Sunday, April 29, 2007

Van Hale Will Be Broadcasting His Interview With Helen Whitney Today, Who Is The Writer, Producer & Director Of The Mormon PBS Documentary.

MP3 File

As much as I hate to advertise Van Hale's program, due to my very low opinion of him and the very deceitful way he deals with people, specifically how he dealt with me and posted all of our private correspondence, without permission, that put me in a bad light, leaving out the last Email(which I asked him to post with no response whatsoever) I sent him, which exposed and put him in a bad light; I felt that I needed to let all Mormon Truth readers out there know that he was going to broadcast his interview with Helen Whitney today, who is the driving force behind the Documentary on Mormons, that will air on PBS tomorrow, April 30 and May 1.

I'm sure that it will be somewhat of a love fest between the 2, as Van Hale is a hopeless, pathetic, Mormon apologist and Helen Whitney seems smitten by the Mormon cult in the interviews she's done so far. Maybe she'll get baptized Mormon and Van Hale can baptize her?

However, I'm sure Van Hale will be outraged at any negative points in the documentary and eager to explain it all away with his typical brand of nonsense and deceit that he spews weekly. So, maybe this interview will suck big time and be of no value whatsoever, but at least you guys will know about it and have the chance to listen to it if you so chose.

Here is part of what was included in the weekly Email I get from Van Hale, the pathetic, deceitful, Mormon apologist, regarding this show:

Mormon Miscellaneous World-Wide Talk Show

Date: Sunday, 29 April 2007

Subject: I will be discussing the two part PBS movie "The Mormons" which will air 30 April and 1 May. Helen Whitney, the producer, director and writer will not be with me live, but I will be recording an interview 28 April which I will broadcast 29 April.

She is a film maker for PBS who has spent 3 years making this film. A DVD was sent to me to preview. While there are some points with which I would disagree, I was very favorably impressed with it and recommend it as a worthwhile documentary on Mormon history and belief. It deals with a number of controversial topics including: Mormon beginnings, problems in Kirtland, Missouri and Nauvoo, polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and Mormon dissidents. Other topics include: the westward trek, transition from the 19th to the 21st century, the missionary system, welfare program, the response to Katrina, and LDS growth in Africa.

Personally, I would describe it as educational, moving, even-handed and overall, very positive. Whitney has crafted an informative and moving work by weaving together narration, numerous interviews with a number of authors, experts and students of Mormonism representing various perspectives, with many pictures and film clips.

From the PBS summary at "...the film will explore the richness, the complexities, and the controversies of the Mormons' story as told through interviews with leaders and members of the church, with leading writers and historians, and with supporters and critics of the Mormon faith."

This site includes some comments and summary of the program, a 6 minute trailer, and information to find the stations and times where "The Mormons" can be viewed. In Utah it will be broadcast on both KBYU and KUED, 30 April and 1 May at 8:00 pm.

Time: 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST

Host: Van Hale

Radio Station: KTKK 630 AM, Salt Lake City

Live Internet Streaming Audio can be accessed at: or mms://
Salt Lake Call-in Number: 254-5855.
Outside of Salt Lake Number: 801-470-5855.

Internet Participation: Questions and response via email during the program are welcomed at


Anyway, for those that do listen to the interview, I'll look forward to your opinions. I'll also be doing a post just for the documentary, where everyone will be able to comment separately on that.

Samuel the Utahnite

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Friday, April 27, 2007

Chatting With A Mormon Missionary!! Taylor Said: "When Faced With The Two Options, Either Unfaithfulness To God, Or Death, It Is Better To Die."


First I wanted to give a shout out to Demon of Kolob, for letting me know about this "chatting with a missionary" option(just click "ask a question" in the upper right hand corner), since it's something I've been wanting to do for a very long time. I'm guessing this is something fairly new and I encourage all of you ex-Mormons out there to take advantage of it.

The busier we keep these clowns, dealing with us anti/ex-Mormons, the less time they have to lie and deceive the honest and sincere people of the world, that don't know they are being bamboozled and deceived at every turn.

I will gladly post transcripts of everybody's experiences, which should be fun. Just drop me an Email if you too have a conversation with the missionaries, that is worth reporting and you want me to post it.

Also, for those that want to speak to a live Mormon missionary, over the phone, you simply call 1-888-537-6600 (in U.S. and Canada only).

At the bottom of the page, it says:

"This feature(the chat or calling them) is not intended for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to contact Church headquarters. Church members should discuss questions or personal matters with their local leaders." (So, I would harass the shit out of them as often as we can.)

Anyway, this is the transcript of the conversation and I'm also doing an audio version of this experience for a new podcast, reading the transcript and adding my comments and thoughts. I'll post the audio both here and on my Mormon Truth Uncensored Podcast, which you can all easily subscribe to and download through iTunes.

Also, once you click to chat with a missionary, a disclaimer pops up to say that the people you are speaking with "don't speak for the church." So, who are they speaking for and who do they represent? Do they have JWs or Catholic Priests doing the chats or what? Give me a break!! What's the point of chatting with them, if you're and investigator and they "don't speak for the Mormon church." In other words, they are completely WORTHLESS!!

Of course, it's just the Mormon Hierarchy's way of covering their ass once again, while using incompetent, clueless, brainwashed, lying missionaries to do their dirty, filthy work of shame.

I mean hell, The Journal of Discourses aren't official(but often quoted in General Conference), Conference talks aren't official scripture anymore, Official Mormon History books aren't even official, Dead Prophets and their teachings are worthless shit now(unless quoted in General Conference of course)...because it's all about the living Prophet, kissing his ass, thanking God for a "Prophet", etc, etc. What a joke and what a damn, pathetic cult!!

To me, this whole chat thing is a sign of their desperation and it's already backfiring big time. I wonder how long before they end it? Was this Danny Boy and the More Good(BULLSHIT) Foundation's idea? Oh, I forgot, he doesn't even work for the church at all and they don't pay him for his apologetic studies bad. Yep, everyone at FARMS works completely free, like a calling to clean shitters or something, right? I mean hey, when the modern day Moses calls.......

