Thursday, March 30, 2006

Mormon Truth Is Now Accepting Donations, In Order To Allow Me To Dedicate Myself 100%, To Helping People Leave Mormonism And Recover!!

Well everyone, I first want to say, thanks again for all of your support and loyalty, over the last 8 months. I think all in all, what I've been able to accomplish has been a great success and the people that I've been able to help, has been a tremendous reward for my efforts. I never dreamed that I would have been able to help so many people in such a short period of time. However, without all of the support and Emails, that I've received from all of you out there, especially those of you that have personally shared how I've helped you; I wouldn't have been able to do any of this. I want to be able to continue doing what I have been doing on nothing less than a full-time basis and helping as many people as possible.

I simply don't know how else to do this, but with everything I've got, as I rarely do anything half-way. To spread the truth about the Mormon Church and it's fraud, while helping as many as I can, was never intended, on my part, to be a full-time experience. However, it has turned into that, through the sheer necessity that exists out there, and the amount of people that are searching for truth and suffering.

When somebody, especially a long-time or life-long Mormon, leaves the Church, there is no way to measure the amount of spiritual, psychological and emotional anguish that they suffer through. How do you measure the amount of pain associated with leaving the Mormon Church and losing best friends and loved ones from your life, because of your disbelief and the fact that they, those that you have lost, choose the Mormon Church over you. It's simply devastating and I know through personal experience.

I could literally spend all day, everyday, just answering all of your Emails, if I didn't do one other thing. I, of course can't do that, as I have additional studying and research to do, experiences to read, blog posts to write and podcasts to record. I also need time to sleep and do my own personal family stuff. I guess that I've always been the type of person, that can't walk away from somebody that needs help or advice and this is no different.

So, what it has come down to, is that I need your help through donations, to be able to continue helping people at a high level, like I have been doing. This is not something that I've wanted to do, but I've done all that I can, to get to this point and now I need my supporters to help me continue forward on this journey. For me, it started out as a journey to the truth, mostly for myself, and it soon evolved into helping myself, while helping others, including my immediate Family, Friends and then others that requested my help.

It all started for me back in June or July, posting my opinions on chat boards, that were heavily moderated and censored. That led to great frustration and the creation of this blog, Mormon Truth, about 8 months ago, where I wasn't censored and could freely express my opinions, without feeling that I was still in the Mormon Church. Nothing worse than feeling like you have a "new freedom of expression" and then once again, have it taken away from you.

Then, through the examples of Mike and Hyrum, at the Church is not true and John Dehlin, I decided that I needed to start my own podcast, which was right around 3 months ago. That was when the Email really started to pour in, asking for help, information, etc. I never expected the response that I've received, as once again, I was simply trying to help others, while helping myself at the same time.

So, it has been a journey and I've done all that I can, with plenty of personal things happening along the way, with deaths in the family, along with several of my close friends and Family, that might as well be dead, because they will no longer talk to me, due to my disbelief in Mormonism. By the way, NONE of them even know that I'm doing any of this; my blog, podcast, etc.

Their decision to no longer associate with me, is just based on very basic discussions we've had regarding the Church and my issues with Racism, Polygamy, etc. Believe me, I've kept it pretty simple and basic with these folks and even expressed that I just wanted to understand, etc. Imagine if they actually knew to what extent I don't believe, and that I've been actively fighting against the Church, to prevent conversion and cause de-conversions?
Yeah, it would really get ugly then!!

They've already called me a Son of perdition, told me that Satan is deceiving me, and that I'm one of the elect in the last days, that is being deceived, just as it was prophesied to happen. They tell me that, "they are praying for my soul." I let them know that I'm also praying for them, which they don't appreciate, especially since I'm now a very evil man that the Mormon God would never listen to.

Anyway, I feel very strongly, that I really need to be doing this on a full-time basis and be 100% dedicated to this cause, and all of this, has been an unexpected change in my journey of life, to say the least. But, the only way I can do that, that is to dedicate myself 100%, is with your help. I greatly appreciate anyone that is able to help me to accomplish these things and donate to "MORMON TRUTH", but I also wanted to be able to do something for you in return.

So, what I've done, is team up with a great guy, who strongly supports what I'm doing and wants to help me in this great cause. He has generously offered to donate 1830 Book of Mormon E-books, on CD-ROM, to anyone that donates $25 or more. He has spent countless hours, putting these together and came to me, offering to help me out, by giving each of you a gift for your support. I greatly appreciate his efforts and willingness to help further this cause and this mission that I'm now on. He has put together an amazing thing that will help all of us.

What he has done, is to scan every single page, from the original 1830 Book of Mormon, onto a CD-ROM and it is awesome!! Now, back then, there were no verses, so what he has done, is match-up the text from back then, with the current verses of today, to make it very easy to compare what was written originally, to what is written today. This will be a great gift for anyone out there that wants to do these comparisons, to be able to see, for yourself, all of the changes that have taken place in The Book of Mormon, since 1830, which is nearly 4,000.

The text is large and easy to read and by having it on disk, you can take it with you wherever you go, if you want to show it to friends, families and others who don't believe these claims and chalk them up to nothing more than anti-Mormon rhetoric. This man, who is helping me out, wishes to remain anonymous, but has agreed to offer this E-Book of Mormon for a month and then we'll have something else great, to offer everyone who donates.

So, once again, I say thanks to all of you, that have been of so much support over the last 8 months and counting. I'm truly grateful for those of you out there, that enjoy my blog and podcasts and especially those of you that I've been able to help in any way. For those that are able to donate and help me in this cause, thank you so much, as I'm sure many people will be grateful. I never realized how much pain there is out there, that is being lived everyday, by former members of this Mormon cult, including myself.

I can't do everything, as I still have a ton of Email to get to, but I assure you and I promise all of you out there, that I will do everything I can and try as hard as I can, everyday, to keep the truth rolling forward and help as many people as possible. Also, today I'm releasing a 2 part interview, that I did with Eric, from "Living Truth Podcast" that I think you guys will really enjoy. I discuss, more in depth, many of the reasons why I left the Church and I chronicle my journey to the truth. We talk about a lot of different subjects and I share many experiences that I had while on my mission in Argentina.

I also realize now, that I'm not in this for the short-term, because there are too many people that need help and support and that number will just keep growing, since at any given time, the Mormon Church, has around 50,000 missionaries out in the world, trying to convert and indoctrinate even more people into their fraud, through their outright lies, manipulations and half-truths.

I want to mention, that most of these missionaries out there doing this, just like I was, are innocent victims of the brainwashing and indoctrination, that are just being used by the Mormon Hierarchy, to perpetuate their fraud. We need as many people as possible, fighting for truth, justice and honesty while reaching out to these people, that currently need our help and those that will need our help in the future.

Take care everyone and thanks again for your support. For those that want to make donations, I have a donate button on my blog, in the right hand column, that will take you to a secure page, through Paypal. You do not have to be a member of Paypal to make donations. If anyone has any questions regarding donations or anything at all, as always, feel free to Email me at:

Samuel the Utahnite

(Also, just a quick note; Since I'm not a registered charity, ANY and ALL donations made to "Mormon Truth", are NOT tax deductible. Thanks again everyone for your tremendous support!!)

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Thursday, March 23, 2006

Spencer W. Kimball, Former Mormon Prophet, Openly Mocks The Temple And Renders It's Purpose Useless, With His Tirade!! Unbelievable!! What A Fool!!

A while back, as I was surfing the Mormon cult's website, as I often do, I came across yet another jaw dropping stunner. This is the reason that I keep researching and looking. Even when you think that you've found and seen it all, you find 3 more. One thing that I know for sure, is that I'll never, EVER, run out of material to roast these clowns with.

It's amazing, that old saying about, "if you give someone enough rope, they'll hang themselves", well, it's absolutely true with the Mormon cult. The funny thing is that they give themselves the rope and then hang themselves with their own rope. They may try or even claim to run a tight ship but the reality is, that it is a ship in complete chaos and the left hand doesn't even know where the right hand is, which is extremely dangerous if you are Spencer W. Kimball and believe that masturbation leads to the Gross sin of homosexuality. In short, the ship is sinking, BIG TIME!!

