Direct link to Part 1
Direct link to Part 2
Direct link to part 3
Direct link to part 4
Direct link to part 5
(See if you guys, in this part 5, can keep straight and keep track of who is who and of all the different Gods and Godheads? LOL!! I admire John for hanging with her, as she rattled off this God and that God and who is our God and where he lived, where he went, what kind of body he had, that he didn't know he was God, etc.
I have to listen to it again to see if I can understand more clearly what she's talking about, as I must be tired.{I just took an Advil} I wonder how she would explain the very first God? Was he just always God or was he just a man too and somehow became a God on his own? I think Cognitive dissonance may be the only way to fully understand her.)
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As soon as part 5 is out, I will post it here on this thread. This interview is really awesome guys!! It's so refreshing to actually hear a true believing Mormon "HONESTLY" speak about the Mormon church's "true history" and that is exactly what Anne B. Wilde(and John Dehlin) does in this interview(Hinckley could take a lesson). She isn't trying to make excuses for it, or claim that it never happened or that they "were just men", etc, rather just saying it like it is and was.
All TBMS everywhere could learn a lot from Anne and I certainly hope they do!! I mean come on guys, those of you that call me and all ex-Mormons liars, frauds and so on; is Anne just making it all up too? Is she a fraud? Is she a liar? Of course she isn't lying, as she is a real "True Believing Mormon" that follows the "true doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, unlike the church today, that won't even talk about such things and calls those of us who do, anti-Mormons, disease germs(Packer), liars or in Anne's case; "a fundamentalist", who has never had anything whatsoever to do with the Mormon church, and who is excommunicated for her beliefs(that Joseph Smith taught of course).
I of course don't agree with her beliefs and I personally find polygamy to be disgusting, as most of you know, but I certainly admire her courage on talking about it openly and not acting like the Mormon apologists(like Daniel C. Peterson or Jeff Lindsay) of today that try to justify, rationalize and explain away all of it, like it never happened, all the journals are fabricated by antis, etc.
Thanks John for doing this interview and I still don't understand(and never will) how you are able to "put it all on the shelf", as if it doesn't matter or affect the church today or your testimony, but to each their own and I'm just glad that you're back, doing what you do, exposing the "real truth" of Mormonism's history and teachings.
For any TBMS or ex-Mormons out there reading this, that don't already know; John Dehlin is an active Mormon and a "true believer" that isn't afraid to openly discuss every skeleton in the Mormon Hierarchy's closet(vault) and you can visit him and leave comments at his website Mormon Stories.
I also look forward to your comments here in Mormon Truth, especially you TBS, that claim Joseph Smith wasn't even a polygamist or that "polygamy was for widows" and us anti-Mormons are just lying about it. How many people have to be lying, in order for the Mormon church to be true?
Take care everyone and enjoy the interviews!!
Samuel the Utahnite
I have just a couple of comments to add to your post. Mormon racism is not just against blacks. The scandal against Seventy George P Lee convenient come to light after Lee publicly
ReplyDeletecriticized Mormon treatment of Laminaties (Native Americans). I wonder if the Morg leadership knew about the scandal all a long and just brought to light after Lee's criticism.
Mormon still segregate in Utah , Hispanics and pacific islanders are send to separate wards. I had a Hispanic TBM neighbor with a PhD who spoke perfect English he was still send to the Spanish ward.
opps this was a comments on the previos post
ReplyDeleteAnne appears to be very open and honest about her view of polygamy.
ReplyDeleteI personally find it repulsive.
I also cannot understand how John Dehlin can know the truth about the big lie of the lds church and stay in it. I like his podcasts, but when I think about him personally, I am repulsed by the way he deals with mormonism.
Thanks for posting this. I sure look forward to your podcasts. I miss them greatly.