Anyway, this was my experience with Taylor, the Mormon missionary, from earlier today. Enjoy everyone!!

Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.


Hey Taylor, are you a missionary?


Thank you for contacting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. How May I Help You?


Yes, I am.


I'm 32, just moved to Utah from California and all my neighbors are Mormon and they're talking to me a lot about the church, if I want to talk to the missionaries, take the discussions, etc. I have 2 children under the age of 7 and a neighbor gave me a copy of The Miracle Of Forgiveness, that was written by Spencer Kimball, who was a former Mormon Prophet, right? Since then I've been reading the book and doing extensive research and I'm very troubled by what I'm finding.


I'm always hearing how much Mormons love people, teach about families, etc, but according to this awful book, it's true then that the Mormon Church truly believes and teaches that you're literally better off dead than immoral?


Yes, Spencer W. Kimball was a Prophet. What's troubling you?


Kimball says that in the case of a woman being raped, that "it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." So, in other words, if a woman is raped and lived, she didn't fight hard enough? She is actually better off dead? Would the 2 Mormon sister missionaries that were brutally raped at gunpoint, (one was actually shot) in South Africa a while back, be "better off dead", because they didn't actually die that day and lived through their horrific rape that lasted for hours.


this hurts me.


I can't imagine wishing that my daughter, wife, sister or friend was dead.


Another former Mormon Prophet, David O. McKay is quoted in this book as having taught:"...Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with not permit yourselves to be led into temptation...."


I think you might be misunderstanding what was meant by President Kimball.


Is this true? I can't believe this is for real and I find it horrifying!


What am I seems pretty clear to me.


We know that victims of rape are innocent.


The other quotes support my interpretation.


He actually says they are innocent "if she has not cooperated" and "contributed to the foul dead." So how does a woman contribute to "being RAPED?"


I'm looking at the book right now and typing exactly what he said.


If they are innocent, how could they make the Rape happen and be better off giving up their lives fighting off the rapist?


It makes no sense at all.


I also found another very disturbing quote that was taught by a former Mormon Apostle, that supports these comments:


Obviously a woman does not contribute to being raped. These prophets are stressing that if there is a way out of a compromise then they should take it.


They are trying to emphasize the importance of chastity that when compromising situtations occur they should expend all their efforts.


Bruce R. McConkie the former Mormon Apostle taught:"Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - BETTER DEAD CLEAN, THAN ALIVE UNCLEAN. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: 'I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.'"


Would your parents and family, rather see you come home dead, in a pine box, than immoral? I sure hope not!! That is sick and disturbing in my opinion and I'm just blown away by these teachings and disgusted.


Again, everything I'm quoting to you, says that opposite of what you're saying. You may believe what you are saying, but it's obvious that the Mormon Prophets and Apostles do not believe as you do and believe exactly what I've quoted.


Do you personally believe this? I think these teachings are pure evil and would lead the youth or anyone to depression and suicidal thoughts and even suicide. What do you think?


The point is, being true to God and being True to the faith is more important than willfully giving up. There are situations where a person can do nothing about what is happening and that case God will take care of things.

So, you do agree with Kimball? You would want a loved one in your family to fight the rapist and die, then to play dead, let him rape her and live? Is that what you're saying? I hope it isn't, but you seem sympathetic to this teaching.


This is some awful stuff man, it really is and I think about my young daughter and I can't imagine wishing her dead, EVER.


I don't know how anyone can defend it in the name of God or their church...I really don't. Do you have kids? Do you hope they die if they are attacked or that they do what it takes to live? I just don't get it at all.


***Well I don't think the teachings of the Church would lead anyone to suicide or depression if they follow the teachings. I would never wish either of these things on anyone.***


So a woman that is raped, can actually be committing a sin, if she doesn't fight hard enough and she is literally "better off dead?"


Also I believe these prophets were referring to adultery not rape in this book.


No, not at all. These prophets are just emphasizing the importance of morality. The rapist victim is never at fault.


I disagree...if a young person is raped or has sex and then they read this book and the horrible quotes in it, that would easily lead to depression and possibly suicide, especially in a very impressionable young person. You can't see that?


The church teaches that and ***it has programs to help those who have been raped or suffered any kind of mental or physical suffering.***


Actually, as I said above, Kimball actually says they are innocent "if she has not cooperated" and "contributed to the foul dead." So how does a woman contribute to "being RAPED?"


What kind of programs...."better off dead" programs?


She doesn't contribute.


Well, I guess you disagree with your former Prophet Kimball then, which I'm glad to hear.


***Let me transfer you to someone else. Just a second....*** (I then sat there for about 5 minutes waiting, after saying the comments below, that I didn't want anyone else. It was obvious that they were moving me to the 2nd or 3rd level of contact, since I was blowing the mind of the pathetic level one missionary. I'm pretty sure that they changed missionaries on me at this point.)




I don't want to talk to anyone else?




Let me ask you friend tells me that General Conferences are considered scripture and he invited me to watch the last Conference with his family, which I did. Is it true that what they say is considered scripture?


You can't or don't want to answer my questions anymore?


Yes, what the prophets and apostles teach are received by revelation, and are considered God's word for us today. What did you think of what they said?


They said a lot of good things and I learned a lot. I noticed they really stressed tithing and forgiveness. I really loved the talk by one of the apostles about cucumbers and how they become pickles...that seemed very inspired.


I am glad that you enjoyed what you heard. What did you feel as they spoke?


But the reason that I ask if Conference talks are considered scripture, is because, while doing my research of Miracle of forgiveness and the quotes, former Mormon Prophet Heber J. Grant was quoted regarding this "better off dead" teaching and doctrine and I traced the quote to a Mormon General Conference in 1944, from the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, which would be considered scripture, right?


Well, I'll assume that it is considered scripture and He said: "There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her virtue-realizing that virtue is of more value than anything else in all the wide world."


***Virture is of more value than anything in the world, including life itself.*** Before you get excited about that let me explain.