What's also so funny, is that everyone says, "well, back in 'those days', or 'in that time', it was okay to say this crap", but the problem is that now, it isn't okay(it wasn't okay then either by the way) and they haven't removed them yet. I would say that the person in charge of what goes on their website, will probably be fired, but if it was up to me, I'd give him/her, a promotion.

Whoever they are, they make my job and what I do, much easier and more enjoyable. I owe you a big, huge thanks!! It feels so good to expose this fraud to the whole world using their own pathetic words, quotes, talks, etc. So, let's stop TBMing around and get to what Kimball said.....LOL!! I'm not gonna start with a quote that shocked me the most, but with another part that just amazed me and pissed me off. So, what do you say, let's get this party started!!

Here is the talk:

First Presidency Message-The Marriage Decision
By President Spencer W. Kimball

From an address given at the Stockholm, Sweden, Area Conference August, 1974
Spencer W. Kimball, “The Marriage Decision,” Ensign, Feb. 1975, 2

"Recently I met a young returned missionary who is 35 years old. He had been home from his mission for 14 years and yet he was little concerned about his bachelorhood, and laughed about it.

I shall feel sorry for this young man when the day comes that he faces the Great Judge at the throne and when the Lord asks this boy: “Where is your wife?” All of his excuses which he gave to his fellows on earth will seem very light and senseless when he answers the Judge. “I was very busy,” or “I felt I should get my education first,” or “I did not find the right girl”—such answers will be hollow and of little avail. He knew he was commanded to find a wife and marry her and make her happy. He knew it was his duty to become the father of children and provide a rich, full life for them as they grew up. He knew all this, yet postponed his responsibility. So we say to all youth regardless of what country is your home, and regardless of the customs in your country, your Heavenly Father expects you to marry for eternity and rear a good, strong family.

The Lord planned that men and women would find each other and have a happy family relationship, be true to each other, and remain clean and worthy."

Wow!! What a nice guy!! Like he had any right to condemn this guy who wasn't married yet. What was he supposed to do, cry about it? Why not laugh, like Steve Young did, when he was 35 and not married, quoting his Great Grandpa Brigham, who said that unmarried men his age, "where a menace to society?" These are exactly the type of stereotypes the Church perpetuates, that make people feel worthless, lonely and like their life is over and they nothing worth living for.

Words like these, can cause people to go into depression, due to their perceived failure, by the man they revere as Prophet, Seer and Revelator. The Mormon Church is great at laying down the law and guilt trips, just like Kimball did above. It is disgraceful!! Whenever a person meets the right person and decides to get married, is their personal business, not for some old man or cult to decide, especially when both of them are completely out of touch with all reality and twisted.

The Mormon Church wants to control every aspect of every members life, right down to what underwear they should wear; but only with the cult's approval of course. They tell them when they are worthy enough to wear the cult underwear and when they should remove it. Now, if this isn't control, power and a cult, I don't know what is. Also,if someone is asked to remove the magic underwear, the cult keeps them hoping and praying for the day that they can put that magic underwear back on, with permission of course. Amazing isn't it, when a person can't even choose, on their own, what underwear to wear and when to wear it? Even the military allows you to pick out your own underwear, damn!!

Now, here was the other part of this talk, where Kimball renders their multi-million dollar temple structures meaningless, proving that they are a complete fraud, while spending billions of dollars to build temples that essentially "MOCK GOD":

As we talk about marriage, we remember, as Luke says:

“Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:24.)

Only through celestial marriage can one find the straight way, the narrow path. Eternal life cannot be had in any other way. The Lord was very specific and very definite in the matter of marriage. He said:

“For this is a day of warning, and not a day of many words. For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in the last days.” (D&C 63:58.)

The scriptures say that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matt. 22:32.)

There are no dead except those who have chosen to be dead as to the law, dead as to the benefits, dead as to the blessings, dead as to the eternal nature of the gift.

In our own day there are many people who form their own conclusions and do their own rationalizing and calculate and evaluate and develop their own opinions and “kick against the pricks,” and close the door to their own opportunities.

Some time ago, in deep anguish, a mother came to see me. She was left alone. Her son and his wife met with an accident, leaving several small children. She came with many regrets and told me that the young victims of a plane crash had not been married in the temple. Both coming from good families, they had either ignored it or postponed it. They had lived the majority of their lifetime on the earth and still had not had this ordinance performed. This accident left them separated. The statement “till death do you part” left them single and their children orphans.

Of course, someone can have the work done in the
temple for these young people after they have been dead a year, but will those young people accept the ordinances in death which were of such little consequence to them while they lived? And, more important than all else, do you think that God would be thusly mocked? He is the God of the living and not of the dead. He identified this ordinance as one to be
done by the living themselves.

Have you ever realized that there is no magic in death, that ceasing to breathe does not make angels of careless people, does not make believers of disbelievers, does not bring faith where there was skepticism?

Have you ever studied carefully the parable of the ten virgins? Those who had prepared themselves for the blessings promised were ready, and those who were unprepared were cast out. Procrastination is a veritable thief.

In the early days of the restored Church the Lord said much that should have been warning to the readers of the scriptures, but since they did not understand, the voice of the Lord came again.

Remember the Lord said:

“… If a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word … then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.” (D&C 132:18.)

The Lord makes clear that even the rewards to the angels are secondary to and inferior to the blessings of those “who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.” (D&C 132:16.)

The Lord promises much to you young people who take care of this marriage in a proper way. He says:

“… And they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads. …” (D&C 132:19.)

Now this is not a matter of opinion; it matters little what you or l should think or argue. These are facts; the judges at the gates will know for certain the records, the spirit, and the true record. The Book of Life (See Rev. 20:12) will show the earthly activities of all of us.

I have repeated the provisions and the restrictions and the glories and the benefits, because we are all inclined to let them pass our notice like water down the river, but the Lord has repeated over and over as his message of the revelation came to Joseph Smith over and over, and as we read the scriptures over and over. He says:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.” (D&C 132:21.) Can anything be more forthright and unequivocal than that? There is no room for argument or quibbling.

The Marriage Decision

Amazing, isn't it? Will God be thusly mocked? Will God be thusly mocked in that someone can do the temple work for someone that didn't give a rip in this life and expect them to be okay on the other side? Also, as Kimball says, I guess I am guilty of forming my own opinion and "KICKING AGAINST THE PRICKS!!" I guess that Kimball didn't realize that he was actually referring to himself and the Mormon Hierarchy with that comment?!!

WOW!! I guess the whole necessity and concept of temples just went out the window, didn't it? I guess Kimball felt justified in completely judging this couple and must have been transfigured into Jesus Christ or something. I find these statements jaw dropping in what they reveal about the worthlessness of Mormon Temple endowments for the dead, as well as Baptisms for the dead and every single thing that goes on in their temples/palaces.

Let me just repeat again, what Kimball so boldly said, so that there can be no misunderstanding: "someone can have the work done in the temple for these young people after they have been dead a year, but will those young people accept the ordinances in death which were of such little consequence to them while they lived? And, more important than all else, do you think that God would be thusly mocked? He is the God of the living and not of the dead. He identified this ordinance as one to be done by the living themselves."

So, if what Kimball says is true, that God is the God of the living and not of the dead, that God will not be thusly mocked by this couple or anyone like them and he is pretty sure that this couple will continue on believing that these ordinances done for them in the temple, have little consequence to them, since they treated them that way in their mortal lives; then what the hell is the purpose of the temple? Why even bother? Why mock God?

Why spend billions of dollars building worthless temples that merely MOCK GOD? Why continue doing worthless ordinances for Mormons that have died, that didn't do them while they were living, since, he said, "that God identified this ordinance as one to be done by the living themselves." Isn't this just amazing?!!

Aren't Mormons violating the opinion of a former Prophet by doing these ordinances for these people who don't even care one whit about them? After all, Hinckley simple stated that 1 earring in each ear should suffice and now that is a commandment, right? Just ask David Bednar who suggests ending relationships over the earring commandment. So, what are we to make of the equally simple statements of Kimball? Wouldn't they also constitute a commandment, especially since they involve the temple, the Lord's holiest house? Are earrings more important than MOCKING the MORMON GOD in the holy temple of the Lord?