I think John Dehlin is very brave and honest in his views of LDS .I've no doubt he's thinking of the positives in the LDS teachings and looks forward perhaps to a more open church ( where its leaders are concerned at least). I enjoy his podcasts . I've been investigating the church for just over a year and thanks to people like John Dehlin and SamuelTheUtahnite I have a more balanced perspective of events of the origin of the LDS church . If I'd have just listened to the spin version of the missionaries and the church then later when I found things out , it would have made me quiet angry . The church has a history it would rather people didn't know the full extent of.( including its own members).. I'm sure there would be an exodus if many knew the full history .I think there are many members unaware of many things and would leave if they knew about them , its not fair to keep people in the dark. Honesty is of God afterall ...........Elder Joseph
ReplyDeleteSorry about that John if you don't consider yourself to be a TBM and you're welcome for the support. I've followed you all along and I have great respect for you as a person and your work and I'm grateful for what you do to expose the "truth of Mormonism", even though I'm sure you don't see what you do in the same light that I and most ex-Mormons do.
ReplyDeleteI did listen to your story(which was great by the way) and I personally would still call you a TBM-TRUE BELIEVING MORMON, in the sense that, despite all of the problems, difficulties, lies, horrific things, etc, that you've discussed openly, that exist in Mormon history and teachings; you still believe, with ALL your heart that the church does good, is right for you, etc, right?
Isn't that what a true believer is? They believe that no matter what difficulty there is, that it can be explained, or at least understood, or just put on the shelf? I would say that there are many varying degrees of TBM and not just one, that most of us often refer to and use. It would be like saying all ex-Mormons are like me, which wouldn't be true either.
You are the one that coined the phrase(at least during my journey, for me), that you "put it all on the shelf."
I'm the one that responded, on a podcast, "that my shelf got so damn heavy, that is crashed through the floor and landed in the basement." I don't think there's many in the ex-Mormon community, that can really understand how or why you do it, unless it was too keep your family together, which doesn't seem to be the case for you.
What makes you different though, from the Mormon apologists at FAIR, or FARMS or people like Van Hale; is that you can actually admit that certain things did happen, are true, were taught, are reality and don't try to cover them up or make excuses.
In other words, you are living in the "real world" as far as knowing what happened and not on the planet Kolob, or the twilight zone, like they are.
Then, somehow(where we get confused in the ex-Mormon community), you are able to come back to the same place they are, as far as believing in the church enough to go every week, teach classes, raise your kids in it, etc. I'm pretty sure that most ex-Mormons would call you a TBM in that regard, but you obviously should have an asterisk by your name, as you aren't "the typical TBM" that we think of and see regularly.
It's just hard for those of us that have discovered everything you have, know pretty much what you know, to imagine continuing to go, teach classes, sit through classes full of lies and false teachings(not be able to dispute every false thing) and then raise our families in the church, as if it's all okay, or at least acceptable and that those things on the shelf don't exist. That would be cognitive dissonance John.
What is even worse, is when people can suspend all logical and rational thought for their burning bosom or what they think is the holy ghost telling them that everything is warm and fuzzy in Mormonism, despite all reality.
It has been a while since I listened to your story and read that page your linked to, so I'll go re-listen and re-read and then correct anything I've said that I feel is wrong or a misinterpretation of what you've said.
All I know, is that despite everything, you still go to church and see it as a great place to raise a family and that's problematic for most of us in the ex-Mormon community, who can't even fathom how somebody could do that, after knowing "the real truth."
I'm just trying to explain where we are coming from, or at least where I'm coming from as I can't really speak for everyone else, although I assume that many out there feel as I do, from conversations we've had.
However, like I've said, that's fine, as you probably don't fully understand where I'm coming from either, in condemning the church strongly and openly, for the same things that you "put on the shelf." As long as we're both happy John, that's all that matters, right?
The reason I can get along with you John or tolerate your activity in the church, despite all that you now know, is because you are at least able to ADMIT that it all happened, which makes you a great guy in my book.
I do not get along with the apologists and their tactics that I've mentioned and I really detest those guys and their dishonesty strongly, like Daniel C. Peterson for example and yes, even John Lynch from Fair, who you interviewed. May I also say that the dislike between us is mutual, as they can't stand me or what I do either, so it's a 2 way street, not just from my side.
Jeff Lindsay, for example, won't even allow me to dialogue with his "fragile" posters, or him, over on his blog and if I even try to leave a comment, that contradicts what he says, or contains the "real truth", he promptly deletes my comment and then apologizes to his readers for the anti-Mormon that tried to infiltrate his blog.
Yeah, that's openness and honesty...what a joke!! But that's what I'm talking about and you John are worlds apart from those guys.