Samuel: are just confirming everything I've been quoting, you really are.


Let me try and explain it to you, if you don't mind.




Go ahead


We should never willfully compromise our own standards, and when able, to remain true to God and His commandments.


I know you are going to explain it, but why would I want to join a church that teaches me and my children, that they are better off dead than immoral? As I said above, I find this incredibly evil, vile and destructive. I hear the suicide rates are very high in Utah, would this be why? Are people killing themselves, because the Mormon Prophets and Apostles have told them to, even in General Conference talks? Can you help me understand this? Do you believe it yourself?


I am trying to help you. Please listen to what I have to say.


So, in cases were we are faced with death, rape or immorality, we should choose death?


Sorry, I'm just so upset and angry about this


I understand.


Let me give you an example.




When a woman is enticed by someone and submits to him having the opportunity to escape or to decline, then it isn't a true rape situation. It is that situation President Kimball is talking about. When there is a choice, we should always choose to be clean.


Now, most rapes, are not that case.


Women are physically forced.


The trauma itself numbs them to their situation. They have no will in those situations. They are innocent, and are the victims.


Yeah, but he says point blank:


"it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."


What constitutes a struggle? Only God is the judge of that.


Plus all of the other quotes I've given you, stating that you are better off dead clean, that alive unclean and that any Mormon Parents would rather see their son or daughter dead in a pine box, than immoral. Do you agree with these highly disturbing teachings?


"Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: 'I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.'"


Being unclean is referring to wilfully submitting and compromising standards.


It does not refer to those who have attempted in vain. Again, God is the judge of that.


Even your current Prophet Hinckley, in 1969, reiterated this teaching, when he talked to a soldier in Vietnam, and he told Hinckley that his Mother would rather he come home dead than immoral. Hinckley agreed...


You are misunderstanding what is meant by being immoral.


Okay, well, what if you have a kid or a friend or loved one that goes out and has sex with someone, willingly...are they better off dead?


I understand perfectly what is meant by immoral. I'm 32 and a father of 2 and you don't think I know what immoral means? That's fairly insulting, it really is.


Samuel I apologize, I did not mean to offend you.


No problem...I'm just saying that you don't have to be a Mormon or a genius, to know what Immoral means....I think most people in the world understand's not some new term.


The point is, that the standards and commandments and being faithful to God, is more important than life itself. When it is it a clear choice between life, and being faithful to God, it is better to be faithful to God. The reason for this, is we believe in a life after death! This life is not the end.


Those that die being faithful to God, are received by God.


Most of us, however will fortunately never face that situation.


So this life doesn't matter that much, because we'll live on the other side? I'd like for you to tell that to someone that has lost a child or a loved one.


I didn't say that this life was not worth much. I said our faithfulness to God is worth more.


That shows you how important it is to be faithful to God!


I also read in the September 1981 Ensign, in the message from the Prophet:

"You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this."


Life is very important!


"Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself."


Samuel, being chaste is being faithful to God, in that sense it is more important than life. A woman raped, is not unchaste.


So, the conclusion I'm reaching here, is that you and your Mormon Church and leaders, do indeed believe that people are better off dead or in a pine box, than immoral...this saddens me greatly, being a Christian man. I don't know how any church could teach these awful things and it certainly isn't from Christ, that's for sure!!

(The meltdown now begins for Taylor)


Samuel, I think you are missing the point and are taking this way out of context. We seem to be going in circles.


I've given you how many quotes stating this? 5? I mean it's undeniable and not a religion that I want any part of and I will spread this word to others, because it is so wrong and outright evil.


I'm taking it out of context?




Do I need to re-post each quote and let you respond to each one?


***When faced with the two options, either unfaithfulness to God, or death, it is better to die.*** (BINGO!!)


That is what is meant.


If people are immoral, they can repent!


That is what the miracle of forgiveness is. Christ died and suffered so that those who make mistakes can indeed repent.


So, they are all saying it, you agree with it, but it doesn't mean what they are actually's something completely different? Who's talking in circles? I'm stating facts, things that I've found and read in Miracle of Forgiveness, an official Mormon book, from a former Prophet.


Yeah, but what if they are dead before they repent, because after reading that they "are better off dead in a pine box than immoral", they kill themselves in shame?


It's hard to believe that anyone would defend these teachings, it really is.

If it's all about Christ and what he did for us, why would they teach something so awful, when they can repent as you say?


Samuel, you are not listening to me.


People can repent in this life.


No, it is you that is not listening or using any common sense or decency.


Anyone who is immoral can repent!


My wife was raped when she was younger and I'm glad that she didn't die fighting off her rapist and now I read that Mormons believe she should be dead and I'm deeply offended as she is, rightfully so. He said what he said and he meant what he meant and it's disgraceful!!


When they speak of being immoral, they are speaking of sex, fornication, adultery, masturbation, etc, etc, and nothing else.


One other thing...why does Kimball teach on page 78, edition 19, that masturbation leads to group masturbation, which leads to homosexuality, which then has a "snowballing" effect and leads to bestiality? Do you believe this too?


I mean seriously, the deeper I dig on the Mormon religion, the uglier it gets and I'm shocked by what I'm finding. How could anyone believe this nonsense and such evil things like this.


Samuel, I am not goin to address this. I have tried to talk with you, but have not made any progress. ***I invite you to read the Book of Mormon(BINGO!!) and pray to God to know if it is true.***


Why won't you address my last question? What does the Book of Mormon have to do with any of this?


Will that answer all my questions that I've asked you? Does the Book of Mormon address the masturbation-group masturbation-homosexuality-bestiality teaching of your Prophet Kimball?


The Book of Mormon is a testament of Jesus Christ and is proof that God called Joseph Smith to be a prophet.


Why would I need to pray about any of this, when it's all so wrong and evil? Common sense tells me it's all false, especially with better off dead teachings.


So, what are you saying, if that's(the BOM) true, then everything else I've talked about today is true too?


Samuel, your interpretation of it might not be, but the what was original taught is.