The conclusion that I come to, after reading these words of Kimball, is that temples are only for Never-Mormons that have died I guess, who never had the chance to do these ordinances for themselves, while living. I'm sure the Mormon God is still on the verge of being mocked, even by them, right? What a joke!!

Also, don't give me this BS that he was just speaking as man in that situation, or just giving his opinion, etc. This speech was given in an Area Conference, in Stockholm, Sweden, in August of 1974 and he was the Prophet of God at the time, ruling over God's one and only true Kingdom and Church on earth. Also, this talk, in all it's glory, is currently on Jesus' personal website and it also appeared in Jesus' personal magazine, The Ensign, in Feb 1975. These men, former and current Prophets, have contradicted each other so many times, all the way back to Joe, that it's Beyond ridiculous.

So, Unless the Mormon Church has officially retracted a statement, teaching or doctrine, they all stand, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. It doesn't matter if it was said in 1852 in The Journal of Discourses, or said yesterday by someone. There should never be a time when Mormon General Authorities contradict each other, especially Prophets and Apostles, EVER!! Supposedly, God will not allow it.

You TBMS really can't see all of the inconsistencies? REALLY?!!

Let's just remember what Ezra Taft Benson said in the 14 Fundamentals talk(He was an Apostle at the time):

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.


Mormons, I'd say you've got big problems, all over the place and some of you are in deep, deep denial about them. It's obvious that if you don't want to look at these things with an open mind, then it's all moot.

In this post, I haven't even gotten into Hinckley's lies and deceptions, that would cause one to have to entirely throw Benson's talk out the window. You can't believe what Benson said above and believe that Kimball, Hinckley, Young or even Joseph Smith are true Prophets. Based on their lies, contradictions and deceptions, it is impossible. Hinckley is a huge Prophet of deception and fraud.

If Joseph Smith had been a true Prophet, called of God, the second that he married and had sex with a 14 year old, as a 37 year old man, God would have zapped him instantly, right? Of course, according to Joe, it was commanded of God and God even sent his angel, with a flaming sword, to slay him, if he didn't become a pedophile polygamist. So, there you have it, God not only encourage pedophilia in the 1830's and 1840's, rather he COMMANDED PEDOPHILIA. I hope that I never meet that sick, twisted and perverted God!!

In any case, lets rest assure that God will handle it(NOT!!) if one of these men get out of line at any point, according to Mormon folklore. Allow me to quote Wilford Woodruff from Declaration 1 in the D&C:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Official Declaration 1

So, what's going on? If what he says is true, why hasn't and isn't God taking these clowns out one by one, when they "attempt to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." Does Wilford mean that they will live to a ripe old age of 95 or more and then die of natural causes? It appears that Prophets leading people astray, is "in the programme", and that "it is the mind of God." Again, I ask, why isn't God "removing them out of their place and permitting them to lead you astray."

Uh maybe because they aren't men of God? Ya think? Wake up people!!

For further reading, if you haven't had enough, I supply you the following link on whether the Mormon Church has ever officially taught that God was once a man and how Hinckley has lied about it on numerous occasions. OOPS!!
Gordon B. Hinckley's Lies About "God Never Once Being A Man!!"

Thanks everyone for reading my blog and listening to my podcasts and there is much more to come.

Samuel the Utahnite

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006

Richard G. Hinckley, Mormon Seventy, Was A Director Of The Company "Nature's Sunshine Products", And They Have "Outlined Potential Violations Of Law."

Well, lets just say that Richard G. Hinckley, Mormon Seventy, for less than a year and non other than the son of the current Mormon Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Gordon B. Hinckley, might find himself in some hot water very soon. He may be getting a special visit from the feds, unless Daddy can bail him out, a la Mark Hofmann. Of course, we don't know if he has knowingly done anything wrong or not, but hey, like the old saying goes, where there's smoke, there's usually fire. As I stated in the title of this post, Richard G. Hinckley was a Director for Nature's Sunshine Products, Inc, which is based out of Provo, Utah.

Shortly after being called as a Seventy (you know, when Gordon B. Hinckley was so terrified of the very appearance of nepotism and recused himself from the process and told everyone not to blame his son for being called), Richard G. Hinckley sent a notice to the "Company", indicating his resignation from the Board of Directors effective as of June 30, 2005.

The "Company" said: The Company is treating the resignation as effective on July 15, 2005, the date of receipt of the notice. Richard G. Hinckley said, in the resignation, that he was "resigning so he can devote more time to other responsibilities, and his resignation is not in connection with any know disagreement with the Company on any matter relating to the Company's operations, policies or practices."

The time, that he needed, for his other responsibilities, was of course to live the very difficult, agonizing life of a Seventy; you know, flying around the world on private jets with Daddy, is a real tough thing to do. Of course, shortly after being called to be a Seventy, and on his way to South Korea, with Daddy, on Huntsman's private jet, unbeknownst to the world of course; his elastic band snapped and popped him in they eye while he was exercising. We never have heard how he or his eye are doing by the way. I guess he must be okay.

Anyway, please allow me to post the article from the Deseret News, explaining the problems that Nature's Sunshine Products is in and then I will describe the trouble that Richard G. Hinckley may be in and why.
Tuesday, March 21, 2006

Clouds shroud 'Sunshine' — Provo firm may face firings, stock delisting

By Jenifer K. Nii
Deseret Morning News

Provo-based nutritional supplement maker Nature's Sunshine Products Inc. retracted four years of financial statements Monday and warned that it faced possible delisting from the Nasdaq stock exchange, government investigations and termination of senior officers.

Its stock price sank more than 13 percent.

The company said in an 8-K filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that a preliminary report of its audit committee — which was first assembled to investigate certain foreign operations but later expanded to include its general financial statements — found "certain internal control weaknesses and outlined potential violations of law." It did not elaborate on what those weaknesses were, or the potential legal violations.

The committee's report included recommendations, "including with respect to the termination of certain employees and senior officers," the company said in the filing. It did not elaborate.

Representatives of Nature's Sunshine Products did not respond Monday to requests for further comment.

The audit committee's investigation is ongoing, the filing said. Meanwhile, Nature's Sunshine said it has contacted the "relevant authorities" with respect to potential wrongdoings. It did not say which agencies were contacted, or whether those agencies have or likely will launch independent investigations. But the company said it "intends to fully cooperate with such authorities concerning these matters, and to make a full report to these authorities, if appropriate."

Based on the audit committee's report, the company said its financial statements for 2005 (10-Q), 2004 (10-K) and forms 10-Q for 2002, 2003 and 2004 should not be relied upon. Nor, the company said, should investors rely on the management's report, included in its 2004 annual report, regarding internal control over financial reporting.

Nature's Sunshine Products already missed its filing deadline with the Nasdaq stock exchange for the financial quarter ended Sept. 30, 2005. The stock exchange gave it an extension until March 31 to file its complete 10-Q statement, but the company said Monday it now does not expect to meet that deadline, nor its 10-K for the fiscal year ended Dec. 31, 2005. As such, the company warned that its stock may be delisted; and, if that happened, its liquidity "would be severely impacted."

Shares of Nature's Sunshine Products closed down $2.16 at $14.33 Monday on Nasdaq. During the past 12 months, the company's stock price has traded in a range of $12.50 to $23.89.



So, here's the bottom line and why Richard G. Hinckley may be in trouble. As stated in the article, an audit committee was assembled to investigate certain foreign operations, but in that process, they found "certain internal control weaknesses and outlined potential violations of law."

Due to these "potential violations of law", "Nature's Sunshine Products Inc. retracted four years of financial statements Monday and warned that it faced possible delisting from the Nasdaq stock exchange, government investigations and termination of senior officers." Also, "the company said it 'intends to fully cooperate with such authorities concerning these matters, and to make a full report to these authorities, if appropriate.'"

Now, on February 15, 2005,
Richard G. Hinckley did a little selling and made a pretty good sum of money in the process. Now, let's keep in mind that his profits may have been based on artificially high, inflated, fraudulent numbers, based on false information, that was being provided to the UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION, through their 10K's, over a possible 4 year period of time. He had better hope that he didn't know ANYTHING about the possibly incorrect 10K's.