Also, you don't try to twist the words of Brigham Young and say that he didn't really mean it or that someone transcribed it wrong, or that it really didn't happen, etc. You are straightforward and honest and tell it like it is, which is my kind of person.
As long as you do that, and don't openly defend the church against all of these things, pretending that they don't matter or didn't really happen, then it doesn't really matter to me what you do after that, like continuing to go to church every Sunday.
Also, thank you John for respecting the fact that I never want to go to church again and despite the fact that our methods and ways of doing things are pretty different from each other.
I liken you more to Grant Palmer or Darron Smith or Jeffrey Nielsen, all who pretty much condemn the church in one regard or many regards, but continue to go and hope for change. I highly respect all of you for what you do and Darron Smith and Jeffrey Nielsen were even fired by the church, from BYU, for speaking out on racism and homosexuality respectively.
Of course Grant Palmer was disfellowshipped and remains so to this day or at least when he did his podcast with you. Even more ironically, as Grant Palmer said in your interview, the BYU bookstore continues to sell the very book(I couldn't verify that online at least), that got him into a "court of love" in the first place, not to mention that Deseret book sold it for 2 years.(Everyone calls me a liar over this)
Proof Deseret bookstore sold Grant Palmer's book
So, in other words, his books are good enough to PROFIT from, but he must be disciplined for writing such a destructive, faith demoting book? The hypocrisy of Mormonism makes me sick, it really does.
Also, even though Darron Smith was fired from BYU for his book "Black and Mormon", Deseret book and the BYU bookstore still sell his book, the last time I checked. What hypocrisy eh? Pathetic!! So, they can sell his book at the university, where he is no longer worthy to teach at!!
Black and Mormon at BYU currently
Black and Mormon currently at Deseret Book
So in other words John, I think you are hoping that one day the Mormon church hierarchy will become open and honest about everything or even somethings, but I'm telling you; you have a long wait ahead, like ALL ETERNITY.
Someday Bednar will probably be the Prophet and he called Hinckley's suggestion that women should only wear "one earring" a "Prophet's pleading" and then in his famous BYU speech(which he and his wife had given previously at BYU Idaho), promotes couples in love to break up, by the man dumping the woman, because she won't obey the "Prophet's pleading" to remove that 2nd or 3rd earring.
He of course reminds us that "it was never about the earrings", rather 100% obedience to the Prophet, no questions asked. He's the junior and youngest Apostle for a reason, which is that they want extreme fanatics, like themselves, to carry on the tradition and that's why he was called. That's the future of Mormonism John and it ain't ever gonna change, sorry to say, in my opinion.
Like Marlin K. Jensen(first quorum of the Seventy) said in the Nightline interview regarding homosexuality; "gender is an essential characteristic of our identity, the family and marriage are essential to God's plan for our lives and the eventual destiny of his children and I...IF THE SUN NO LONGER SHINES, I CAN'T SEE IN GODS WORLD THAT WILL EVER CHANGE."
So, I would say that statement about "if the sun no longer shines, I can't see in God's world that will ever change", would apply to 99.9% of the issues that John and I bring up, if not 100%.
Also, if they ever become open and honest about all the things we know about, that would destroy the church right to its core and the little fairy tale/fantasyland they've created over the last 187 years(of the perfect church with infallible leaders, that can't lead the church astray), would be gone forever and so would many of its members.
Anyway John, I do admire what you are trying to do and I give you an A for effort, but unfortunately, I know the Mormon Hierarchy want nothing to do with your openness and honesty and never will. I'm still frankly surprised that you haven't been hauled into a "court of love" and excommunicated for your efforts, which are 100% in opposition to the mission of the Hierarchy and EVERYTHING they stand for.
Maybe they are just afraid of the PR nightmare it would create, if they were to excommunicate you. I mean hey, if they did, can you all imagine the next podcast John would put out, reaching countless thousands? It would be a disaster!!
It was just like Thomas Murphy of Washington that wrote a book discussing racism and debunking The Book of Mormon, based on DNA and how his Stake President, Matthew Latimer, wussed out(I'm sure after a call from Salt Lake) and canceled his "court of love", due to too much publicity and the rallies that were being staged all over the country, including Salt Lake and the church parking lot of where his court was to be held.