So everything Kimball said is true...the quotes by McKay, McConkie, Grant, etc? It's all true?


My interpretation?


In their original intent, yes.'


Better off in a pine box dead? Give me another interpretation please...


I have tried to explain it to you, but you do not listen.


Actually, it is you who does not listen or have any common sense at all.


I tried, you refused to listen.


I wish you the best, and hope you have a wonderful day!


It is sad to see someone so blinded or brainwashed, to the point of actually wishing people were dead in a pine box, than immoral by Mormon standards. How can you defend these horrific teachings and feel good about yourself? This religion is a complete disgrace and so are you for defending it and these evil, vile should be ashamed of yourself Elder Taylor. These are the fruits of Mormonism and I will spread the word to everyone I can!!


Anyway, I'll just let you guys comment on this. Amazing isn't it, how very few of my questions or the quotes were even addressed and then in the end, it all came down to "I invite you to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to know if it is true." WTF?!!

The BOM had absolutely NOTHING to do with any of my questions at all. This shows what a pathetic cult they are. After reading other's chats with these missionaries, they all got the same exact response I did, no matter what they were bringing up and that was of course to read and pray about the Book of Mormon.

In other words, NOTHING any of us say even matters if the BOM is true. Joseph Smith can be a child rapist, a murderer, a thief, a pedophile, a fraudulent treasure hunter, an adulterer, a pervert, a polygamist, a liar, a fraud, etc, etc, but it doesn't matter, because if the BOM is true, Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God and the Mormon cult is the one and only true cult on earth.

So, intelligence, logic, common sense, facts, truth and reality have nothing to do with whether Mormonism is true, as it is STILL and ALWAYS HAS BEEN about that Goddamn burning bosom. What a joke and what an embarrassment for those that buy it and have ZERO ability to get out when they learn the truth and facts.

Nothing has changed since my mission and I wonder how long they can keep this bullshit racket going, since we are now living in the Internet and information age, where there are no more secrets and the truth regarding the fraud of Mormonism is EVERYWHERE and spreading fast, like that big rock, rolling through the earth that Mormons love to compare themselves to all the time.

At some point they, the Mormon cult Hierarchy, are going to have to change their modus operandi, or the Mormon cult will stagnate completely, only keeping those in membership, that have been brainwashed since birth. Considering their extremely poor retention rate now, that's about all they have at the moment anyway and it will only get worse.

In the very near future, I'm going to try to spread the "Mormon Truth" in Argentina even more than I and my friends already have and little by little, these other countries, province by province and town by town, are going to learn the "real truth" about Mormonism and get the hell out.

Keep up the great work all you ex-Mormons out there and let's help free those that are currently in bondage to this damn cult, that are questioning and help all the future converts, that are currently studying or will be studying with the Mormon missionaries not to join.

Thanks everyone for your continued support and all that you do!!

Samuel the Utahnite

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Thursday, April 12, 2007

Mark E. Peterson's Horrific Racist Speech At BYU-Why Hasn't Any Mormon Prophet, Since 1954, Apologized For, Condemned And Repudiated This Vile Racism?

This post is intended to be the one stop reading/research place for Mark E. Peterson's horrific racist talk(which the Mormon Hierarchy past or present has not apologized for or repudiated), which he gave at BYU in 1954. I wanted one place, where everyone could come and read the entire talk(including the last 3 paragraphs that were omitted from the pamphlet ), and save the scans of the "official pamphlet" that the Mormon Hierarchy created from the speech, along with the ability to download it in PDF format. This Speech is truly one of the most racist moments in Mormon history. A copy of this speech is kept at the BYU library in Provo, Utah.


Address By:

Elder Mark E. Petersen

Given At:

The Convention of Teachers of Religion On The College Level

Provo, Utah

August 27, 1954


The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last twenty years has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded, by some of the arguments that have been put forth.

It is a good thing to understand exactly what the Negro has in mind on this subject, I'll be talking about other races besides Negroes, of course,but it is the Negro question which pinpoints it, so I would like to talk first of all about the Negro and his civil rights. We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject any more than any other subject.

I would like to begin by quoting from an interview conducted by the United States News with Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., a very prominent Negro leader, and a member of the Congress of the United States. The United States News published this interview in its September, 1952 issue. That was before the Supreme Court decision, as you recall. Congressman Powell was asked a number of questions, and he answered them. The first question:

Q: "The question of civil rights in connection with segregation, Congressman Powell, opens up the often-mentioned subject of social equality, and I was wondering: What is the viewpoint of the leaders of the Negroes in this country today on the broad subject of social equality?"

A: "Of course, social equality is something that covers so many different things that it would have to be defined more closely."

Q. "Well, would you say that, in principle, the desire is for social equality?"

A: "No. I would say that there is a demand for social equality in all public places; any place that is operating publicly, regardless of what its nature may be should not have the right to refuse anyone. For a club or a


private institution, that may be another question."

Q. "But it would include hotels, restaurants and, of course, all forms of transportation?"

A. "That's right."

Q. "Would that mean the ending of segregation on the railroads in the South?"

A. "Yes, that would."

Q. "What is the status of that controversy? Is segregation on railroads now forbidden by law?"

A. "No, it is not forbidden in law. But, under Supreme Court rulings in the past years, there is no longer any segregation allowed in dining cars, no longer any allowed on buses in interstate transportation -"

Q. "What, about Pullmans?"

A. "This is an optional thing which the Pullman Company itself has been instituting. Nevertheless, now and then you will meet an individual Pullman conductor who interprets it on his own terms of bigotry. That, however, is rapidly changing. The only place still left is the so-called 'Jim Crow' car, and even that has been abolished on through trains leaving Northern cities."

Q. "What is the basic reason for the opposition to the ending of segregation?"

A. "I think it is just inherited public opinion of days past when the Negro was not as mature and educated and advanced as he is today -- and neither was the white man. I think a private poll would produce tremendous statistics supporting the fact that the vast majority of people in the South are changing, but they are afraid of having their views become public.