That's certainly not a good thing and again, they obviously have to do the investigation, to see who was "fixing the numbers" if anybody and what exactly was going on. I hope for Richard G. Hinckley's sake, that he wasn't involved. Even if he was, we may never know it, but we'll assume he's innocent until proven guilty, after all, this is the United States of America and that's how it's supposed to be. Too bad the Mormon Church rarely applies that motto.

Anyway, so what strong evidence is there, linking Richard G. Hinckley to those possibly fraudulent 10K's? Well, how about his signature of approval. I haven't checked the other years yet, but one thing for sure, is that his signature was on the 10K, that was submitted in 2005.

Here is the link and just scroll down to page 41 and you will see Richard G. Hinckley's name, as one of the signatures, since he was one of the Directors. So, if the 10k's are fraudulent and he knew about it and then signed them......he's in serious deep trouble. That is a lot of ifs but it's not a good sign, I'll just say that.

I just felt that everyone should know this information and be made aware of the situation. The US. Government has been going after these guys pretty hard, with the whole Enron, MCI, and Martha Stewart stuff going on; so I'm sure that they will go after NATURE’S SUNSHINE PRODUCTS and anyone involved, if there was indeed fraud committed.

Hey, doesn't the Church preach, "avoid the very appearance of evil?" Does anyone think that the Church will come out or Richard G. Hinckley himself, to address these issues or clarify things? What's that saying about monkeys flying out of my %$#......or when hell freezes over?

Yeah, that's when that will happen!! Until then, I guess we sit tight and wait to see if the feds come knocking on Richard's door. Even if they do and he was involved, I'm sure that they can broker some back room deal, with the Billion dollar cult leader, Gordon B. Hinckley, to keep his Son, God's inspired, called by Jesus, nepotism free Seventy, out of trouble. I'm sure that they can at least keep it quiet. Then again, maybe not, who knows? Wouldn't it be refreshing, to see Richard G. Hinckley, go before the cameras and either declare his innocence or guilt?

I'm sure that they'll love seeing this post on my blog though, as it should make their day!! I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens, but don't hold your breath, waiting for Richard G. Hinckley to publicly address this "very appearance of evil and possible law breaking."

Samuel the Utahnite

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Friday, March 17, 2006

Did The Deseret News Edit The AP Story, About Mormon Buckley Jeppson, Being Threatened With Excommunication For Being Gay And Marrying His Partner?!!

Before I even get into the purpose of this post, that I've stated above, I want to very highly recommend to everyone that is interested in this subject, that is, the soon to be excommunication of Buckley Jeppson, to please listen to John Dehlin's 3 part podcast and interview with him. (Links just below these comments.) It is outstanding and most definitely worth a listen.

Buckley Jeppson describes what he is feeling, what he has felt and how he has been treated and what he has experienced through the years. John Dehlin does an outstanding job and is very thoughtful, considerate and compassionate, as always, while still asking Buckley Jeppson, some very difficult questions and just letting him tell his story. Great job John!! Keep up the great work!!

Buckley Jeppson, also describes how in the late 60's and 70's, some gay students at BYU, came to him, regarding the shock/porno therapy and vomit treatments, that was forced upon them, at BYU, to try to make them straight again. It is just awful!! I mean, come on, this is what the true Church of Jesus Christ did to gay people. My understanding is that it still goes on at Evergreen, or at least it did just a few years ago. When will the Church come clean on all of this and admit what they've done?

I found this interview to be fascinating and this is a good man that the Mormon Church should not be going after, with the goal of excommunicating him. Do they want to also put him through some of their famous shock therapy or force him to get very ill and vomit to overcome being gay? This is just another example of the horrible Mormon bigotry and it makes me sick.

This is a good man, and they want to excommunicate him for one reason; he's gay and wants to be with person that he loves, which in his case or any like his case, is strictly forbidden by the loving Mormon Church. He's still a human being, with feelings, but remember now, the Mormon Church looks at excommunication as an outpouring of love and a way to help people like Buckley Jeppson. Talk about twisted!!

I will be writing and saying a lot more about this matter in the very near future, as I have a lot to say. 10 months ago, I would have probably agreed that he should be excommunicated and that too, makes me sick. Thank God, I'm no longer the Bigot that I allowed the Mormon Church to help create. I'm sure that Boyd K. Packer, Mr. anti-gay himself, is having a huge input on this situation.

I hope that the Mormon Church is embarrassed from one end of the world to the other, for their blatant and evil bigotry and homophobia. This has not gone unnoticed by the national press and AP wire and will only spread more and more, all around the world.

So, Please, anyone reading this post, send it to as many people as you can, along with the links to John Dehlin's podcast. This needs to be known and heard by the masses. Let's expose and embarrass these bigots as much and as loudly as we can.

This situation, will result in two massive black eyes and a broken nose for the Church. I also hope that this is a wake up call for everyone out there that thinks that they belong to some warm and fuzzy, bosom burning, loving, gentle Church, that is all about love, Family togetherness and Jesus Christ. Yeah, Families can be together forever, unless you are gay, right? Maybe that should be their new and more appropriate, updated motto.

Anyway, here are the links below, to all three parts of the podcast and again, listen to this man, the hell and pain that he has gone through, and what has the Mormon Church done for him? Now they want to give him one final kick to the gut, by excommunicating him, to only add to his tremendous pain, suffering and anguish. Now that's Christlike love!! Go get those Gays Hinckley, it will make you and Packer feel like big men, won't it? What a disgusting, hate-filled, bigoted cult!!

Click here for episode 1
here for episode 2
here for episode 3

Here is a direct link, to John Dehlin's site.

Now, onto the Newspaper article that I mentioned in the title of this post.

Well, it certainly appears that this article was heavily edited, taking out sentences, entire paragraphs, adding things that weren't in the original article and most importantly, changing all of the Mormon references to LDS or Latter-Day-Saints. Amazing isn't it? Well, not really, as I'm getting pretty used to this type of crap with Mormon Inc. Who did the editing hack job? Jennifer Dobner, completely rewrote her original article that went worldwide, or the Deseret News took great liberties with what she wrote, after they got a hold of her article? I think that we know that answer to that one. John Dehlin sent me an Email, inviting me to listen to his latest podcast with Buckley Jeppson, who the Church wants to excommunicate ASAP.

Anyway, he started out the podcast by reading from the AP article, which I had a copy of, from the Deseret News, and I was trying to follow along and I was like.....hmm.....that's strange, John said Mormon and here it says LDS, etc. It didn't take me long to figure out what was happening, considering the source I was using. So I then pulled up the AP article that he was reading from and yeah, it's quite different and most references that put the Church in a worse light, than they are already in, just for wanting to excommunicate someone for being gay and getting married, got cut out or changed.

What I've done, is post the original Deseret News version of the AP article below in black lettering. In red lettering, and parenthesis, I've put what the AP article actually said, before the Mormon Church/Deseret News hacked it up. In blue lettering, I'm putting what the Mormon Church/Deseret News added, that wasn't even in the original AP article. You don't have to take my word for it, but can click on the links that I just gave you and verify it for yourself. This should be a big eye opener for everyone out there reading this, that doesn't believe that the Mormon Church would do such a thing. By the way, the Mormon Church owns Deseret News, for those that didn't know.

This just proves once again, how they lie,deceive and cover-up to try to make themselves look better, with the ultimate goal, of always putting the Church in a better light, no matter what, in any situation. The Deseret news version of this AP article, is just that, the Deseret News' version, AKA Jesus' and the Mormon Hierarchies version. Boy, good thing Jesus Christ hired that PR firm to help his Church out, isn't it?

Here is the article:

Deseret Morning News, Thursday, March 16, 2006

Gay man faces LDS excommunication over marriage
(Mormon in Legal Gay Marriage Faces Cutoff)

By Jennifer Dobner
Associated Press

SALT LAKE CITY — A gay man who is a lifetime member of the LDS(Mormon) Church could be facing disciplinary action and excommunication after legally marrying his partner in Canada.