Yeah, they promptly canceled his court and to my knowledge, have left him alone ever since. So, you see, these so called all powerful men can be intimidated and scared into leaving us alone, if they feel the backlash, publicity and PR will be too destructive for the church. In other words, we are bullying the bully and we all know how bullies hate to be punched in the nose and the church will run home crying if we do.
I Just want to say to all you Mormon Truth followers out there, that even though you also can't understand why John stays active in the Mormon church; just be grateful that he has the courage to buck the system and expose the truth publicly and be honest.
It must drive the Hierarchy nuts that there are people like John and myself out here; one an active Mormon, one a former active Mormon, that are friend and that are both exposing the same basic things. It just makes the Hierarchy look really bad, is embarrassing to them and makes it hard for the apologists to pick a fight with both of us.
I mean who's lying here? Am I lying or is John? If I'm lying, then so is John, or if John's lying, than so am I. And, the delicious irony in what I just said, is...what would John's motive be for lying, since he's still active and loves the church? I get called a liar all the time and I know that John gets attacked too and asked "if he's really a member", etc, but logically, we can't both be lying, right? It doesn't make any sense!!
Yeah, Salt Lake...you have a big, huge problem, don't you? So, if they go after one of us, they have to go after both of us, or go after neither of us. They can't pick and choose, when two guys, from opposite sides of the fence, are saying a lot of the same exact things.
This is precisely why Mormonism can't ever come clean and be honest. If they say what John says is true, then they are also saying that what I'm saying is true and that would look very very bad.
To my knowledge John, you are the "one and only" active(that hasn't been punished yet) Mormon out there, in the world, exposing and speaking honestly about the same things that us ex-Mormons are. That is why many of us in the ex-Mormon community respect you so much for what you do. We may have to separate at that point, but that is what we have in common with you.
For those that think us ex-Mormons or John are taking the easy way out, you have your heads lodged somewhere very dark. Just think about it; it would be so much easier for John and myself to say nothing, just live our lives quietly and not create controversy. Think about all the extra free-time we'd have...damn, that would be nice, but we're willing to give that up for truth and honesty.
What is so damn easy about what we're doing? If anything, it makes our lives a living hell at times and makes a lot of people hate our guts and I've been called every name in the book, as John probably has. There's nothing easy about this path and it's an insult for anyone out there to insinuate that "we took" or "are taking the easy path", due to some huge sin and not wanting to confess or something. You'd have to be an idiot to truly believe that, honestly!!
Also, I just want to point out to everyone reading this, that another reason John is so valuable, is that he gets interviews that I could never get. I tried to get Darron Smith months before he appeared on John's show, sent him multiple Emails, but never got an answer back.
Darron Smith is the main reason I started my journey and I really wanted to interview him and thank him. I told him that I'd change the format, would go by his rules, would be very respectful, stick to the subject matter, etc, but he never responded and I understand why and don't blame him at all.
We all have to understand that coming on a very strong anti-Mormon podcast, would not be good for someone like Darron Smith, who wants to remain active in the church and still believes it's true, despite his problems with the racist history and teachings.
The same goes for Grant Palmer or Jeffrey Nielsen, or any current member, who wants to remain a member. That's where John Dehlin comes into the picture and bridges the gap and allows them to tell their story in a pretty neutral, safe place, that won't tarnish them or further endanger them or their families, of further public church punishment or ridicule.
So, thanks John for getting the interviews that us ex-Mormons could probably never get!! I just wanted everyone here to get the big picture of why I'm so grateful for what John does.
What John is doing, is invaluable to us here in the ex-Mormon community, regardless of John's personal religious beliefs or continuing church attendance and affiliation.
Let's also not forget that it was John who created the power-point presentation , primarily for active Mormons(in my opinion), to help them understand why us ex-Mormons leave in the first place and why so many of us are so damn pissed off and feel so much pain.
Nobody else in the Mormon community, especially in the church Hierarchy, would EVER produce such a thing, as they don't give a rat's ass about us and they've already told the world what dirty rotten scumbags we are, that Satan runs our lives, that we are all "anti-Christs", "disease germs", "full of darkness" and that all members should "run from us as fast as they can."