Q. "Is there any similar point of view in the North where there are large numbers of Negroes? Is any opposition manifest there to non-segregation?"

A. "Yes, indeed. I think that the problem is oho that is sort of leveling off and is no longer a strictly sectional problem -"

I will skip some now. Let us now go into the matter of intermarriage with the Negroes. I continue to read from this interview:

Q. "Do you think many of the people who oppose discontinuing


segregation are afraid breaking down of the social lines may lead to

A: "That is the great bugaboo used to scare them, when the truth is that when two people are in love - black, white, Jew, Gentile, Protestant, Catholic - no one can stop them."

Q. "What is the attitude of the Negro leaders toward the intermarriage question? Do they feel that it is the probability over a long period of time?"

A. "Yes, they do, but not as any conscious thing to go out and campaign for."

Q. "They think that, ultimately, inter-carriage will be commonplace in this country?"

A. "Personally, I do."

Q. "How far away would you say that is?"

A. Well, that is hard to say. I never thought India would be free in my lifetime, but today India is free. I didn't think that Africa would have a black Prime Minister, but they do today in the Gold Coast."

Q. "Do you think there is much inter-marriage today between whites and Negroes in this country?"

A. "No, very little. But is it the idea of the old sore thumb - it stands out so when it does happen."

Q. "Do you think that the presence of a good many Negro troops in Europe where there's been inter-marriage has affected the problem?"

A, "No, I don't, because I have just come back from an official five-month trip through Europe and the Near East, and there is no problem over there."

Q. "You mean inter-marriage is accepted?"

A. "Yes. They don't understand our fears here in America."

Q. "Do you think there is much intermarriage in Europe?"

A. "Oh, yes, a great deal."

Q. "Could you say in what countries it is more frequent? Is there a country that you could name?"

A. "No, I don't think I could say. I saw it all through Scandinavia. I saw it all through the Benelux countries in Italy."

Q. "But isn't it a small minority?"

A. "No, in comparison with the number of Negroes there, it was large."

Q. "In comparison with the number of intermarriages in the


United States, would you say that it was an equal or a greater number or a lesser number?"

A. "On a percentage basis there is no comparison. It is more prevalent abroad. In fact, the rare thing in Europe and England is to find a couple that is not an inter-racial marriage. I saw very few marriages of two Negro people."

Q. "It was mostly Negro and white?"

A. "That's right."

Q. "What is the attitude of the Negro in the United States on the subject of intermarriage? Is it discussed frequently in the press?"

A. "Yes, but on an objective basis. In fact, an increasingly large number of Negro leaders are marrying whites of extremely stable and respected families."

Q. "Is there much more fraternizing in the Northern cities between Negroes and whites, especially in the large Negro centers like Harlem, than there used to be?"

A. "Yes, much more."

Q. "Is there any tendency among the Negroes to reject that, or are they welcoming it?"

A. "They are very definitely welcoming it. An increasing number of fine leaders on both sides are marrying."

Q. "Is there in New York City a greater number of inter-racial marriages than there has been?"

A. "Yes, but interestingly, the largest number of inter-racial marriages occur in Milwaukee and Los Angeles.

Q. "To what do you attribute that?"

A. "I can't figure it out. Milwaukee has always been' a very liberal city. Los Angeles, however, I can't figure out at all."

Q. "What is the argument that is used by Negro leaders in answer to the point that is sometimes made that, if intermarriages continue in the next 25 or 30 years, then the races will be adulterated somewhat as they are in Cuba or Brazil?"

A. "I have heard that argument, but it doesn't amount to any argument at all from my standpoint, because if we are fighting for integration, well, then there it is. I mean, you can't fight segregation and want separation. We must be consistent."


Q. "I'm not sure that that is clear..."

A.. "The Negro leaders are fighting against segregation. Therefore, they can't have a position on one hand against segregation and on the other hand against inter-racial marriage."

Q. "What I meant was, do you believe that the quality of the white race would be reduced by intermarriage?"

A. "No. Anthropologists, like Boas of Columbia and the late Malinowsky of Yale and Hooten of Harvard, especially, have shown that such a thing would be a benefit; that is a scientific fact."

Q. "They contend that it would not change the quality of one race or the other?"

A. "That is correct - either not change it or actually improve the stock of both groups."

I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the oppor[t]unity of sitting down in a café where white people sit. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. From this and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not. be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that, we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that they used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace."

How different is the Chinese attitude on intermarriage: Sister Belle S. Spafford, President of the Relief Society, has been attending the conference of the International Council of Women in Europe, I asked her what she learned there about inter-racial marriages as affecting other races than the Negroes. She said there was one outstanding figure in the conference who expressed herself most emphatically on this subject. She was the Chinese representative, Matilda No, She is chairman of the Chinese council and heads the moral welfare section


of the I.O. and this is what she said:

"In Hong Kong there are two and one half million people living in very crowded conditions. The population has more than doubled during the past five years, bringing many serious social problems. The presence of so many men in the armed forces has also created social problems extremely difficult to handle. A large number of illegitimate children have been born to Chinese girls, fathered by men of other races who are in the armed services. Neither the Chinese or the whites will accept these children.

"The Chinese are bitterly opposed to Eurasian marriages or to marriages between Chinese and persons of any other race, even under the most favorable circumstances, and children born out of wedlock to Chinese mothers with white fathers are in a very difficult position. They have strong maternal instincts and traditions and because of this most of them make determined effort to keep their children, frequently turning to prostitution to support them."

What should be our attitude as Latter-day Saints toward Negro and other dark races? Does the Lord give us any guidance? Is there any Church policy in this matter? Is segregation in and of itself a wrong principle? Just where should we stand? Before going into this there are a few fundamentals that I would like to mention which, on which of course we must all be agreed.

1. God is the Creator. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

2. The purpose of His creation of this earth was to provide a habitation for His children.

3. God is just. He is fair. He is no respecter of persons.

4. We must accept the fact of pre-existence, and that in our pre-existence we had free agency. We could be lazy there or we could be industrious. We could be obedient or careless. We could choose to follow Christ or to follow Lucifer.