Buckley Jeppson, 57, said he's been informed verbally(by a senior church leader) that his life is incompatible with the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that a disciplinary council will address the matter.

Jeppson, of Washington, D.C., married Mike Kessler in Toronto on Aug. 27, 2004.

It is believed that if Jeppson is excommunicated, it would be the first time a Latter-day Saint(Mormon) in a legal same-sex marriage would be punished by the church, said Olin Thomas, executive director of Affirmation, an advocacy and education group for gay Latter-day Saints.(Mormons)

Jeppson said that over the past five months Nolan Archibald, the senior leader(-or President-) over a group(of a group) of LDS(Mormon) congregations in the Washington, (D.C.), area, has encouraged him(Jeppson) to resign his church membership, which would avoid disciplinary action.

Jeppson is not willing(unwilling) to do that.

"It's not going to be my choice to deny my heritage and my faith," Jeppson said in a telephone interview from his home.

Contacted by The Associated Press, Archibald declined specific comment, saying he has a sacred duty to keep matters involving church members confidential.

"I would like to say, it's a total misrepresentation of the conversation we had," Archibald said.

The LDS(Mormon) church only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman, Salt Lake City-based church spokeswoman Kim Farah said. Where other forms of marriage are legal, only those in heterosexual marriages could be members of the church, she said.

Baptized church members promise to live the principles of the gospel, Farah said.

"If the person later decides to reject these core principles, they have the right and freedom to do so," she said. "However, they cannot reasonably expect to reject the most fundamental teachings of the church and still wrap themselves in the cloak of church membership. Of course, they would be welcome to continue to attend church services."

(Thomas believes this issue is an important one for the church to address.)

(Thomas said, "The church's position has been that they really didn't have anything against gays, although everyone had to obey church rules to not have sex outside of marriage. But now many countries are allowing legal same-sex marriage. What are they going to do in all of those countries where they are sending missionaries?")

(In the Mormon church, disciplinary action is taken when church leaders believe a person's behavior or actions are incompatible with church teachings and threaten to damage the church.

In the past, members have been excommunicated for reasons ranging from criminal acts to scholarly works in history and theology that contradicted church claims. Excommunication means that a person is removed from church rolls and can no longer take the sacrament, teach or preach in church or go inside church temples.

Copies of letters written by Jeppson to Archibald, which Jeppson gave to the AP, indicate the men have been discussing Jeppson's choice — resignation or disciplinary action — since November.

Jeppson does not expect to prevail in any disciplinary action, nor does he expect the church to accept same-sex marriage. Given the choice, Jeppson said his preference would be for the church to ignore him.

"I'm not attending in a dress or wearing a boa or anything," Jeppson said. "I show up in my suit and white shirt and split after sacrament meeting. I just want to participate and I want to worship quietly in a safe place.")

Isn't this just amazing? The guy just wants to go to Church, be left alone, doesn't flaunt to the world that he is gay but the Church just won't stand for it. This just shows once again, how out of touch with reality and how cruel the Mormon Church really is. Of course, it wasn't Buckley Jeppson that wanted to shout to the world that he was gay and married to another man, it was the Mormon Church that forced him to go public, by bringing it up in the first place and threatening him with excommunication. What a complete disgrace!!

Please listen to that 3 part interview and spread the word to as many people as you can, that the Mormon Church is homophobic and bigoted. It's about time that everyone could see a modern example of what lies at the core of the Mormon Hierarchy and their teachings.

Samuel the Utahnite

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Thursday, March 16, 2006

There Are Some Crazy, Sick, Foul, Perverted Folks Out There That Consider Themselves To Be Good Mormons And They Email Me Everyday. They Need Help!!

Lately, I've been receiving more and more Emails from those Anti-Samuel the Utahnites out there and it's actually getting to be quite disturbing, as the anger against me and what I'm doing, just continues to grow. I guess you could say that they are just anti-truth and anti-reality but they also hate me for exposing this huge fraud. I'm sincerely concerned for the well being of these individuals that are absolutely losing their minds over what I'm doing and clearly living on the edge.

My Favorite stalker, who has now sent me 10 Emails, 3 this week alone, constantly wants to talk about me sexually, my sex life, my anatomy, my walnuts, etc, and yesterday I got one from somebody else, that F'd me, F'd what I was doing, called me an F'n prick, etc. Is this what it has come to for these pathetic, sick, mentally deranged cult members?

I guess if you can't counter the facts and debate what I've been sharing since last July, and can't justify all of the Mormon lies, deceit, contradictions and awful teachings, which include bigotry and racism, some teachings that have led to suicides; then you just lash out at me and personally attack me any way you can, right? These are desperate, pathetic and mentally ill individuals.

Frankly, I feel sorry for these people and I hope that they get the help they need and soon. These people are an embarrassment to their beloved cult, to themselves and family and quite frankly, are a danger to society in general, especially those of us that are telling the truth about Mormonism. And people wonder why I don't use my real name? These wackos would probably try to kill me or my family and friends and burn my house down, blow my cars up, etc, if they knew who I really was.

Is their religion that important and strong in their lives, or are they just mentally sick people who have been made worse by the Mormon cult? Probably a little of both!! We've seen examples all over the world of what religious zealots and fanatics are willing to do for their God and leaders and I'm not sure that some of these folks, these die-hard Apologists, are that far away from doing something crazy for what they believe in.

Just like any other religion, these fanatical crazies, just make everyone else in the religion, the normal people, look really bad. And they think that they are doing it to help, or in defense of their faith? It just shows how twisted their minds are, doesn't it?

I'm pretty much at the point now, that I may never be able to reveal who I really am, due to safety concerns for myself and those that I love. These sick individuals, probably believe that "blood atonement" is still in affect and just like the great examples in the Mormon Hierarchy, "the ends always justify their means." I have always intended to reveal who I am at some point, publicly, but now I'm not sure that it would be safe to do so and I will not put my loved ones and friends in any danger.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm actually living back in the days of Brigham Young and blood atonement, when I get these insane Emails. I found it fascinating that when the Hofmann bombings started, that the Tanners thought they might be next and that the bombings might have been committed by some "blood atonement, believing member", that would do anything for the Lord, even kill if necessary. I'm now beginning to understand their thought process and understand what they were feeling.

I have even more respect for people like the Tanners, Eric, Mike Norton, Bob McCue, Richard Packham, Tal Bachman, etc, for actually revealing to the world who they are. I would say that it is a risky proposition to do so and I admire them for their courage. All I can say guys, is watch your back!!

I honestly believe that if it wasn't for the laws of the land, that the Mormon Church would still openly practice blood atonement, in order to get rid of the likes of me and everyone that they consider to be sinners, according to their standards, but especially us Apostates. Damn laws, always getting in the way of what the Mormon Hierarchy would really like to be doing!! I guess that it's kind of like polygamy, if it wasn't for those laws, they'd still be polygamists, right? After all, it is Gods highest Celestial law.

I think that these people are a perfect example of what affect the Church can have, mentally and psychologically on some individuals; it turns them into crazy lunatics. It's amazing that they are writing me in defense of their precious Mormon Church, and consider themselves to be good Christians and Mormons. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them had temple recommends and felt completely justified in doing and saying what they are, because they are "doing it in defense of the Lord."

Now, with that being said, I don't think these mentally unstable nutjobs, that masquerade as good Mormons, are typical and certainly don't represent the majority of good Mormons, that are blindly following and just trying to live good and happy lives. These good people, which is the vast majority of Mormon members, have complete and total trust and faith in their Mormon leaders.

I was once one of them too and I never dreamed that I was being lied to and deceived either. It wasn't even a thought in my mind, at any point, even though I had many unanswered questions for most of my life, from an early age. I was usually happy with the "we won't understand that one until we are on the other side" response, which is the common Mormon fall back answer for anything that can't be explained.

I've stated many times and I will state it again for those that are having reading comprehension difficulties; my beef is with the Mormon Hierarchy, not the general membership of the Church, which I consider to be innocent victims of the cult. Like I've said countless times, I used to be one of these Innocent, brainwashed members, as were many of you out there and we didn't know the truth and believed in Mormonism with all of our hearts.