Well, I've said all that I've gotta say for now and I'm sorry John if I've misrepresented you or what you believe in anyway, as that wasn't my intent(I'm sure you know that), as I'm just sharing my perspectives and I'm very grateful for what you've done, are doing and will do in the future.
In fact, I'm sure that many in the Mormon community(i.e. the Mormon Hierarchy), wish that John Dehlin would just go away and never come back and never be heard from again. If we were back in Briggies day, we'd both be dead, literally!! Mormon God bless the blood atonement doctrine, right?
Take care guys,
Samuel the Utahnite
Hello Samuel,
ReplyDeleteI think I can understand both your and John Dehlin's viewpoint.
Some time ago, I had a similar experience you had when you recognized that the LDS church is false.
But I made the experience with Christianity as a whole.
There are many similarities. As FAIR correctly points out with regard to the film "The Bible vs. the BoM", the bible faces exactly the same problems about its historicity as the BoM does.
Many stories in the bible are scientifically disproved.
- Living beings were not created during a few days, but developed throughout millions of years.
- Today's scientists agree that there was never a global flood, but only small local floods in restricted areas.
- Instead of Israel as a whole, probably only a small group around the charismatic Mose fled from Egypt, a group much smaller than the biblical 600 thousand men + family.
- There was no census going on in the year 4 BC, the first census was held approximately 8 AD. So at least one birth story of Jesus is faked, probably both.
- We have contradicting accounts both of Jesus' resurrection and of Paul's vision. If Joseph Smith is rejected because of contradicting visions, so must be St. Paul. And Saint Paul was the major developer of Christian theology, changing the religion from a work-based to a faith-based one.
(This is where the LDS church stepped back).
Many christian churches, especially conservative ones, nevertheless play the same game the LDS church plays:
Hiding the true history and instead promoting the simplified message that the bible is a historical account.
By doing this, these churches are as harmful as the LDS church is.
And many of these churches are as discriminating against blacks, homosexuals or other minorities as the LDS church does.
After recognizing that Christianity is not true, I have looked for alternatives and found Buddhism.
Since then, I have explored this religion which is based in science and experience and found it much more helpful and less harmful,
because it tries to see reality as it is, instead of suppressing reality and promoting a lie.
Moreover, understanding Buddhism also deepened my understanding of Christianity.
Often, the message of the Buddha and Jesus coincided. Both taught non-violence. Both taught humility.
Jesus, seen from a Buddhist point of view, was a good (though not perfect) teacher.
So, how do I see that most people in my surrounding are Christians and believing what I have recognized to be a lie.
I have to live with it and make the best out of it.
Although i wished more people would start a journey to the Truth, a journey based on experience, not blind faith
(one of the principles of Buddhism is NOT to rely on blind faith, but only what you have recognized to be good by direct experience, that should be followed!), I have to accept that the western world is culturally formed by Christianity.
I can understand both of your views:
On the one hand, we have to live in a society, we cannot change the society as a whole in a snap of a finger.
On the other hand, we cannot deny what we have learnt, we cannot deny our identity, an identity which is not based on the naive and narrowminded beliefs our neighbors hold.
And maybe, if we stand to our view, society will change, slowly, but steadily.
Maybe the LDS church will become more realistic and open about its history. John is a good example of a member being open and honest. Maybe more and more Mormons will become like this.
Maybe Christianity as a whole will become more tolerant towards other religions, especially towards Islam. Currently, both religions create a lot of tensions instead of making us live together in harmony and peace.
(Actually, when Pope Benedict held his speech where he defamed Muhammed, which resulted in a nun in Somalia being shot, was the time when I decided to leave my Christian church!)
I for myself have decided to leave behind what I have found out to be wrong, and change my religion, even if being a Buddhist is still exotic in our society.
So maybe both approaches are possible and good:
-Renewing the Church from within to create a better one.
-Leaving the Church out of protest against its bad sides.
Both alternatives lead to a better world. A world in which an intolerant and fanatic church has less importance, and a world in which the Church changes from within to become less fanatic and more open and honest.
I believe that both of you are right, although you basically promote the exact opposites.
Maybe, it is like the Ying and Yang in Taoism. Nothing can go without its opposite (hey, didn't Joseph Smith teach that in the BoM? Actually a passage I liked in the generally boring book).
Good luck for both of you,
Chris.