5. The Gospel is eternal. It is as eternal as God and He is the same yesterday, today and forever. His course is one eternal round.

6. The Lord has a definite method of dealing with both sinners and saints, based on the way we personally live. We shall be judged in accordance with our own acts. We shall be punished for our sins and not for Adam's transgression, nor for anybody else's transgression.

I like a quotation from Ezekiel very much. It is found in the 18th chapter beginning with the 4th verse:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die,
"But if a man be just and do that which is lawful and right, "And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the House of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbor's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
"And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
"He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
"Hath walked in my statues, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
"And if he begat a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to anyone of these things,
"And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife,
"Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination.
"Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? He shall not live: he hath done all these abominations, he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.


"Now, lo, if he begat a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,"That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the House of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbor's wife,
"Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
"That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statues; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
"As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
"Yet say ye, why? Doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statues, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity, of the son; the righteousness of the righteous, shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicket shall be upon him."

I think that is a marvelous statement of policy on the part of the Lord -- a great announcement of doctrine. Now I would like to come to the Ten Commandments for a moment: "I am the Lord thy God which hath brought thee out of the Land of Egypt, out of the House of Bondage. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow thyself down to them or serve them, for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."

I draw your attention to the fact that many people in


reading this scripture stop before the sentence stops. They think in terms of visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation -- period, and they forget that the Lord goes on and says, "of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments." This scripture clearly indicates that He shows mercy to those who love him and keep His commandments, but visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of them "that hate me". In other words, we reap what we sow. The soul that sinneth shall die. We will be punished for our own sins, but not for anybody else. We must accept that as a policy together with the thought that God is just to everybody, and that the gospel is the same yesterday, today, and

7. Since the gospel is eternal and God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and since He is dealing with the same group of spirits, meaning you and me and the rest of us on earth, both in the pre-existent state as well as here, is there any reason why the Lord's method of dealing with sinners and saints in the pre-existence should be different from his method of dealing with them here?

8. For sins we commit here, we will be given places in the eternal world, in the celestial, terrestrial, and the telestial kingdoms, and as one star differeth from another in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead. There will be wide variations of classifications in the hereafter, all based on our performance here in this life.

9. Is there any reason to think that the same principle of rewards and punishments did not apply to us and our deeds in the pre-existent world as will apply hereafter? Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life?
We must accept the justice of God. He is fair to all. He is not a respector of persons. He will meet to us according to what we deserve.With that in mind, we can account in no other way


for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. There are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, regarding all according to their deeds.

I would like to read to you now from The Way to Perfection, by President Joseph Fielding Smith. I believe the chapters in this book, three of them primarily, provide the best statement of our inter-racial position that I know anything about, and I certainly highly recommend them to you. I will begin to read under a section:
"Preassignement to nation or tribe:"

"Our place among the tribes and nations evidently was assigned to us by the Lord. That there was an assignment of this kind before earth life began is a declaration of the scriptures. Certain spirits were chosen to come through the lineage of Abraham, and this choice was made in the beginning. Other selections were also made, and the nations determined upon by the councils in the heavens. When Paul was speaking on Mars Hill, he said to the Athenians, 'Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious, for as I passed by and beheld your devotions, I found an alter with this inscription, 'To the unknown God.' Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth dwelleth not in temples made with hands, neither is worshipped with men's hands as though he needed anything. Seeing He giveth to to all life and breath and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men, for to dwell on the face of the earth, and hath determined the
times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation."

If the Lord appointed unto the nations the bounds of their habitation, then there must have been a selection


of spirits to form these nations. And I think we must recognize that. Here must have been a selection of spirits to form these nations. In greater clearness, Moses has declared the same thing. President Smith quotes from Deuteronomy next:

"Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations. Ask thy Father and He will show thee, thy elders, and they will tell thee when the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance. When He departed the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel, for the Lord's portion is His people. Jacob is the lot of His inheritance." That is Deuteronomy 32.

"If bounds were set according to the number of the children of Israel, and they were the Lord's portion - that is those with whom He made covenant, when the Lord divided the sons of Adam it must have been done before this earth life began, for in these days of old when this division was made-, the nation of Israel had not been brought into existence on the earth."

"Is it not a reasonable belief that the Lord would select the most choice spirits to come to the better grades of nations? Is it not reasonable to believe that less worthy spirits would come through less favored lineage? Does this not account in very large part for the various grades of color and degrees of intelligence we find in the earth? Is not the Lord doing the best that can be done in accordance with the laws of justice and mercy for the people of the earth? In His mercy He has a salvation with some degree of exaltation even for the heathen and for those who die without law. However, we must not be unmindful of the fact that these wor[l]dly conditions have also been brought about in large degree by rebellion and disregard of the laws of God in this life. Retrogression has come upon mankind because they have rejected the counsels and commandments of the Almighty. Advancement has come largely because man has been willing to walk, in part at least, in the light of divine inspiration."

Now, I have always been interested in Jeremiah's own statement, that is quoting the Lord, of course, for the Lord


tells Jeremiah that before He formed him in the belly He knew him and chose Him to be a prophet unto the nations. Why was Jeremiah chosen before he was born? Because along with all of the rest of us, in the pre-existent life, he had his free agency. He had the right to go with Lucifer if he wanted to. He had the right to be lazy or industrious or he had the right to study the gospel and come with full allegiance to the banner of the Savior. Because he came with full allegiance to the banner of the Savior and was loyal, and because he developed himself both in faith and otherwise in the pre-existent life, he came to a point of development where the Lord was glad to have him as one of His leaders, and so He chose him for one of His prophets even before he came into the world.

You remember the vision of Abraham when he was shown the spirits of certain great ones, and the Lord told him, "Abraham, thou art one of them." Why were those spirits chosen above anybody else? Is the Lord a respector of persons? Again it was a reward based upon performance in the pre-existent life, and people who came in the lineage of Abraham received their blessing because of their performance in the pre-existent life, and because of their performance in the pre-existent life others obviously were given some other birth. I think this statement of Brother Smith's here is wonderful.