Now, the members that I do have a big problem with, and take issue with, are those that have learned and know all the facts, done intensive study like most of us, know all about the true history and lies and then say that it only makes their testimony stronger. Then, they defend the Mormon Hierarchy against our attacks by using any means necessary. People have accused me of having anger issues or being too angry? Trust me, I'm Bambi, compared to these insane, die-hard TBMS!!

I'm speaking of the apologists and those that want to defend their faith at any cost, even sending me foul Emails that are personally threatening or attacking me, my family and friends. Again, some people defend the Mormon Church's sins in complete ignorance, as I used to do, and as many of you did, but some do it with complete knowledge of the fraud and I find that very disturbing.

Maybe they were just more brain-washed than we were? It's pretty scary and sad to see what a religion/cult, like Mormonism can do to somebody. But, that is what happens in mind control cults like Mormonism.

My good friend Eric, who is a Christian and never-Mormon, who just moved to Utah about 5 months ago, has experienced this treatment that I'm discussing, on the FAIRBOARDS, which are supposedly full of die-hard, faithful TBMS. He also has a blog and podcast and shared some of these experiences on his last podcast. He simply goes there, to FAIR, asking good, legitimate questions and starts getting blasted immediately by the nasty TBMS and then his thread, in some cases, 10 pages or longer, just gets completely deleted.

Also, people start sending him very nasty, hard-core, offensive private messages, cutting him down, calling him names, etc. They seriously consider and call themselves Christians? This is the best the Church can produce to defend their blatant lies and fraud?

I'm beginning to think that most people, who have all the facts and truth and then defend this damn Mormon cult, for the most part, fit into this category of what I'm experiencing and what Eric and many others are experiencing. They are fanatical and crazy and even if God himself came down and told them that the Mormon Church was false, they'd tell God to go F himself and then try to beat him up, while cursing like maniacs. That is who we are dealing with for the most part.

They will do anything for the Lord and to defend "his Church." There is something very fundamentally wrong with these people and like I said, I only hope that they can get that help they desperately need, before they actually hurt someone in the name of God and Mormonism. It's not too late guys to go see a psychiatrist and see if they can help you understand why you are losing your minds.

I sincerely send my best wishes to these people that are coming apart at the seams, due to what I and others are revealing about their beloved cult. Instead of attacking us, maybe you should actually read and listen to what we are saying and re-direct your anger where it belongs; against the Mormon Hierarchy that is propagating more fraud in the world every single day.

Anyway, I do apologize for not writing too much on my blog lately, as this blog of mine is VERY important to me and my heart and soul since last July; but I've been very focused on my podcast, my personal life, helping people, returning Emails, further research and study and I was also out of town for almost a week. I can't do it all guys, but I sure try, as I've been spreading myself pretty thin lately. I'm doing the best that I can and I appreciate your patience and understanding

I'll be back later today with some cool and exciting news that I think all of you will like. Good things are happening and will continue to happen as I'm completely dedicated to what I'm doing here and helping people everyday. I can't see a day where I would ever stop, as mentally tiring and exhausting as it may be sometimes, because I never get tired of helping people that need my help.

I once again, want to REALLY THANK, those of you that have sent me personal Emails, or left comments on my Mormon Truth Podcast blog, thanking me for my efforts, or telling me how I've helped you. I do need those, to boost my spirits and determination, as I'm human. No matter how strong I may seem, I have my days where I'm just drained and wonder if it's all worth it, but then I get one of those Emails or comments and I'm totally rejuvenated.

Even if I didn't get those Emails or comments, I would continue on anyway, because I know, no matter how tired I may be, that what I'm doing is important; but your Emails and comments are what give me that needed boost and strength and extra energy, when I am tired. I can't seem to get caught up on my Emails, but I'm trying hard guys, to respond to everyone of you. One day, you will get that response, if you haven't received it yet.

I have always promised that I will respond to every Email, except those that call me an f'n this and that and an adulterer, etc, but it has become very difficult to do so, because I have been receiving so many Emails. I never thought that I'd get so much response and I've been overwhelmed. Again, I'm trying as hard as I can to answer every single Email, but it may take me a while. Just know that I got your Email and that I'm grateful for it and appreciate it very much and that you will hopefully hear back from me soon.

Thank you all so much once again and if I've helped you or helped someone that you know, please take a moment and just let me know, as that is my main goal; to help people everyday to find the truth and better deal with their pain of leaving Mormonism and the discovery process that it's all a fraud. I have received some great Emails in the last week, that just confirmed how much good I'm doing and how much pain and suffering, completely and directly related to Mormonism, is out there in the world at all times.

People are suffering everyday, torn between the truth of what they now know and have discovered and their families and friends that they love. These people need all of the love, understanding and support that we can give them. People are forced, by the Mormon Church, to make a decision that nobody should have to make.

The Mormon Cult is a very destructive organization that is tearing apart relationships, not helping to bring them together as they publicly claim and deceptively pretend to be "all about Families and love." That is what they use to help suck people into their sick and twisted cult world, full of despair, division and desperation.

Their stupid, lie and fraud of a motto, set to pretty music, that "Families can be together forever", is missing the important and true ending sentence; "if they are obedient Mormons only." Eternal Families? Oh yeah, "if they are "obedient Mormons only?" If they aren't, prepare yourselves for an Eternity, yes, ETERNITY, alone, without some, or even all of those that you loved on this earth. How does this BS give anyone any hope or warm and fuzzy, burning bosom sensations? Personally, it makes me want to puke!!

Take care everyone and I greatly appreciate all of your support and kind words.

Samuel the Utahnite

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Thursday, March 02, 2006

Here Is The Complete Transcript Of Hugh Hewitt's Radio Interview With Daniel Peterson and John Butler Regarding DNA And Book Of Mormon Evidences!!

MP3 File

Here is the transcript:

HH: Welcome back America, it’s Hugh Hewitt, Last week, on February 16, to be exact, I opened up not a can of worms, but a can of chromosomes by getting on my program William Lobdell, Los Angeles Times reporter, who that day had a Page 1, above the fold story, Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted: The DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The Church says the studies are being twisted to attack its belief. There ensued three wonderful segments of controversy and a mountain of e-mail. So with the help of some Mormons out there, I've located a couple of specialists to come on from the perspective of the Church, and I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Daniel Peterson. He's a native Southern Californian, he got his undergraduate degree in Greek, and philosophy from BYU. He got his PhD from the University of California at Los Angeles. He teaches at BYU now, where he's an associate professor of Islamic studies and Arabic. And he's also a member of the Center For the Preservation of Ancient Religions Texts, CPART, which has produced a computer digitized version of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I'm also joined by Dr. John Butler, who is a project leader at the Human Identity DNA Technologies Group, Biotechnology Division for the National Institute of Standards and Technology. I'm afraid to say anything, gentlemen. I'm going to sound dumb to you two. But welcome Drs. both. Dr. Butler, let me start with you. Obviously, this article in the Los Angeles Times made some assertions about the Mormon's faith connection to DNA. Was it accurately represented, that connection?

JB: Personally, I don't think so, and it's largely because that's the way often things happen in the media, is that we try, the things are tried to be portrayed very simplified. And so, these oversimplifications, sometimes you miss the true story of what's going on.

HH: And let me begin with you, Dr. Daniel Peterson. What does the Book of Mormon state about the population of North America, six hundred years before the birth of Christ?

DP: The Book of Mormon doesn't really talk about North America. We don't know exactly where the Book of Mormon story took place. Most people who study it now think probably in Mesoamerica.

HH: Where is that, for the benefit of people like me?

DP: Mesoamerica would be essentially Central America. We're talking Southern Mexico, Northern Guatemala, probably.

HH: Okay, and who was there, and who's the subject of the Book of Mormon, for people who are not Mormons?

DP: Essentially, there are three migrations that is described in the book. One migration of non-Hebrews, quite early. And then around 600BC, the most important one in terms of the Book of Mormon story, is a small migration of maybe two dozen, three dozen people at the most, who come from Jerusalem, roughly around 600BC, just prior to the Babylonian captivity.

HH: And how did they get here?

DP: How'd they get here? By boat.

HH: All right. And so, from those two dozen, three dozen, how many spring forth in the continents?

