I know you love me. We are all family. Lets treat each other as such.
I'm a Mormon. Say what you want about the Mormons Most of what you say is likely true or at least true in part. Luckily it's not the Mormons, not even the prophets and apostles that will save us in the end, otherwise Christ would not need to return and reign personally upon the earth for a thousand years before he declares this earth experienced finished for everyone. I'm a practicing and fully believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know the gospel of Jesus Christ is true I would argue that the church itself is only a fallible vessel for the carrying of the true gospel to the world. Of course the church is not totally true. Otherwise all of it's members that make it up would also all be perfect and no one is. Il never again argue against a so called "anti Mormon" it means nothing at all to be an anti Mormon other than you have a beef with someone or something someone taught in the church. Heck I don't even like myself or some of my own family members sometimes who all are Mormons so at times I'm even an anti Mormon. Let's call anti Mormons what they really are. Offended ex Mormons. Or just plain or better yet I call for a reclassification of anyone that claims to be anti Mormon or anti any church for that matter. Let's call them anti Christians. You can't be a Christian and claim to be against other children of God If you say you are anti Mormon then more power to ya. Now if your anti Christian on the other hand well then we have a legitimate platform to discuss. I wouldn't doubt the reality of Christ for a moment no matter how fallible the people of his church are.
ReplyDelete