Another paragraph in the next chapter, under "Traits developed in the world of spirits", says" "In the parable of the talents, the Lord makes use of this very significant expression, 'for the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country who called his own servants and delivered unto them his good, and unto one he gave five talents, to another two and to another one. To ever man according to his several ability.' Without doubt, these characteristics were born with us, in other words, we developed certain traits of character in the world of spirits before this earth life began. In that life, some were more diligent in the performance of duty, some were more obedient and more faithful in keeping the commandments. Some were more intellectual and others manifested


stronger traits of leadership than others. Some showed greater faith and willingness to serve the Lord, and from among these the leaders were chosen. Because of this condition, the Lord said to Abraham, 'These I will make my leaders for He stood among those that were spirits and He saw that they were good and He said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them. Thou wast chosen before thou wast born.' There must be leaders, presiding officers, and those who are worthy and able to take command.
"During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability or the lack of it, but were also where such progress could be observed. It is reasonable to believe that there was a church organization there. The Heavenly Beings were living in a perfectly arranged society. Every person knew his place. Priesthood, without any question, had been conferred and the leaders were chosen to officiate. Ordinances pertaining to that pre-existence were required and the love of God prevailed. Under such conditions it was natural for our Father to discern and choose those who were most worthy and evaluate the talents of each individual. He knew not only what each of us could do, but also what each of us would do when put to the test and when responsibility was given us. Then, when the time came for our habitation on mortal earth, all things were prepared and the servants of the Lord chosen and ordained to their respective missions."

And then he goes on and shows how some were appointed to greater missions that others. I would like to recommend chapters 7 and 8 and chapters 15 and 16 - four chapters in this very wonderful book. Now let's talk segregation again for a few minutes. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation. When He permitted the banishment of Hagar and Ishmael again He indulged in segregation. In the case of Jacob and Esau, He engaged in segregation. When He preserved His people Israel in Egypt for 400 years, He engaged in


an act of segregation, and when He brought them up out of Egypt and gave them their own land, He engaged in an act of segregation. We speak of the miracle of the preservation of the Jews as a separate people over all these years. It was nothing more or less than an act in segregation. I'm sure the Lord had His hand in it because the Jews still have a great mission to perform. In placing a curse on Laman and Lemuel, He engaged in segregation. When He placed the mark upon Cain, He engaged in segregation. When he told Enoch not to preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation. When He forbade intermarriages as He does in Deuteronomy, Chapter 7, He established

You remember when the Israelites were about to come into Palestine and there were evil nations there, the Lord was anxious to preserve his people by an act of segregation. He commanded His people Israel:
"Neither shalt thou make marriages with them. Thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son." It was a law for the preservation of Israel and it certainly was an act of segregation.

Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them. Who placed the Chinese in China? The Lord did. It was an act of segregation. When He placed only some of His chosen people in the tribe of Judah, the royal tribe, wasn't that an act cf segregation? And when He gave the birthright only to Ephraim, wasn't that an act of segregation?

The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence, at least in the bases of the Lamanites and the Negroes we have the definite word of the Lord himself that He placed a dark skin upon then: as a curse -- as a sign to all others. He forbade inter-marriage with them under threat of extension of the curse (2 Nephi 5:21) And He certainly segregated the


descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an iron curtain there. The Negro was cursed as to the Priesthood, and therefore, was cursed as to the blessings of the Priesthood. Certainly God made a segregation there.

And do you remember in Section 76 where the Lord is talking about the Terrestrial kingdom and those who shall go there? He mentions those who were without law. I presume He means that all during mortality the people referred to were not permitted to have the law of the gospel and He assigned them directly to the Terrest[r]ial Kingdom. Isn't that segregation?

Let's look at it in another way. In the world to come, some of us will go to the Celestial glory, some to the Terrestrial, others to the Telestial, and we are told that as one star differeth from another star in glory, so also is resurrection of the dead. So there will be a wide variation there. But isn't that segregation? And you remember that He, himself, said with respect to some of them: "Where God and Christ dwell, they cannot come, worlds without end." That is

So, do the Latter-day Saints believe in segregation as a principle? Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all of the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity, out think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the Gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood. Are we prejudiced, against him? Unjustly, sometimes we're accused of having such a prejudice. But what does the mercy of God have for him? This Negro, who in the pre-existence life lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa - if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may


have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the Celestial Kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a Celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory. He will not go then even with the honorable men of the earth to the Terrestrial glory, nor with the ones spoken of as being without law.

In the great mercy of God, He allows all men to rise above themselves. Isn't this a great testimony to the principle of repentance, that if a man does the best he can to rise above conditions and if he is faithful and devoted, the Lord recognizes him and lifts him up, I think that is one of the great evidences of the mercy of God.

Some years ago, back in 1936 to be exact, I became acquainted with a Negro family in Cincinnati, Ohio. I was back there for three months in connection with a newspaper assignment. I went to Church there and became acquainted with the family of a Negro man named Ben Hope. Accidentally he had found some of our tracts when he lived down in Mississippi. He read them and became interested. He wrote to the mission headquarters for a Book of Mormon, and by his own study, converted himself. Later he met the Elders and joined the Church. Then he joined the army in the First World War. When he came back, having carried a Book of Mormon with him all through the war and studied it carefully he converted his Negro sweetheart whom he married and she was baptized. Then they moved up to Cincinnati to escape the "Jim Crow" law.

Up in Cincinnati, some of the members of the Church became extremely prejudiced against this Negro family. They met in a group, decided what to do and went to the Branch President, and said that either the Hope family must leave or they would all leave. The Branch President ruled that Brother Hope and his family could not come to Church meetings. It broke their hearts. But, the missionaries went out to the Hope home and there conducted Sunday School every Sunday and served them the Sacrament. I had the privilege of visiting with the Hope family. I was in their home. I


saw how their song book had been literally worn out and likewise their Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, as soon as I got to my hotel that Sunday afternoon, I wrote home to my wife and had her send them a supply of books.