DP: Well, the figure at the very end of the Book of Mormon have battles involving, well, for example, 23 units of 10,000. Now whether those are ideal units or not, we don't know. So relatively large population after about a thousand years. We're talking toward the end of the 4th Century AD. But we don't know whether those groups had intermarried with other groups in the course of the history of the Book of Mormon. Most likely, they did.

HH: Okay, so if we have a quarter million descendants at least partially of Jews, Dr. Butler, what is the likelihood of there being DNA traceable Jewish DNA in some of the tribes of current Central America?

JB: Well, I think that kind of goes to...I read the transcript that you had last week with Bill Lobdell, where he says at the end, how could a group of people vanish without a genetic trace, when you're measuring...and again, what you're measuring with the studies that are being done now, are the Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA. Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. Mitochondrial DNA is passed on from mother to daughter. So it doesn't capture all of the genetic variation that's within our chromosomes. But, that being said, I believe...and there was a very interesting study a couple of years ago, which makes be believe that I think it is possible for a group to vanish without a genetic trace when you're measuring these types of markers. If I could go through and explain, I'll be happy to do that, or...

HH: Please, please. Take your time. We've got five minutes.

JB: Okay.

HH: We've got lots more than five minutes. We have five minutes to the break.

JB: Okay. In June of 2003, there was an article in the American Journal of Human Genetics, and I can give you the exact reference if you want. But it was published, it's American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003, Vol. 72, Page 1370-1388. And what happened in this article is, most genetic studies that are being done are...with human history tracing human history...involve just a few samples. That may be...a few is relative. That could be hundreds, even thousands of individuals. But you're looking at living individuals and comparing one group of people, let's say Native Americans, to people in Africa or Asia or somewhere else.

HH: Right.

JB: You won't have any detailed knowledge about the genealogy of the individuals being tested.

HH: Right.

JB: It isn't happening. However, in the study that was done in June of 2003, what they did is they used very extensive genealogies from the people of Iceland. And there's a company called DECODE Genetics, which actually has traced and got all the genealogy of the people in Iceland, and actually have the DNA of everybody that lives in Iceland today. And so, in this paper, what they do is they run 131,000 people from Iceland that are born after 1972. Then they go back and they say if we go back in time, 150 years, or 300 years, can we track and find out how many of those ancestors that would have lived then would have their DNA today. So I hope that makes sense to you and to your listeners.

HH: Yes, and so, what was the result?

JB: So this was a very surprising result, because as they examined...they examined the same Y chromosome and mitochondrial markers that are being done in other studies, and these 131,000 individuals that were studied, revealed a highly skewed distribution of descendants to ancestors. And this is a direct quote from the paper. "Within the vast majority of potential ancestors, contributed one or no descendants, and a minority of ancestors, contributed large numbers of descendants." In other words, a majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago, that could not be detected based on their Y chromosome or mitochondrial DNA tests being performed. Yet, of course, they had the genealogical records showing that these people existed, and were their ancestors. So if you take this to the point at hand, if documented ancestors of 150 years ago can't be seen with Y chromosome and mitochondrial tests from modern Iceland, then why would we expect to see large amounts of Middle Eastern DNA from a people that were reported in the Book of Mormon to have migrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago.

HH: And so to use as a novice here, I want to borrow from the war debate, actually. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

JB: Correct.

HH: And is that what that study proved?

JB: Exactly.

HH: And is there any DNA study, or evidence supporting the account of the Book of

JB: Well, even...there are...what's found in all the studies, and there's hundreds of papers that have been published today on the subject, where they've run groups of people from native America, and what they find is that most of the time, there are linkages to haplotypes is what they're called, or haplagroups, that are found in people primarily of Asian origin. So that means either that Native Americans, and of course, this is following the traditional hypothesis that people are modeling this to, is that people traveled across the Bering Strait.

HH: But we're going to break, but I am understanding you say there is actually no
DNA evidence of a previous Jewish tribe from Jerusalem, not implying from that...

JB: But again, part of the problem is, how do you calibrate? What is....what would be the appropriate DNA signature for someone that lived 2,600 years ago in Jerusalem. We don't know that.

HH: But one that you would consider appropriate has not been found?

JB: No.

HH: Alright, when we come back I want to continue the conversation with Dr. Daniel Peterson and ask you Dr. Peterson about other evidences of..... for the Book of Mormon and Dr. Butler, more questions about how tests might, in fact, continue that you would think would be useful. We return...fascinating conversation....I know the phone lines are jammed again, the Emails are pouring in, 1-800520-1234, connection to the Hugh Hewitt show.....

---------Commercial Break---------

HH: Welcome back America, Hugh Hewitt, joined this segment and next, by a couple of heavy hitters, Dr. John Butler, has a PHD. with the DNA Technologies group at the National Institute for standards and technology, his doctorate of course from the University of Virginia in chemistry analytical and Dr. Daniel Peterson has his PhD. from the University of California at Los Angeles in Near Eastern Languages and cultures.

HH: Dr. Peterson, it is very serendipitous that you are here on this day. I've just got to get your reaction to this. I'm receiving news reports that after the destruction of the 1,200 year old Shiite shrine this morning, in a terrorist attack in Iraq, 90 different Sunni Mosques have been attacked with 19 deaths. I don't know how close this is to your specialty, though you teach in a near Eastern area, how important was this act of terrorism today? And how significant the blowback?

DP: It's hugely significant. It’s was a terrible attack on the Shiites. It's a..It’s an attack on their symbolic heart, on...their piety is really focused on the, on the imams, leaders, the founders of the Shiite tradition. And to have attacked a Mosque like this was deliberately inflammatory. It was designed to drive the Shiites absolutely wild, and apparently, it has.

HH: The tomb, or it’s the place where the imam Mahdi went into hiding, or I'm not quite sure what it is. Can you expand a little bit? Is that within your range?

DP: You know, I haven't heard much of the story today, I confess. I've spent the day in meetings on other topics, and I just heard about it as you were doing the lead-in to your program. So I'm a little embarrassed by that, but I believe you may be talking about the Shrine of the Imam Ali?

HH: Yes. It's the golden shrine in Samara.

DP: Yeah...oh, in Samara?

HH: Yeah.

DP: Ahh. Then I'm less familiar with that one. Yeah a...there are several important Shiite shrines that are central to Shiite ideas of pilgrimage and so on. It's one of the things that bothers the Sunnis, and especially Wahabi-style Sunni Arabs, or excuse me, Sunni Muslims, who really tend to dislike saint veneration and that sort of thing, where Shiites...

HH: Well, I don't want to get too far afield. Maybe we could get you back later this week and go over this with you, Dr. Peterson. Now I'd like to go, and I'll be back to you in a second, Dr. Butler on the DNA stuff. The Book of Mormon has been studied, debated, criticized, debunked, attacked, upheld, died for, martyred over, the subject of persecution for years.

DP: Right.

HH: And now, at BYU, and my old friend Neal Maxwell would tell me, there was research going into the discovery of historical affirmation of its text. What's the strongest bit of evidence that the Church puts forward as validating its story?

DP: Well, I don't think the Church is really in the business of putting forward the evidence, but some of us scholars who are interested in this sort of thing have begun to do it on our own. And the Church doesn't endorse or denounce on the whole what we do or say, so we're left to advocate our own ideas. But here are some things that I see. Now we would say first of all, you're never going to have definitive proof of the Book of Mormon, or anything else really religiously significant, probably. Not in this life. You have to go by spiritual witness on those sorts of things. But, there are...boy, we could go on for this or with this for an hour or more. To me, some of the most impressive things are the testimonies of the witnesses who saw the plates, who remain faithful to their testimony for the rest of their lives, no matter what happened to them.

HH: That's familiar of Christian apologetics...

DP: Right.

HH: ...about the 1st Century martyrs. How about archaeological or anthropological?

DP: Yeah, there are many things. I point, for example, I myself, my background is somewhat of a philological background, so I'm really impressed with the sheer complexity of the text which was dictated at an incredibly rapid pace. It's peppered with what we call Hebraisms or Semiticisms, names that seem to be authentically Hebrew in ways that Joseph Smith couldn't have known, phraseology, Hebrew-style conditional sentences that aren't even good English in the original editions, but are very good classical Hebrew. And Joseph Smith couldn't have known that. He scarcely knew English in the late 1820's. Specifically, pre-exilic symbolism that shows up, that is before the Babylonian captivity.