Hi Chris,
ReplyDeleteThat was an excellent comment. I have noticed a general trend... Most people who leave Mormonism also leave Christianity. Those who leave Christianity often become Buddhists. Of course, there are exceptions but from what I have seen, this is the most common.
I have found myself drawn to Buddhism myself. Although I have not made any formal study of the religion, what I do know of it, I appreciate.
Unfortunately, I highly doubt if the church will ever come clean about their history. If they do, it completely undermines their claim as infallable prophets. Ironically, not coming clean also undermines them. At least if they keep their history secret, it undermines them to a small degree and to a smaller percentage of their members.
I hope you'll stick around and comment often Chris.
Hi everybody.
ReplyDeleteSorry for crossposting, but this might be interesting to you as well.
I posted a comment over on Eric Hoffman's blog.
In his blog entry, he complained that Deseret Books, which recently bought its opponents, is all about the money.
While I would agree on this topic, I complained in my comment that his own church, Calvary Chapel, has similar financial obscurities, and he shouldn't complain about the Mormon Church, when his own church does not act one iota differently. However, my comment "magically" disappeared.
To ensure this won't happen again, I will post a "security copy" here. And it might also be of interest to you what other "sects" are doing. So here is my letter to Mr. Hoffman:
Dear Mr. Eric Hoffman,
As my previous post somehow vanished from your blog, I have to repost it.
When I read your blog entry concerning deseret books being all about the money, I had quite a laugh.
Of course, mixing church affairs with financial affairs is a bad thing to do. However, what made me laugh is that you, Mr. Hoffman, on the one hand condemn financial affairs within the LDS church, while on the other hand, your own church, namely Calvary Chapel, has the very same problems.
Just to share one example for this:
Calvary Chapel is also into big money, especially with its ownership of several radio stations. These are subsumed under the name Calvary Satellite Networks.
In the year 2000, Calvary took over control over KLYT, a radio station located in Albuquerque.
I quote from the wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLYT:
Even with the show of continued community support, Paul Saber, chairman of the Christian Broadcasting Academy's board (as well as a member of Calvary Chapel of Albuquerque's board), spearheaded an effort to have KLYT and its assets "gifted" to the Calvary Chapel of Albuquerque.
Non-Calvary members of the board were in the minority during the station's transfer process. A number of local Christian leaders lamented the single-church takeover of a station that had operated for 25 years by a network of Evangelical churches from a variety of denominations. The Christian Broadcasting Academy was dissolved, and Calvary-Albuquerque took over KLYT and its network of translators on January 1, 2001.
KLYT's facilities were combined with those of the church's commercial radio station, KNKT-FM.
Since its transfer, KLYT's funding has come from the church's tithing and donations, as well as from the sale of merchandise related to Heitzig and the network of Calvary Chapel churches around the country."
A full webpage which documents misuse of tithing and donations can be found here:
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/CC-empire
All in all I would suggest that before complaining about financial issues in the Mormon Church, which are blamable, you should take a look at your own church which is in no means blameless.
Calvary Chapel has quite a bad reputation with regard to responsibility, especially concerning financial issues.
Dear Mr. Hoffman, please stop being so biased. Either you are opposed to misuse of money, then you should complain about the Chuck Smith Empire in the same way you accuse the LDS church to be all about the money, or you ignore both of their misbehavior. But of course, you are blind when it comes to your "prophet".
To make sure this article will not be deleted again, I will post a "security copy" on the website
"Mormon truth" by Samuel the Utahnite.
Greetings,
Donald Schweitzer.
I sure loved these podcasts by John Dehlin despite his stance on the LDS church. I simply cannot understand why he stays in it. But despite my confusion, I will say he is very respectful of people, which I admire.
ReplyDeleteI like the topics he will tackle. I have been a bit rude about his steadfastness in remaining in the LDS church because I think it is a big crock. But apparently HE doesn't think that, so I should try to be as respectful to him as he has been to others.
I guess he sees some good in it. I do not want to see any good in it. That is stupid, I know. but there is so much bad in it that I think it should all be dumped.
I will say John's podcasst have helped me to understand more of the history and beliefs. I do appreciate that a lot. He does a fantastic job in his interviews.
Thanks John Dehlin if you are out there.