They were very faithful people. Brother Hope died just a little while ago. He was a man who was as thoroughly converted to the gospel as anyone I know. He was a full tithe payer all through the depression. He earned the most meager kind of living, but he never failed to pay his tithing. The Branch President showed me the tithing records, and all through the depression Brother Hope paid $1.50 a week. It was a full tithing. Sometimes Brother Hope didn't even have that, so he went into the hills and picked berries and sold them on the streets of Cincinnati to get enough money to pay that $1.50 tithing.

And then Brother Hope told me, as a testimony, that in the Negro area of Cincinnati where he lived, during the depression he didn't know of one man who had a job. But he said, "I had a job. I paid my tithing and during that whole depression, I didn't lose one day's work. Sometimes I didn't make much money on that day, and I did have to go out into the hills and get berries, but I always had an income."

Brother Hope asked me if it would be possible for him to have baptisms for the dead done in the temple on behalf of members of his family who had passed on. I went to President Smith, "Yes, you get their records and we will take them over to the temple and have the baptisms done for them." I did, and we performed vicarious baptisms for these Negroes. Only thebaptisms and confirmations - nothing else, but we did that much. Again I thought of the great mercy of Almighty God, and how He is willing to lift people up if they do their part.

Well, what about the removal of the curse? We know what the Lord has said in the Book of Mormon in regard to the Lamanites - they shall become a white and delightsome people. I know of no scripture having to do with the removal of the curse from the Negro. I think that we should not speculate too much about that. As long as the scriptures are silent on the subject, we should not


speculate too much about that. As long as the scriptures are silent on the subject, we should not try to determine on our own what the ultimate end of the Negro is going to be. I don't think we have a right to do that, do you? It is speculation.

We do have a few suggestions from the early brethren as to their own views, but I assume that these are their own private ideas--I don't know whether I am wrong in that, President Smith, but that has been my assumption that when the brethren spoke about the removal of the curse from the Negro, they were expressing their own views. But there is no scripture on it, and therefore, I don't think any of us, as teachers of the gospel, should speculate on it.

You remember that Brigham Young has said, "Cain conversed with His God every day, and knew all about the plan of creating this earth, for his father told him. But for the want of humility and through jealousy and an anxiety to possess the kingdom and to have the whole of it under his own control, and not allowing anybody else the right to say one word, what did he do? He killed his brother. Then the Lord put a mark on him. When all of the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood and of coming into the Kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received the resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from his posterity. He deprived his brother the privilege of pursuing his journey through life, and of extending his kingdom by mul[t]iplying upon the earth,and because he did this, he is the last to share the joys of the Kingdom of God."

President Woodruff added, "The Lord said, 'I will not kill Cain, but I will put a mark upon him, and that mark will be seen upon every face of every Negro upon the face of the earth,' And it is the decree of God that that mark shall remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Abel shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive his priesthood until the time of that redemption. Any man having one drop of the blood of Cain in him cannot receive the Priesthood. But the day will come when all that race will be redeemed and


possess all the blessing which we now have."

I couldn't add to that because I don't know anything more than that and I will leave it there. We should not go into the mysteries of what is going to happen to the Negro in the eternities far off, because the Lord has been silent on that subject.

Now what is our policy in regard to intermarriage? As to the Negro, of course, there is only one possible answer. We must not intermarry with the Negro.

[The printed pamphlet ends here, but there are 3 more paragraphs:]

Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. There isn't any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there? There are 50 million Negroes in the United States. If they were to achieve complete absorption with the white race, think what that would do. With 50 million Negroes inter-married with us, where would the priesthood be? who could hold it, in all America? Think what that would do to the work of the Church!

Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world, but let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Only here we have the reverse of he thing--what God hath separated, let not man bring together again.

What is our advice with respect to intermarriage with Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiians and so on? I will tell you what advice I give personally. If a boy or girl comes to me claiming to be in love with a Chinese or Japanese or a Hawaiian or a person of any other dark race, I do my best to talk them out of it. I tell them that I think the Hawaiians should marry Hawaiians, the Japanese ought to marry the Japanese, and the Chinese ought to marry Chinese, and the Caucasians should marry Caucasians, just exactly as I tell them that Latter-day Saints ought to marry Latter-day Saints. And I'm glad to quote the 7th chapter of Deuteronomy to them on that. I teach against inter-marriage of all kinds.

Here is the complete text from above, in PDF format, for everyone to either just view or save to your hard drive. I felt that it would be good for everyone out there, including TBMS, to read this talk in its entirety, which I'm sure very few have actually done. This is a perfect example of what Mormons have taught and believed regarding not only the black race, but other races; that they lived a sinful, horrible pre-existent life and basically got what they deserved in this life.

Again, these teachings have never been repudiated, never been apologized for and still stand as what the current and past Mormon Hierarchy still believe. You would think that if an Apostle gave a talk at Mormon owned and run BYU, that was incorrect and full of false teachings; that he would have been "removed" by God as promised or that at least in modern times, Hinckley or somebody would have stepped forward to condemn and repudiate such hateful and divisive teachings....but NOPE AND THEY NEVER WILL.

Some could argue that
Hinckley did do exactly this in the Priesthood session in April of 2006, but he never singled out anyone in particular(especially anyone from the Mormon Hierarchy past or present) and seemed to be referring only to "common members" who were the racists(much to his pretended shock and horror) and not the likes of the Prophets and Apostles, like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Johny Taylor, Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Mark E. Peterson, Bruce R. McConkie, Boyd K. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball, Heber J. Grant, Wilford Woodruff, and on and on and on.

From looking at the prominent names on this list of past and current Mormon Hierarchy racists(and there are many many more), I think it's perfectly clear why Hinckley didn't want to mention any specific names, especially those of the beloved Mormon Hierarchy, past or present, which would scream fraud to the world.

As always, I look forward to your comments.

Samuel the Utahnite

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