HH: An example of that, Doctor?

DP: Yeah, in first Nephi 11, one of the earliest chapters in the book, you have an example of the representation of a divine, the mother of the Divine child, Mary, holding the baby Jesus. And she's equated with a tree. Now that's, I think, specifically tying into imagery that would have been familiar to the pre-exilic Hebrews, the authors of those first chapters, where...

HH: Has a structure been discovered, Dr. Peterson, similar to some of the structures of Old Testament and New Testament Bible, that are traced to, say, Jacob's well, or David's escape route? That sort of thing?

DP: Well, you could...our problem in the New World is the archeology is far less developed than in the old. We're talking about the pre-classic period. In most cases, we don't even know the names of the places we're looking at. The ruins are there. It's not that these people disappeared without a trace. It's that we don't know exactly how to recognize the traces. But you do have, in areas where the archeology is a little better, like in the Arabian Peninsula, we have found specific names that show up in the Book of Mormon, and now have been found in the Arabian Peninsula along the route that the Book of Mormon people would have taken. And they date to specifically that period.

HH: I’m coming back with my two experts, that was Dr. Daniel Peterson of...of the um..where are you teaching now....BYU?


HH: And Dr. John Butler of the DNA Technologies group at the National Institute for standards and technology, don’t go anywhere, more conversation and your calls coming up on the Hugh Hewitt show.

--------Commercial Break---------

HH: Welcome back America, Hugh Hewitt, updating the situation in Iraq from the blog, Iraq The Model- President Talabani has promised to make rebuilding of the shrine his personal responsibility-the Head of the Sunni endowment sheikh Ahmed al-Samarra'I announces that he will allocate $1.4 million for rebuilding of the shrine from Sunni endowment.-Huge demonstrations in many of Iraq's provinces tonight where thousands and thousands of people are joining up to condemn the attack.-The top 4 Shia Ayatollahs are meeting at Sistani's home to discuss-The Association of Muslim scholars and the Islamic Party have condemned the "criminal act".-Retaliatory attacks are growing but President Jafari, Prime Minister Jafari is calling for national unity and there are cooler heads attempting to keep the peace in Iraq, more as it develops. I’m joined by Dr. John Butler, project leader in Human Identity DNA Technologies groups, from the National Institute of Standard and Technology, and Dr. Daniel Peterson of the BYU faculty, where he is also deeply involved with the Islamic studies and Arabic department, as well as with the CPART, an effort to preserve ancient religious texts.

HH: Dr. Butler, I'd like to go back to you.

JB: Okay.

HH: What do DNA studies tell us about common human beginnings?

JB: What do they tell us about common human beginnings?

HH: Yeah. How many ancestors are there? Is it a Genesis narrative? Is there any support...or is DNA just off of the religious people's ability to deal with?

JB: Well, what's done traditionally with these human migration studies, which is what you're talking about here, is you make measurements between different groups of people that are living today, and there's a big project going on, the Genographic Project, where they're trying to collect 100,000 samples from various groups around the world, and then use those to try to fit with different models, where the people may have come from.

HH: And is it proving successful?

JB: They're collecting data, and the data, I think, is very interesting. What they do is they collect Y chromosome information, so they collect usually about a dozen different sites on the Y chromosome, and measure these different markers, which give you what's called a haplotype. And they also measure, they sequence little sections of mitochondrial DNA, which is passed from mother to daughter. And so you're able to show linkage between different groups. That doesn't show specific groups. Again, genealogically, it just shows general broad, broad strokes of a brush, basically.

HH: And in that research, is there anything to, as the Los Angeles Times put it, shake the foundation of a Mormon's faith?

JB: I don't believe so, because you don't...I mean, it's telling generally what's going on, in terms of history, with lots of assumptions behind that. But again, it's different than what...I work in forensic DNA. That's what I do. I've written the text that's used all over the world in forensic DNA. And so, in forensic DNA, you have basically a chain of custody, where you can trace a link between a DNA profile that's produced, that goes into court, from the original crime scene evidence. And it's a little bit different here, because you don't have that...there's no such chain of custody that exists, certainly for DNA from anybody that may have been in the Book of Mormon, or from any other ancient people. You...what they do...all the published migration studies simply report what the various groups of people living today, if they have various similarities in their

DNA. And from there, the scientists then extrapolate and interpret that these various groups must have had ancestors in common, which would lead to similar patters in their descendants.

HH: Now I want...before I go back to Professor Peterson, I also want to ask you about the research scientist, Southerton, quoted in the L.A. Times article. Is he reliable, in your view?

JB: Well, his background, from what I understand, having researched a little bit about what he's published, he's published a couple of articles. He does plant DNA or something. And certainly, he's read up on things that have happened with human DNA, but I’ve published 80 articles with human DNA, work for forensic science, and human identity studies with Y chromosome getting back to your question, I don't think that he sees the picture correctly with how DNA can be done, and primarily because you don't have a calibration point. You don't know...just like in forensic science, you have a suspect and you have evidence. DNA doesn't work in a vacuum. You get a result, you have to compare it to something else. So measuring all of the DNA of people today, you can make some assumptions, but you can't zero in and answer a definitive question about a specific person that lived many thousands of years ago.

HH: So Dr. Peterson, when Southerton says he found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today's American Indians or Pacific Islanders, that does not upset you in the least, or cause you to wonder in the least?

DP: No, not even slightly. I don't expect to find Middle Eastern DNA.

HH: Not in the least?

DP: No, it would be nice if we found it, but if we found it, we'd wonder was this later pollution of the lines, in effect, from times after Columbus? We wouldn't know exactly what it was. And if we did find Semitic DNA, if such a thing can be said to exist, then that wouldn't necessarily prove the Book of Mormon, either.

HH: Alright, let’s go get a couple of calls in...Albert- Indiana...welcome to the program Albert, quick question please....
Albert: Yeah, I joined the Mormon Church about 30 years ago and I’m in the process of conversion to Roman Catholicism, my kids are..

HH: I’ve gotta get a question Albert..quick.
Albert: You know, based on the fact that there is no evidence at all archaeologically or linguistically for The Book of Mormon and now we have the DNA studies, it seems to me that this is just the nail in the coffin.

HH: Alright Dr. Peterson, your response

DP: My response would be um..look I just, you know, I just gave a few pieces of evidence I could go on for an hour or two, in fact I routinely do, um, listing other items of evidence, so to say that there is no linguistic or archaeological evidence for The Book of Mormon is simply untrue and an archaeologist friend of mine, a very eminent archaeologist, Mesoamerican specialist argues that in fact the archaeological evidence, the picture, the overall picture, is now moving strongly in the direction of The book of Mormon in terms of chronological parallels and so on.

HH: I’d like to get him, I’d like to talk to him here at some point. Joe in Tarzana, go ahead, be quick Joe.

Joe: Thank you guys for this show said that there is no chain of custody for the DNA and that’s like, like kind of prima facia obvious but um isn’t the assertion of the Mormon Church or Joseph Smith, that these people are descendants of the middle east, isn’t that the chain of custody?

HH: Joe, thank you for the question, let’s go to you Dr. Butler

JB: Yes, yes that is the assertion, that the people today are descendants, but I made the point earlier that you can loose a genetic signature based on dilution over time and loss and I illustrated that through that one paper that was published, a very interesting paper, but more importantly, we don’t know what the genetic signature would..would look like from someone that lived that long ago and so we have no calibration point so we don’t have anything you can scientifically test.

HH: Dr. John Butler of the National Institutes of Standards and Technology, Dr. Daniel Peterson, thanks for staying up late on the East Coast, Dr. Butler, and in Utah, Dr. Peterson. I appreciate your spending the time and getting equal time in, and we'll do it again. And send me the archaeologist thing. I'm fascinated by it. I just gotta go back to the news, Dr. and Dr., thank you, it is the Hugh Hewitt show. Coming right back.


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